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Old 04-20-2012, 04:42 PM   #51
Kozure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
I have no proof and haven't tested it, but my "sense of smell" from watching games in Solevision makes me suspect that the injury frequency on ST plays is lower than it is on normal plays in FOF.

Yeah, no real increase to injuries. Though some believe that there is a fatigue factor for players on ST, so they don't play starters. I haven't noticed it. All I notice is i sometimes hold other teams to -5 yard punt returns and 2 yard kickoff returns. Which is what really matters to me.
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Old 04-22-2012, 03:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Kozure View Post
I'm assuming u will spread it around and have ST guy at all positions. Typically, I'd focus on 2 at safety, corner, OLB, 1-2 at ILB, 2 at receiver, one at TE and 2 at RB/FB. Leave good O and D linemen turned on too since they see time as well.

Like I said, u need to be anal about it to get a really good unit together. But if you do, you'll see ridiculous results against anyone who isn't doing the same thing.

Only thing I'll add-it's not a disagreement-resting your older stud O-Lineman (a % of them) lets your younger backup linemen get experience, even at different positions. Does it affect your ST peformance? Probably, but some ofthe undeveloped young lineman actually seem to make tackles occosianally, and it rests your starters so your O line remains fresh in the 4th quarter. Also, if you have a starter at any position with low endurance, playing them on ST may reduce their effectiveness at their starting postion. You have to make decisions.....
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:28 AM   #53
Autumn
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Do we have any evidence that special teams play effects endurance, or the ability to stay on the field for offense or defense? That's one of those things that makes real world sense but may not have any actual impact in the game.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:44 PM   #54
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I really wish st plays helped condition players with seasonal rust.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:08 PM   #55
Firefly
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Exactly. It's a real pain, especially with kick returners.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:59 PM   #56
Kozure
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Originally Posted by chinaski View Post
I really wish st plays helped condition players with seasonal rust.

I don't think it should. I look at seasonal rust as more of a timing thing in which a player needs to play his position (receiver, QB, TE or whatever) during the game in order to kick off the rust and get in sync with his teammates. I don't see special teams as a way of doing that.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:01 PM   #57
aston217
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I think ST abilities ought to be immune from seasonal rust, though. (They aren't, right?)
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:11 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by aston217 View Post
I think ST abilities ought to be immune from seasonal rust, though. (They aren't, right?)
It doesn't appear that they are. I've never tested it, though.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:31 AM   #59
aston217
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In the OSFL I decided to take an in-depth look at when my activated special teams players were playing. Went through a few plays in a game log and checked the "ST plays" heading of the box score.

This isn't going to offer too much in the ways of "strats you should employ", but it might be edifying to a certain degree. Take it for what it's worth. A few interesting nuggets before I just dump all the data:
  • Unrelated to this study, but 1 minute in ST TC may result in a high number of penalties on returns. Someone mentioned this and it's something I noticed as well in sole.
  • You have 10 guys + K on kickoffs. 9 guys + 2 KR (it may just be 1) on kick returns. 5 guys + 1LS + 4OL on punt coverage.
  • Don't know what to say of punt return teams. Weeird stuff (see below).
  • Although, 2DL+3LB seems to be the baseline on punt coverage, with 1 PR.
  • I looked at two separate punt coverage teams, and they were identical. Neither included my #1 gunner. Probably the most significant thing on this list, one gunner per punt coverage unit.
  • With no OL active, the game appears to strive for your backups, and possibly favors youth, on your Punt Cover squads.
  • With no DL active, the game appears to just hand out 2 "Special Teams Play" credits at random, starter or backup, and sometimes both to the same guy on the same play, on Punt Return squads. This could be limited to just DEs, but I'm not sure.
  • A high-ST RB seems to be very valuable. Game doesn't really care that he's my 8th year, 74/74 starter, he's on every coverage/return team and is my only activated RB.

Now for the data.

List of ST active players
WR Fletcher [100] [starter] [gunner]
RB Giang [97] [starter]
FS Foster [93] [starter] [gunner]
WR Foley [82] [starter]
CB Robinette [80] [starter]
MLB Eicholz [74] [backup]
OLB O'Donnell [74] [backup]
FB Duran [72] [starter]
TE Bradford [69] [starter]
CB Prescott [66/77] [starter]
WR Reynolds [61] [backup]
CB Chmelik [58] [backup]
WR Mansker [57] [backup]
QB Branch [backup]

There are 13 guys here, plus a QB3 I forgot to turn off, but he doesn't matter. Worth noting, OLB O'Donnell's 74 > MLB Eicholz's 74 and it's unclear, out of the 61-58-57 guys that round out the list, who has the best ST, unmasked.

