Should there be an asterisk next to the home run record?

[Franklinnoble]

Obviously, the players who have smashed Roger Maris's home run record in recent years were juiced. That record, and the career home runs record, is being tarnished by the not-so-shocking revelation that today's comically overmuscled power hitters have been taking steroids all along.

Does major league baseball need to step in and do something to correct the statistical anomalies that have been created? Or is the notion of the "statistical integrity of the game" a simple and naive contrivance that needs to be abandoned anyway?

[SirFozzie]

I say what I say to all these idiotic ideas:

Post Proof that they were on juice (and I don't mean circumstancial evidence, I mean HARD, drug test locked down proof) and we'll consider it.

Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

[rkmsuf]

There's nothing they can do. The only recourse is not cheering or watching when Bonds passes Ruth or Aaron...

At the time it was exciting but looking back what a joke that McGwire/Sosa year was and what a joke Bond's 73 were...

The amazing part is fellow players stick up for these cheating punks...morons...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I say what I say to all these idiotic ideas:

Post Proof that they were on juice (and I don't mean circumstancial evidence, I mean HARD, drug test locked down proof) and we'll consider it.

Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

Obviously, you've got your head up yours.

[JAG]

I think you can pretty much forget statistical integrity of the game at this point. I think many people pretty much discount everything that's happened statistically the past 15 years or so anyway.

[albionmoonlight]

Baseball did not have a policy in place that could detect and/or prevent these guys from being juiced when they set the records. Baseball should not get to rewrite history and say that "we should have been able to detect and stop these guys from using steroids, so we will go back in time and asterisk the records."

Baseball set the stage. It should have to live with the records produced by that stage.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Obviously, you've got your head up yours.

IE, I can't prove anything so I'll just run my mouth over and over again.


As I said, if there's real proof, fine, let's do something about it. Otherwise, the record book stands. Rumor and Innuendo do NOT have a place in the record book.

[rkmsuf]

I'm shocked that some of the old guard hasn't been more vocal. Obviously Willie Mays can't say anything but where are all these other guys?

[SirFozzie]

a lot of the old guard spent their time blasted on alkyhol and drugs, and those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, neh?

[digamma]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Baseball set the stage. It should have to live with the records produced by that stage.

I'd argue that baseball did more than set the stage. To continue with your analogy, baseball not only set the stage, it advertised, underwrote and marketed the play. And it cashed in the receipt from the gate. Baseball saved itself with the home run chase of 1998, and capitalized on Bonds as well. Now we want asterisks?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

a lot of the old guard spent their time blasted on alkyhol and drugs, and those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, neh?

That is not the issue. I doubt say Mickey Mantle was aided by his nightly activities. Last time I checked it was harder to hit the little ball while drunk or hungover.

[JAG]

My favorite is the pitcher who threw a no-hitter while tripping on LSD and said the ball was telling hiim what pitches to throw.

[SirFozzie]

rkmsuf: Ok.. another example then. Greenies.

I'm, pretty sure THAT helped old time players out...

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

rkmsuf: Ok.. another example then. Greenies.

I'm, pretty sure THAT helped old time players out...

Nevermind. No one wants to see anything. All the visual evidence, all the homeruns, the big bodies. Eveyone is just imagining it all. Gee whizz...

[Franklinnoble]

You honestly believe that there's even the slightest possibility that Barry Bonds DID NOT take steroids?

[SirFozzie]

HARD proof.

Not innuendo.

Bonds works out about 6 hours per day. There's a lot more sports training in the offseason compared to past years.

But nooooooo.... it HAS to be steroids.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Nevermind. No one wants to see anything. All the visual evidence, all the homeruns, the big bodies. Eveyone is just imagining it all. Gee whizz...

Let's also remember to imagine the former players who have come forward and admitted using steroids. That was bad Chinese food talking.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

You honestly believe that there's even the slightest possibility that Barry Bonds DID NOT take steroids?

