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Old 08-02-2009, 05:56 AM   #51
Dandelion
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Well, the football definition of "strong side" gets a little complicated in a few situations, but by and large, the strong side is the side with the tight end. And pretty much by definition of the position, the flanker is the WR who lines up off the line of scrimmage, because that keeps the TE on that side eligible.

So, in anything approaching a "base" offense, that's the definition of being the flanker -- you're the WR on the strong side, lined up outside the TE and off the line a couple of steps (technically in the backfield). So, basically, I think there's every reason to believe that we have confirmed that's how it works in FOF as well -- to switch the strong side, you essentially swap the receivers as well as the TE.

One look at my last playlog brought me these:
a) Pittsburgh: Pro formation with two tight ends, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
and
b) Pittsburgh: Five-Receiver Spread formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass
and
c) Pittsburgh: Strong formation with three wideouts, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.

As in a) there are 2 TE lining up at the LOS and the FL being a step behind on either the left or right side, it seems the side with the FL must be the strong side.

In b) there's no TE in the game. Or at least, there has to be none, though you can use a TE as WR5 for example.. So two WR step up to the LOS. And from the "Personnel - miscellaneous formations" screen it looks as if those two are the FL1 and SE1. So the line is evenly balanced left and right. So which side is the "strong side" here? The one with more WRs on it?

Then there is c) - two WR lining up on either side of the LOS - FL1 and SE1 - and FL2 in the slot. RB either left or right of the FB. Where's the strong side here?

Well.. if you start calling the plays yourself, you can see there's always the option to "view" a play before you call it. And the option to switch the strong side to the left or to the right. And what happens is, that the formations - at least the receiver and backs - are "mirrored".

So version a) shows up as: TE1 on the right side of the line at the LOS, TE2 on the left. FL1 on the right side, a step off the LOS. Once you switch strength to the left, both TE exchange places and the FL1 moves to the left side also. Even the RB and FB exchange places, with the FB taking up position on the strong side. So strong side: Side with TE1/FL1/FB on it.. ?

In version b) with strong left side, its SE1 on the LOS, wide outside right. And SE2 on the LOS, wide outside right. FL1 is left of the line, a step back from the LOS. Right beside him is WR5. And FL2 stands way out right from the line, a step off the LOS. Once you switch strength to the right, all FL/SE exchange places. So strong side: Side with FL1 on it.. ?

Then c) again.. with strength = left the SE1 lines up outside of the line on the LOS to the right. Way outside Left of the line on the LOS is FL2 on the LOS. And FL1 is on the left, a step off the LOS. FB also left of the QB. Change to strength right and all go ring around the rosie again.. So strong side: Side with FL/FB on it.. ?

To check if it's 100% right I'd have to look through all formations, but it seems secure to say: Strong side is the one with FL1 on it.. (except for Goalline formation, where it's the one with TE3 and the FB.. *grin*)

So, unless someone uses the formation personnel screens to move the players around, there should be the possibility to orient your defense around the FL1, who usually should be the "best WR" - at least in SG.. right?

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Old 08-02-2009, 05:58 AM   #52
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You're welcome.

Actually, I am planning an update to them soon. But recently life has gotten a little bit busy and I haven't had time to sit down and do it.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:47 PM   #53
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I'm not so sure what to make of your theory.. I think, there are at least some aspects of FOF2k7 that might get in the way.. for example:

- in a test game (more about that later..) my backup ILB was on the field on the second defensive play. The second TOTAL defensive play. He actually backups the WILB an SILB in my team, but both have not that bad Endurance (89 resp. 48) and both were neither injured nor tired. And both were at 100% starters playing time.. formation was a "strong man, cover 7" from the basic 3-4 I play. So what did that guy do to get on the field?
And as he did, what if it happens with other players too?