FGs kicks / blocks

Per the box score, no Special Teams plays are logged for PATs.

Apparently they are logged for FGs but I didn't get around to this.

Although, there were 20 ST plays credited to DL, 14 of them having to come on punt returns. That leave 6 for the two field goals we defended, so I'm guessing 3 DL + 8 other guys on field goal defense.

Kickoff Coverage
I looked at one kickoff, and the following players were part of the kickoff team:

RB Giang [97] [starter]
FB Duran [72] [starter]
TE Bradford [69] [starter]
WR Fletcher [100] [starter] [gunner]
WR Mansker [57] [backup]
WR Reynolds [61] [backup]
LB Eicholz [74] [backup]
CB Robinette [80] [starter]
CB Chmelik [58] [backup]
S Foster [93] [starter] [gunner]

K Parrish [of course]

Absent from my ST active list of 13: (starting) WR Foley (82), (starting) CB Prescott (66/77), (backup) LB O'Donnell (74).

Breakdown: 6 starters, 4 backups
Position breakdown: RB+FB+TE+3WR+MLB+2CB+S

Punt Coverage
RB Giang [97] [starter]
FB Duran [72] [starter]
TE Bradford [69] [starter]
WR Mansker [57] [backup]
S Foster [93] [starter]

C Wells [LS]
C Fujimoto [backup]
T Keisel [backup]
T Sinclair [backup]
G Giles [starter]


P Compton [of course]
italics -- not activated for special teams

As mentioned, rex seems to like backup OL. In this case, I didn't have a fourth backup active, and it went with the youngest starter, Giles, for what appears to be every time. Only one gunner here, and it was my #2. He is the lesser overall player and maybe that's what Rex went with.

Absent from my ST active list: (starting, gunner #1) WR Fletcher (100), (starting) WR Foley (82), (starting) CB Robinette (80), (backup) MLB Eicholz (74), (backup) OLB O'Donnell (74), (backup) WR Reynolds (61), (backup) CB Chmelik (58).

Breakdown: 4 starters, 1 backup
Pos Breakdown: RB+FB+TE+WR+S

Kick Return
RB Giang [97] [starter]
FB Duran [72] [starter]
TE Bradford [69] [starter]
WR Foley [82] [starter] [#2 KR]
WR Reynolds [61] [backup]
WR Mansker [57] [backup]
MLB O'Donnell [74] [backup]
OLB Eicholz [74] [backup]
CB Chmelik [58] [backup]
CB Robinette [80] [starter]

WR Rosalez [#1 KR]

Absent from my ST active list of 13: (starter) WR Fletcher (100), (starter) S Foster (93), (starter) CB Prescott (66/77)

I'm unsure if WR Foley is in here because he's ST-active, or because he's the #2 KR. Going with real world logic here, the latter makes most sense.

Breakdown: 4 starters, 5 backups
Pos Breakdown: RB+FB+TE+2WR+2LB+2CB

Punt Return
RB Giang [97] [starter]
WR Reynolds [61] [backup]
MLB Eicholz [74] [backup]
MLB Eicholz [74] [backup]

TE Ballard [40] [backup]
CB Horton [20] [backup]
DE Tyler [backup]
DE Tyler [backup]

MLB Conant [32] [backup]
S Bynaker [34/78] [backup]

CB/PR Easton [of course]

Now is where things get interesting. Of note:
-I looked at three separate plays.
-#2: same as listed, but [DE Tyler + DE Tyler] became [DE Tyler + starting DE Logan].
-#3: same as listed, except [CB Horton + S Bynaker] became [CB Horton + CB Horton].
-2 DL and 3 LB. I looked at three separate punt return plays. It routinely ignored my second activated LB. Once in favor for my starting, deactivated OLB.
-A buncha random guys who aren't activated are appearing here, to my annoyance: TE Ballard, CB Horton, S Bynaker. In each case there are active players at the same position being ignored. In the CB case there's an active backup being ignored.
-MLB Eicholz made 2 appearances in every punt return.