Actually yes. I'm not sure, but remember, hard proof. EVERY player gets tested this year. Names come out, you know? I guess we'll see whether he is on the juice or not. Isn't it amazing how he maintains his look while other "juice" candidates like Giambi et all came into camp talking about their speed training slimming them down? Either he's on the juice and figures that he can beat the tests, or he was never on the juice.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JAG

Let's also remember to imagine the former players who have come forward and admitted using steroids. That was bad Chinese food talking.

That proves that those players used steroids. That's hard proof, as I said. That doesn't prove that all statiscal leaders use them. That's rumor and innuendo.

See the difference?

[Daimyo]

If everybody is taking steriods doesn't that just raise the level of competition? Who's to say the people dominating now wouldn't dominate just the same had steriods never been discovered? Its not like any scrub off the streets can suddenly turn themselves into a 60 HR hitter just by juicing up.

With or without steriods, stats are only useful in the context of their era and this is just another thing to take into context. Baseball should do their best to rid the sport of illegal drugs, but I don't think you should discount anything that's happened over the last ten years (at least no more than you usually would in accounting for the differences in eras).

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

You honestly believe that there's even the slightest possibility that Barry Bonds DID NOT take steroids?

Yeah, I'm 99% sure he took steroid precursors (like most players) that are legal and have a lot of the same effects as steroids. I think he may have even taken Human Growth Hormone (technically a non-steroid that was all the rage and legal for a while).

You see NFL linebackers his height and 30 lbs heavier (all muscle) and they are peeing in the cup all the time. Who is to say Bonds couldn't get that big (and still be way lighter than an NFL player) with hard work and legal supplements? I can't.

[miami_fan]

Look whether any of us like it or not Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, et al have never tested positive for steriods so their accomplishements should stand as is.

[rkmsuf]

They don't test

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Look whether any of us like it or not Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, et al have never tested positive for steriods so their accomplishements should stand as is.

Exactly.

Nice to see even with a biased poll, the poll is running against the asterisk

[Franklinnoble]

It's not rumor and innuendo when BALCO says that they SOLD STEROIDS TO BARRY BONDS. What? He was just buying them for Jeff Kent?

I don't expect to have video tape of Bonds shooting up, and I don't expect that Bonds is on anything that will show up on a drug test. But if you want to believe he's clean, go right ahead. Oh, and O.J. really was innocent, Pete Rose never bet on baseball, and Bill Clinton did not have sex with that woman...

These f*ckers lie. They lie all the damned time until it's physically impossible to lie any more. Bonds is no exception, and it's naive to assume otherwise.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

It's not rumor and innuendo when BALCO says that they SOLD STEROIDS TO BARRY BONDS.

Can you provide a link to that? I haven't read anything like that so far.

[SirFozzie]

John: Front page of ESPN.com

"Federal agents were told that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield were among a group of athletes that received steroids from BALCO, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. All three players have denied steroid use."

Once again, that they were SENT the stuff. Not that they requested it. Not that they did it.

It's like sending a pornographic video to someone, and then having someone claim that the someone is a porn freak.

[Franklinnoble]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

John: Front page of ESPN.com

"Federal agents were told that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield were among a group of athletes that received steroids from BALCO, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. All three players have denied steroid use."

Once again, that they were SENT the stuff. Not that they requested it. Not that they did it.

It's like sending a pornographic video to someone, and then having someone claim that the someone is a porn freak.

Give me a break

[SirFozzie]

ok.. what do you want broken?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

John: Front page of ESPN.com

"Federal agents were told that Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield were among a group of athletes that received steroids from BALCO, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. All three players have denied steroid use."

Once again, that they were SENT the stuff. Not that they requested it. Not that they did it.

It's like sending a pornographic video to someone, and then having someone claim that the someone is a porn freak.

I've read that story and it does NOT say anyone at BALCO says they sent steroids to Bonds et al. It says someone (unknown role in the affair) says they did it. Anonymous sources mean very little in this discussion and it is very different than someone at BALCO saying steroids were given to Bonds and the rest.

[JAG]

Foz, not sure why you're on such a crusade here, but here's a hard fact for you...
MLB tested players randomly last year and 7% tested positive. This is when baseball players knew they were going to be tested (and so had a chance to stop taking them) and also knowing that this test certainly doesn't catch every player that uses them. Are you really going to tell me you don't think there's a steroid problem in baseball? Do you think there is a chance that a statistical leader may have taken steroids? I do. I don't need proof in my hand that it happened. All the circumstantial evidence builds a good enough case for me.