- I LOVE blitzes.. so I've set a blitz rate of 100% on all plays outside the redzone. But as it seems to me, that the game doesn't handle multiple blitzers too well, there's only one player ordered to blitz.
In 90% of the plays it's the SLB (.. and as in all 3-4 the WLB) who goes for the QBs head. In the other 10% it's either the WILB or the SILB who blitzes.
BUT.. from the Nickel or Dime formation there's a differance.. In the Nickel the WILB goes off the field to be replaced by a CB/S - okay.. so - logically - he also replaces the WILB in the blitzing sheme.. which means one less defender in the backfield, negating the backfield advantage of the Nickel defense.. I think the same holds true for the Dime..

- Blitzes again.. how comes, that although I put in 0% as the chance to blitz for the SS/FS the FS from the Dime formation - who is in there as the FS, not as an replacement for a LB - does blitz? Ok.. not often.. just as often as the 5% for WILB/SILB in my playbook allow.. but he shouldn't blitz at all.. so.. what does FOF2k7 do internally to mix that up?

- oh.. and before I forget it.. the game puts You into Nickel formation on automatic sometimes.. usually when the opponent comes up with a 4+ WR formation (and/or in the last minutes of the first and second half..) For me that messes a bit with my usual playbook.. I usually only want my guys in Nickel or Dime Formation when the go aggressively after the pass.. so it's 50/50 at agg. pass and lotsa 0 in agg. run, run and pass.. nonetheless there are the occasions when the log says: "Nickel B&R" at a 3rd and 2.. *cough*

Nonetheless I played one (!!) test match to get some data.. had to type all the stuff from the htm output into a spreadsheet.. *sigh*

here's the result for a mediocre Pittsburgh Def - 3-4, lotsa blitzes, DL, LB and Backfield all mediocre in most cases.. some Rookies in there, too.. - against an at least as bad Baltimore Ravens offense..

Off. vs. Def.
Pass vs. Agg. Pass
7/21 Completions, 83 Yard (15 YAC), 5 1st Downs, 6 Blocked/Deflected, 4 Inc, 1 Int, 2 Sack -8 Yard, 2 Penalty + 20 Yard - looks good to me...

Pass vs. Pass
6/13 Comp., 76 yard (5 YAC), 4 1st Downs, 1 TD, 1 Blocked/Deflected, 3 Inc, 1 Int, 2 Sack -17 Yard - bit high on the yards, but not too bad..

Pass vs. Run
7/12 Comp., 86 yard (13 YAC), 5 1st Downs, 1 blocked/Deflected, 1 Inc, 1 Int, 1 Sack -6 Yard, 1 Penalty -10 Yard - again, a bit high on yards, but my def sucks..

Pass vs. Agg. Run
None - I only allow Agg. Run def at 4th an 1 or 2.. ordinary run def all the rest of the way..

Run vs. Agg. Pass
4 Runs, 24 Yard, 1 1st Down - mostly from 1st and 10.. the 1st down resulted from a 2nd 10 run..

Run vs. Pass
7 Run, 30 Yard, 2 1st Down - a 2nd and 10 and a 2nd and 3 were made.. the rest came from first downs

Run vs. Run
7 Run, 25 Yard, 1 1st Down, 1 Penalty -10 Yard - again the conversion came from a 2nd and 10.. the rest were again mostly 1st and 10s..

Diverse
2 Scramble vs. Agg. Pass for 17 Yard gain, 1 1st Down - from a 3rd and 10 and a 1st and 10.. the first succeeded, the second didn't..

I have not yet gone through all the formations and the effects they might have, but it seems, the 3 Deep is the most dangerous to either run or pass. Most of the long yardage gains were against a 3 Deep.

I do NOT use any double coverage.. I tried it a couple of games and my Backs seemed to go dozy and the completion ratings didn't get lower, but higher.. and when I take a look at the messages in the log, how often my QBs stick the ball into double coverage without getting deflected or intercepted, I am not too sure that double coverage is as powerfull as it should be.. especially with the many passes going to the 2nd ord 3rd WR, TE or RB/FB

So.. my "impressions" with little - nearly no - data.. any numbercruncher out there to get us more insight?