Pos breakdown: RB+WR+TE, and then 2DL+3LB+2DB seems to be the common thread here.

This basically just goes along with what Koz, et. al. have been saying here, although one thing I'm uncertain about now is how much the ST bars of guys matter on returns (other than for the returners themselves). Punt coverage is what I want most to figure out. Seems a concern that for whatever reason, the best of my ST active guys aren't getting the nod there.
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Last edited by aston217 : 06-02-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:04 PM   #60
gstelmack
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If it becomes necessary, I can tell you exactly who is on the field for specific special teams plays. We have that information in the Solevision files.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:08 PM   #61
aston217
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I don't know if I would say "necessary", but if there's an automated way of easily looking at it via your utilities, that would be helpful.
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:02 PM   #62
Autumn
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It would be interesting to see. I'm curious how much it matters to get the right spread of positions in your special team guys, versus just having a glut of the same position but high ratings.

Anecdotally it seems to me that the ratings of your other guys on the return unit must matter, in that I've seen big differences between taking a return guy from a team not focusing on special teams and adding him to one that does. It seems the supporting cast matters.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:42 AM   #63
helseld
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Do not encourage anyone without a special teams bar. This includes QBs, Lineman, Punters/Kickers. It may seem counter intuitive, but I see much better returns for my team, and much worse returns for my opponents by doing it this way. Try to keep your 11 best ST guys on the field and nobody else.

Would an exception to this be a guy with a high ST rating who undergoes a position change to one that doesn't have an ST bar?
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:35 PM   #64
Kozure
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Would an exception to this be a guy with a high ST rating who undergoes a position change to one that doesn't have an ST bar?

I dont think anyone knows how that would work. It's not a situation I've been in with a player. My gut says to not recommend him.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:38 PM   #65
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I dont think anyone knows how that would work. It's not a situation I've been in with a player. My gut says to not recommend him.

I have "checked" my Defensive Linemen to see what they look like with a ST bar. None actually had a bar worth attempting this.

I'd imagine it works the same as with an Offensive Lineman without a Long Snapping bar.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:39 PM   #66
aston217
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I've had a few DL with quite nice ST bars. 56/77, things like that.

Of course, that wouldn't be good enough for you
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:44 PM   #67
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I've had a few DL with quite nice ST bars. 56/77, things like that.

Of course, that wouldn't be good enough for you

56/77?!?! Cut him now! Friggin' worthless DL...

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Old 09-17-2012, 12:46 PM   #68
Ben E Lou
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For clarity in this long thread, I've added brief instructions in the first post, and am pasting them here as well:

BEN EDIT:
TO KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES IN SPECIAL TEAMS:

1.
Get 10ish guys on your roster with high ST ratings. I shoot for 80ish and above, but if everyone is doing this, then probably 65ish would have to do.
2. Each season, "Encourage" your top 10ish ST-rated guys.
3. "Discourage" EVERYONE else. (That means every DL and OL player, just to be safe.)

When you do this, you will be able to keep up. If nearly everyone does this, we'll see things come back closer to even in ST performance spread. And people who do not do this will get dominated on ST every week.
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:55 PM   #69
Nemesis
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Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
For clarity in this long thread, I've added brief instructions in the first post, and am pasting them here as well:

BEN EDIT:
TO KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES IN SPECIAL TEAMS:

1.
Get 10ish guys on your roster with high ST ratings. I shoot for 80ish and above, but if everyone is doing this, then probably 65ish would have to do.
2. Each season, "Encourage" your top 10ish ST-rated guys.
3. "Discourage" EVERYONE else. (That means every DL and OL player, just to be safe.)

When you do this, you will be able to keep up. If nearly everyone does this, we'll see things come back closer to even in ST performance spread. And people who do not do this will get dominated on ST every week.

What's your opinion on the rust factor? Is it worth it to get the players who are solid ST'rs, but won't start or play alot of snaps for you, some Preseason playing time to knock rust off?
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:58 PM   #70
Ben E Lou
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What's your opinion on the rust factor? Is it worth it to get the players who are solid ST'rs, but won't start or play alot of snaps for you, some Preseason playing time to knock rust off?
I'm not sure and I don't feel like testing it, so I do my best to knock the rust off.
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