[rkmsuf]

I doubt even a signed letter from GOD himself would convince baseball lapdogs...

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I say what I say to all these idiotic ideas:

Post Proof that they were on juice (and I don't mean circumstancial evidence, I mean HARD, drug test locked down proof) and we'll consider it.

Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

Um, you do know that McGwire confessed to being on andro when he broke Maris's record, right?

As for proof re. Giambi, Sheffield, Bonds, et al. You'll see proof during if not before the trials.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

I've read this - I don't think it says anyone at BALCO said that. I'm always loath to believe newspaper writers using anonymous sources (especially when they write it to imply it is some with more authority saying it). Until we know who these accusations are coming from, I don't think they are worth anything.

[rkmsuf]

I swear Bonds could test positive and that wouldn't even convince you. Somehow the test would be tainted or it was a set up or something...

He could confess and people would say he confessed due to the pressure and he actually didn't do it.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

They don't test

And unfortunately those are the rules MLB has been under for the past 100 years. And as far as the players lying about being on the juice. That is irrelevant now just as a negative drug test to "prove" they were not on the juice 5 years ago. All MLB can do know it start from right now and clean up the game. If they put on astrisk because of the specualtions about steriods, then they need to add astrisks for the 154 game season, the DH, smaller ballparks, the breaking of the color barrier, the Dead Ball era, expansion etc

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by JAG

Foz, not sure why you're on such a crusade here, but here's a hard fact for you...
MLB tested players randomly last year and 7% tested positive. This is when baseball players knew they were going to be tested (and so had a chance to stop taking them) and also knowing that this test certainly doesn't catch every player that uses them. Are you really going to tell me you don't think there's a steroid problem in baseball? Do you think there is a chance that a statistical leader may have taken steroids? I do. I don't need proof in my hand that it happened. All the circumstantial evidence builds a good enough case for me.

I have no doubt that some baseball players take steroids and some statistical leaders probably have too. However, pointing fingers at particular players is a witchhunt, not deduction.

[JAG]

And just to throw it out there, baseball's steroid policy is a joke. Kudos for Smoltz for calling it out.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JAG

Foz, not sure why you're on such a crusade here, but here's a hard fact for you...
MLB tested players randomly last year and 7% tested positive. This is when baseball players knew they were going to be tested (and so had a chance to stop taking them) and also knowing that this test certainly doesn't catch every player that uses them. Are you really going to tell me you don't think there's a steroid problem in baseball? Do you think there is a chance that a statistical leader may have taken steroids? I do. I don't need proof in my hand that it happened. All the circumstantial evidence builds a good enough case for me.

That # includes a percentage of players who decided that the policy was a joke and did their best to force the harder line by not taking the test, which counted as a positive.

Andro wasn't illegal at the time that McGwire broke the record, was it? (I'm not sure on that to be honest, but yes, it would affect the 70 if it was made illegal PRIOR to the 70.)

Here's a little catchphrase for rkmsuf, franklinnoble et all. "Innocent until proven guilty".

Hopefully the truth will come out either way, and we can quit this "he has to be.. " lynch mob crap.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I swear Bonds could test positive and that wouldn't even convince you. Somehow the test would be tainted or it was a set up or something...

He could confess and people would say he confessed due to the pressure and he actually didn't do it.

I don't like Bonds - I have no joy in seeing him break all sorts of records. I would believe he took steroids if there was some credible, direct evidence. Right now, there is NO direct evidence. And his growth in size is less than that of other athletes who are tested all the time. And you also continue to ignore every argument about precursors and HGH and good ol' fashioned hard work. His affiliation with BALCO is ugly, but not despositive.

[Franklinnoble]

The dissention in this thread is due to the fact that there are some people here who believe in moral absolutes, and others that prefer to enjoy a legalistic gray area.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. Baseball players are juiced. As JAG said, random testing has proved this. Bonds's personal trainer of several years has been caught illegally distributing steroids - and yet some insist that there's not sufficient proof that Bonds is on steroids.