Last edited by Dandelion : 08-02-2009 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:23 PM   #54
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Welcome to FOF, lots of things don't work you will get used to it.

Which ever side of the field has the most recievers/ tight ends at the LOS is the strong side.

The reason your ILB got on the field on the second play of the game was due to a dice roll, if anything fishy happens in FOF it gets blamed on a bad dice roll, it's a good way of covering things up.

Blitzing, if you send more than one guy, just about any guy can be the second guy who blitzes.

Double coverage, does work the higher your Read defence is the less chance he'll put the ball into double coverage or maybe the better his judgement is. Just because the defence has a receiver double teamed does n't mean they are doing it well!

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Old 08-02-2009, 06:18 PM   #55
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First off, the percentage of playtime you put into the play time screen is the percentage the guy will play on any given down. The backup ILB being in for the second play just means the dice check failed for the starter so the ILB went in.

On multiple blitzers, in the 3-4 the WLB is always rushing the passer. Not sure if he's counted as a blitzer or not, but I would suspect so.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:15 PM   #56
Dandelion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidthelid View Post
Welcome to FOF, lots of things don't work you will get used to it.

Yeah, noticed that already

Quote:
Which ever side of the field has the most recievers/ tight ends at the LOS is the strong side.

Uhm.. don't think so.. as explained further above, just check with the play formations You can call Yourself and use the "view" option.

Quote:
The reason your ILB got on the field on the second play of the game was due to a dice roll, if anything fishy happens in FOF it gets blamed on a bad dice roll, it's a good way of covering things up.

must have been a pretty bad dice roll.. there isn't much % left if the starter should stay on the field 100% of the time But I guess that in this case 100% means "all the time, unless the dice comes up with 100 on it.." - which would rather make it 99% then, but what the &%$ do I know about maths..

Quote:
Blitzing, if you send more than one guy, just about any guy can be the second guy who blitzes.

well... one lives and learns to set % to 0 then.. although I set the value in the Def. Personnel Choices for multiple blitzers to 0 already..
So what makes me wonder about the blitzing FS is that there have been "replacements" for the WILB and SILB in the formation, who didn't blitz.. but instead the none-replacement FS makes the attempt.. if the Nickelback or the Dime Corner/Safety would have blitzed, I wouldn't find reason to wonder..
Well.. bad dice roll again, I suppose..

Quote:
Double coverage, does work the higher your Read defence is the less chance he'll put the ball into double coverage or maybe the better his judgement is. Just because the defence has a receiver double teamed doesn't mean they are doing it well!

Could it be that the Accuracy value plays a role in that too? Like a QB with high ACC sticking the ball in between the two defenders where only his WR can get it? Cause that might be an explanation.. *looks at his QBs ACC of 100*

Quote:
Originally Posted by gstelmack
On multiple blitzers, in the 3-4 the WLB is always rushing the passer. Not sure if he's counted as a blitzer or not, but I would suspect so.

As I read the description in Game (and the Help file..) the WLB always rushes the QB in the 3-4, even with blitzing set to 0
And as in the 3-4 Nickel or Dime the WLB stays on the field and isn't replaced, he should do so from those two formations also..

The maximum of blitzers seems to be 3 - SLB, WILB and SILB.
And as one can only setup blitzes by the SLB (inside and outside %), the WILB and the SILB and only those guys show up in the log as "xxx blitzes.." I've never seen the name of my WLB coming up there..
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:16 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dandelion View Post
must have been a pretty bad dice roll.. there isn't much % left if the starter should stay on the field 100% of the time But I guess that in this case 100% means "all the time, unless the dice comes up with 100 on it.." - which would rather make it 99% then, but what the &%$ do I know about maths..

My guess is that it's 100% of your endurance as a percent. So a 98 endurance set to 100% would put your guy on the field 98% of the time. Or maybe something else. Math makes my head hurt.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dandelion View Post
One look at my last playlog brought me these:
a) Pittsburgh: Pro formation with two tight ends, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
and
b) Pittsburgh: Five-Receiver Spread formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass
and
c) Pittsburgh: Strong formation with three wideouts, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.

As in a) there are 2 TE lining up at the LOS and the FL being a step behind on either the left or right side, it seems the side with the FL must be the strong side.

In b) there's no TE in the game. Or at least, there has to be none, though you can use a TE as WR5 for example.. So two WR step up to the LOS. And from the "Personnel - miscellaneous formations" screen it looks as if those two are the FL1 and SE1. So the line is evenly balanced left and right. So which side is the "strong side" here? The one with more WRs on it?

Then there is c) - two WR lining up on either side of the LOS - FL1 and SE1 - and FL2 in the slot. RB either left or right of the FB. Where's the strong side here?

Well.. if you start calling the plays yourself, you can see there's always the option to "view" a play before you call it. And the option to switch the strong side to the left or to the right. And what happens is, that the formations - at least the receiver and backs - are "mirrored".

So version a) shows up as: TE1 on the right side of the line at the LOS, TE2 on the left. FL1 on the right side, a step off the LOS. Once you switch strength to the left, both TE exchange places and the FL1 moves to the left side also. Even the RB and FB exchange places, with the FB taking up position on the strong side. So strong side: Side with TE1/FL1/FB on it.. ?

In version b) with strong left side, its SE1 on the LOS, wide outside right. And SE2 on the LOS, wide outside right. FL1 is left of the line, a step back from the LOS. Right beside him is WR5. And FL2 stands way out right from the line, a step off the LOS. Once you switch strength to the right, all FL/SE exchange places. So strong side: Side with FL1 on it.. ?

Then c) again.. with strength = left the SE1 lines up outside of the line on the LOS to the right. Way outside Left of the line on the LOS is FL2 on the LOS. And FL1 is on the left, a step off the LOS. FB also left of the QB. Change to strength right and all go ring around the rosie again.. So strong side: Side with FL/FB on it.. ?

To check if it's 100% right I'd have to look through all formations, but it seems secure to say: Strong side is the one with FL1 on it.. (except for Goalline formation, where it's the one with TE3 and the FB.. *grin*)

So, unless someone uses the formation personnel screens to move the players around, there should be the possibility to orient your defense around the FL1, who usually should be the "best WR" - at least in SG.. right?

Wait a minute... so in example 3, FL1 is in the slot...??
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:27 PM   #59
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Reposting this for any one who is interested. It's the defense I use for most of my MP leagues. Works best when paired with explosive offenses.
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:39 AM   #60
Dandelion
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Originally Posted by NiteMaestro View Post
Wait a minute... so in example 3, FL1 is in the slot...??

See pic below.. #87 = FL1

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Old 08-03-2009, 10:33 AM   #61
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My guess is that it's 100% of your endurance as a percent. So a 98 endurance set to 100% would put your guy on the field 98% of the time. Or maybe something else. Math makes my head hurt.

I believe that's pretty accurate. If your starter has 98 endurance and is set to play 100% of the time, each and every play there's a 2% chance that he'll be off the field. If he's got 60 endurance, each and every play there's a 40% chance that he'll be off the field. Remember, there used to be a bug in this calculation that you could take advantage of by putting your best RB in the #2 slot and, even with no endurance, he would get most of the plays because the algorithm only calculated the chance of the starter playing based on his endurance and playing time.

I know Jim plugged that loophole, so it _might_ be something like:

Starter: 100% * 80 endurance = 80% chance
Backup: 85 endurance = 85% chance

Then there's probably some sort of a weight to determine what percentage is applied to each player, which in the above case I would imagine that the starter's chance will get pulled down below 80%.