What's very telling here is that no one is trying to say that steroid use isn't wrong - but those who support Bonds are definding the gray area he's hiding in right now.

There's a big difference between "legal and illegal" and "right and wrong." Maybe Bonds will never be convicted of anything illegal, but he sure as hell was wrong.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by JAG

And just to throw it out there, baseball's steroid policy is a joke. Kudos for Smoltz for calling it out.

On this, we agree.

[rkmsuf]

Great so they'll go to trial, prove the players received the stuff and that's it. I doubt there's film of anyone sticking a needle in their ass.

Baseball will test but those tests will remain a secret. Names will not be named.

It's cheating and the turning a blind eye to it only supports the notion that baseball is run by idiots. It takes the freaking federal government to bring to a head an important issue for crying out loud.

[damnMikeBrown]

[quote=SirFozzie]HARD proof.


Bonds works out about 6 hours per day. There's a lot more sports training in the offseason compared to past years.
QUOTE]

It's not hard proof, but it is very damning evidence.

Steroids don't make you bigger, they reduce your recovery time. If you bang the weights (and this is a general statement) any longer than an hour a day, 5-6 days a week, you're not helping yourself. Your muscles can only take a certain work load before they are over worked.

As time goes by, the athlete ages. Age INCREASES the amount of time needed for recovery. A 38yr old man would be destroying any potential gains he'd make by putting that much work into his body. Not only destroying his gains, but actually cutting his current fitness level as his body catabolised itself to try and keep repairing itself. A 36yr old man putting 6hours of anything above very low intensity work into his body, daily, and gaining from it, is getting chemical assistance.

I have first hand seen the effects of steroids, pro-hormones, and pro-steroids. They are real, they are large. The stuff McGwire was taking(Andro, a Pro Hormone) is like calling a Ford Taurus a stock car ready vehicle for NASCAR. It is 5 generations ago, and almost negligible in it's effects. The designer ph's and ps's that are available now are absolutely stunning in their effectiveness.

Claims can easily and truthfully be made that no steroids were taken, if they were taking pro-hormones. Those are compounds that are 1 step away from steroids, such that they become a steroid once administered in the body. The "cream" statement from that attorney? Those are how most PH's are delivered, through topical cream.

Who the hell cares about baseball anyway though. Other than making fun text sims, it's good for nothing. They cancelled the World Series. They can go juice to the gills for all I care. They'll still not get a single $ of mine.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I don't like Bonds - I have no joy in seeing him break all sorts of records. I would believe he took steroids if there was some credible, direct evidence. Right now, there is NO direct evidence. And his growth in size is less than that of other athletes who are tested all the time. And you also continue to ignore every argument about precursors and HGH and good ol' fashioned hard work. His affiliation with BALCO is ugly, but not despositive.

That's fine but you'll likely never get the answer. By the time everyone is done running around he'll be retired.

Beyond hard evidence you have to form an opinion by putting together the evidence you do have. All of it points to juice. It's not just Bonds but he's the highest profile...

[John Galt]

Whoa there - working out 6 hours a day is completely reasonable for a professional athlete during the offseason. That workout can include strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, practice, timing, etc. For a professional baseball player, there are boatloads of exercises and stretches that are done on a regular basis. 6 hours a day of pure weightlifting would be worthless - 6 hours a day of combined, cross-training workout is totally fine.

[SirFozzie]

In other words, we're back at step 1: I don't have any direct proof, but I say he did, and despite any hard proof, you are all wrong for doubting me.

[Franklinnoble]

If you buy a text sim that's licensed to use real MLB team names and player names, then they're getting your $.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

That's fine but you'll likely never get the answer. By the time everyone is done running around he'll be retired.

Beyond hard evidence you have to form an opinion by putting together the evidence you do have. All of it points to juice. It's not just Bonds but he's the highest profile...

You better hope you are never accused of doing something illegal based on such flimsy evidence. Personal associations and muscle growth are barely passable for suspicion and you are ready to write him off entirely. That's crazy.