The flaw in logic is the assumption that the endurance is kept track of through the game where a player gets worn down, like Madden. This is NOT how it works. I'm pretty sure there's a Q&A with Jim that talks about this.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:55 PM   #62
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The flaw in logic is the assumption that the endurance is kept track of through the game where a player gets worn down, like Madden. This is NOT how it works. I'm pretty sure there's a Q&A with Jim that talks about this.

I guess You mean "The way FOF plays non-quarterbacks is to determine, internally, a percentage for player usage based on endurance and the starter playing-time settings. That's then independently applied to the depth chart on each play. This is kind of an unnatural solution, but it's fair to each team."

Makes me wonder, though, why the game - if You call plays yourself - shows players as "exhausted" in the play personnel options (... the list on the left, if one uses the "view" option for a play to see which personnel/routes it contains).

Be it as it may, if Your assumption is right, then getting the right personnel on the field would be just pure luck, right? Which would - IMHO - devalue several of the assumptions made in the first posts of the thread.
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Old 08-04-2009, 07:42 AM   #63
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Be it as it may, if Your assumption is right, then getting the right personnel on the field would be just pure luck, right? Which would - IMHO - devalue several of the assumptions made in the first posts of the thread.

The key here is that the game is stats driven, which means the box score will look great, but going through the game log you start to see some of the flaws of the game engine. If you plan your game with that in mind you will do better than micro-analyzing each play and trying to figure out why your team did what it did. So it doesn't invalidate the above strategies, it just means that you need larger sample sizes to make everything play out ok. I've said this before and I'm pretty sure I'm correct in my assumption that who you have on the field for each given play isn't as important as it would be if the game was simmed at the 2-d level, as not every player appears to have an effect on the outcome of each play. Look at the stats on a macro level and you'll appreciate it better, looking at it on the micro level (and thinking you can have a greater effect at that level) can lead to frustration.
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:26 AM   #64
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In nickle and dime defenses 99.99% of the time there are no substitutions.

I have never seen a sub done (but that doesn't mean it can't happen). But I did a test a while ago in which I set the defense to 100% nickle and the only plays where someone not on the depth chart played was when the game forced the defense into Dime coverage.

So, if you have crap for back ups and absolutely need your base defense on the field 100% of the time, run all nickle/dime.
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:14 PM   #65
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The key here is that the game is stats driven, which means the box score will look great, but going through the game log you start to see some of the flaws of the game engine.

And with that You mean that regardless of what I would call in the games' "Play Simulation" part - You know the one in SP mode, where one decides NOT to let the coach call the plays , the one nearly nobody ever uses as it seems.. -well that regardless of what kind of calls I make there, the game has been decided ahead by.. statistics?
If so, why's that part in the game? Should have taken some time to build it in, I guess..

Or did You mean with "stats driven" that the players stats - skills, ablilities, whatever to call them.. - are put up against each other and then the decision is made with a - more or less lucky - roll of the dice? If so, then it doesn't matter, if FOF is a 0d or 3d Sim - even Madden10 is decided by those player stats (not the player on the Joystick.. at least not for 100%..) and some dice rolls..

The problem would rather be, how deep does the simulation part go. Is it a pure "10% that WR1 Rating 70 is targetted. If so: 10% that LCB1 Rating 67 covers him. If so: x% for deflect/Int/catch. Roll dice. Find result in table $1. Next."

Or does the simulation go deeper, using certains skills of the players? Like the PRT/PRS Skill of the DE being used not only to see IF he pressures the QB, but to which extend. And then modifying the QBs Long Passing Skill to see if the WR gets a chance to use his Adjust to catch the ball etc.. etc.. etc..
Of course it's only dice rolls in the end.. but is it a "Pittsburgh plays Cleveland. 50% Cleveland wins - due to addup of player ratings or whatever - *Sound of dice rolling*.. 34.. Cleveland wins by result in table $1 under 34%... with log files made up to fit the dice roll?
Or does what the gamers - we - do to raise the chances of our teams, up to trying to find the right man on the right spot for the right play have any influence?

Quote:
If you plan your game with that in mind you will do better than micro-analyzing each play and trying to figure out why your team did what it did. So it doesn't invalidate the above strategies, it just means that you need larger sample sizes to make everything play out ok.

The thing that buggers me about the FS blitzing without being told so and the Backup being on the field without being ordered so is more that those tidbitts seem to me as something that takes control away from me. Different gamers have different styles of play. I would never let Rex put up my Off/Def Gameplans or setup my players unless I'm sure he would do it exactly as I want him to do it. As his plans don't use my personnel as it needs to be used (.. or as I don't have the fitting personnel for Rex's plans..) I have to set up the Gameplans myself. And therefore I try to find out what happens when...
As I'm not a numbercruncher, I don't run 1,000 test games in a sterile surrounding, to get to my results. I've done 13 seasons now, easiest financial mode, started with the Steelers of 2008 and got Big Ben four rings in the first eight years.. then several players retired and now I'm in the process of building up a new team, fitting to my "hit them hard and run them down, then pick their long passes.." style of play. Had three bad years, then made it into Div Final and - tadaa - to another ring in the last season.
And all the time I'm modifying bits of my gameplans or settings.. Not in Macro level mode - but by what you could call Micro management.

Quote:
I've said this before and I'm pretty sure I'm correct in my assumption that who you have on the field for each given play isn't as important as it would be if the game was simmed at the 2-d level, as not every player appears to have an effect on the outcome of each play. Look at the stats on a macro level and you'll appreciate it better, looking at it on the micro level (and thinking you can have a greater effect at that level) can lead to frustration.

I guess you're right about the ".. not every player.." part. Although from my experience it makes a difference if I set up my 100% of the time blitzing SLB to bugger the lousy rated LT/RTs on the opponents o-line.. even though he doesn't make the sack, the DEs or the WLB will make use of his pressure. And - from what I make of the stats my 13 seasons brought me - it does indeed raise the sack rating of the players around my SLB if he's good in PRT/PRS and set to blitz..
So.. adjusting the blitz directions for him - inside or outside - is what.. micro or macro?

And on the 100% playing time thingy.. I ran a meager four test games - two with 100%, two with 50% playing time for the starter - and came up with what I think of as an interesting result..
Under the 100% setup my O-line starters showed a 0 to 15.67% deviation to the 100%.
My starting LG (End 78, rated 70) was on the field 100% of all plays. His backup is a End 35, rating 44 LG.
On the other end of the line is my starting C (End 37, rating 62) who was on the field only on 84.3% of the plays - without getting hurt or suchlike - and was replaced by the End 18 rating 42 Backup C.
Starting LT (End 91, rating 64) was on the field 98.05% (Backup: End 34, rating 52)
From the other deviations, which stand around 2 to 5 % it seems, that neither Endurance nor Rating have a linear influence on the playing time settings.

With a 50% playing time setting for the starters, the deviations stand more equally at about 5%. The above mentioned starting LG was on the field 55.7% of the time, the C 53.57% and the LT made it for also 55.7% of the plays..

So, as each player has less time on the field with the 50% ratings, it seems that endurance does have an influence at playing time (-> higher deviations with 100%, lower with 50%). Though it seems as Endurance isn't the only aspect that has (-> End 91 spent less time on the field than End 78 in 100% mode)..
I would need an html parser to get more data to even have a small chance to find out what aspect that could be.. so up to now it's "Lucky Dice rolls.." all over for me
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Dandelion View Post
Or did You mean with "stats driven" that the players stats - skills, ablilities, whatever to call them.. - are put up against each other and then the decision is made with a - more or less lucky - roll of the dice? If so, then it doesn't matter, if FOF is a 0d or 3d Sim - even Madden10 is decided by those player stats (not the player on the Joystick.. at least not for 100%..) and some dice rolls..

That's more or less what I mean, the game appears to be designed with the end result of accurate stats being the primary goal rather than simulating what happens on each play. So, you're more or less correct in that it combines all the skills of various key players and comes up with a dice roll result. It differs from madden because madden takes into account the position on the field of the player where FOF doesn't. How far a player runs after making a catch, for example, is a factor of his big play receiving and probably the speed of the covering CB and S, but not where they might have been as the play unfolds. It yields fairly good results, but if you think about how the simulation is actually run it may sway some of the details of how you play it.

And no, I've never done the SP where you call the plays
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Old 08-05-2009, 06:12 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by jdavidbakr View Post
That's more or less what I mean, the game appears to be designed with the end result of accurate stats being the primary goal rather than simulating what happens on each play. So, you're more or less correct in that it combines all the skills of various key players and comes up with a dice roll result. It differs from madden because madden takes into account the position on the field of the player where FOF doesn't. How far a player runs after making a catch, for example, is a factor of his big play receiving and probably the speed of the covering CB and S, but not where they might have been as the play unfolds.

Easy to test, I guess.. go to SP-DIY mode (Singleplayer, do it yourself.. the playcalling, that is..) and send Your FL1 on lots of short cross routes, then see how often he gets a long yardage catch, who makes the tackle, etc. etc.
The difference between Madden and FOF is - imho - not position of players on the field. It's just that in Madden the player with the joystick is some random factor in the game, which is simulated in FOF by a dice roll
In Madden you see some pixels running across the field, catching some pixels thrown at them.. in FOF you have a "FL1 runs route $1, goes into Zone$12 triggering ZoneDefSkill of FS1 - compare Skills, get result. If result is positive Yardage is xx yard gain"
Of course that looks different on the first glance. But depending on how deep that comparisions are made, there is no need for pixels on a field to get a simulation that is even closer to reality than Madden (I stopped playing Madden with 2005 or so, as it only yielded absolutely unrealistic results from the statistic view.. too many highscoring 300+ yard passing games for my taste..)

Quote:
It yields fairly good results, but if you think about how the simulation is actually run it may sway some of the details of how you play it.

That's the thing.. DO we KNOW how the simulation in FOF is run? I mean, do we know how deep the simulation is? There's a lot that can be put into such a simulation.. a lot of modifiers, triggered by different things.. Looks to me like You see it as a lot more shallow than I do

Could be that I'm totally wrong, but after 13 seasons with 20-23 games each - preseason, playoffs and bowl included sometimes - I tend to see a "flow" in the messages given for each play. Sometimes a computer controlled team gets hammered all game long, just to get one good drive going in the middle.. all the time before and after they go 3 and out, but that one drive goes over the field with five good plays in a row.. or if there's an interception or fumble in the game.. more than once - a lot more than once.. - there's an interception or fumble shortly after for the other side, giving the ball back into the hands of the previous possessor.. as if the players had been fired up to get the ball back for their side.. could easily be done by some modyfiers in the code of FOF..
So the thing seems to be, that I see more detail in the game than You do.. and I play the game according to my view and of course look for answers according to my view
The numbercrunchers out there could do a lot to prove who of us is more right than the other..

Quote:
And no, I've never done the SP where you call the plays

hmmm.. maybe You should give it a try..

Last edited by Dandelion : 08-05-2009 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 08-05-2009, 06:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dandelion View Post
Of course that looks different on the first glance. But depending on how deep that comparisions are made, there is no need for pixels on a field to get a simulation that is even closer to reality than Madden (I stopped playing Madden with 2005 or so, as it only yielded absolutely unrealistic results from the statistic view.. too many highscoring 300+ yard passing games for my taste..)

First off, let me be clear - I do really like FOF, I switched from Madden though not because of the game play but because of the long-term sustainability of the franchise building aspect. I feel like the game engine works very well, but you can't watch your OG on every play to evaluate how well he's doing because you don't really have any information about what he's doing. I don't doubt that he's being evaluated and having some measure of effect on the end result, and I don't disagree with you that it probably goes very deep with the calculations. This whole discussion started with the question of having your starters get subbed out in an unrealistic manner, which doesn't happen in Madden, and in my opinion sort of breaks the illusion when you start micro analyzing the game logs in FOF.
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:19 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by jdavidbakr View Post
First off, let me be clear - I do really like FOF...


I'd never have dared to think anything else.. You've been playing FOF a lot longer than me..

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I switched from Madden though not because of the game play but because of the long-term sustainability of the franchise building aspect.


Understandible.. Madden is a mediocre game with a whole lot of 3-d gimmicks and a big purse for advertisement.. I loved Sierra's Front Page Sports Football.. too bad they tried to imitate EA Madden too much.. and too bad it was published by Sierra, home of the bugs

Quote:
This whole discussion started with the question of having your starters get subbed out in an unrealistic manner, which doesn't happen in Madden, and in my opinion sort of breaks the illusion when you start micro analyzing the game logs in FOF.

I see it from two different points of view.. the first is immersion.. if my backup gets on the field on a play where he shouldn't be in, something must have happened.. maybe the starter mislaid his helmet - that even happens to star quality players in the NFL

The second point of view is the game code POV.. Was it just a glitch? A bug in programming? Was it - from the programmer's POV supposed to happen? If not, how can one make sure it doesn't happen again?
I'm still quite new to FOF, so I'm still trying to find out what happens if I change different things - and things like that unexpected backup on the field or the SS blitzing when his blitz rate is set to 0% make me ask for the "why" behind it. Glitch? Bug? Bad Dice Roll? Or done as expected by the programmer?
Might be, that playing WOW for quite a while got me to think there's a whole lot of people around even here, who love to analyse a game - numbercrunchers - as there seem to be millions of them in WOW. As it seems, I've been wrong.. so I'll continue my "live and learn" strategy to find out what happens when I change some detail in the FOF setups
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:44 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by jdavidbakr View Post
That's more or less what I mean, the game appears to be designed with the end result of accurate stats being the primary goal rather than simulating what happens on each play.
And no, I've never done the SP where you call the plays

Are you saying the game is decided first and then the plays /stats added around it?
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:39 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by sidthelid View Post
Are you saying the game is decided first and then the plays /stats added around it?

I think he means the game is designed to have each gameday end with realistic results - from a statistic point of view.. No horrendous amount of 63:56 wins.. and not too many 0:3 either.

So even with 53 players with 100/100 stats you won't win all games without giving up some TDs.. and even with a team full of 1/1 players sometimes you will score one.. as in real life.. just take a look at the Detroit Lions in the real NFL

the game is coded to get realistic results - and of course it will "cheat" a bit to get to them. If in a match one team is way too strong, take a look at penalties... maybe even injuries... or that "lucky streak" the losing team has for one drive.. all those things could be coded into the game to the effect of achieving realistic statistics.
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Old 08-05-2009, 04:46 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by sidthelid View Post
Are you saying the game is decided first and then the plays /stats added around it?

I really think what he's saying is (once again) getting back to the idea of starters getting subbed out as the immediate example.

In real football, we understand how this tend to work. The starting RB gets the first couple of series, gets spelled in certain situations, but basically takes all the snaps. Then after a while, he might get a breather for a series, or for a few plays, as the other RB comes in. That is more likely to happen in the middle or later parts of the game. But when you look at the end of the game, you'd see that RB1 got maybe 45 snaps, and RB2 got 15.

In FOF, the end distribution might be the same, but the way the game works you'd see those 15 snaps for RB2 coming basically randomly interspersed throughout the game. He might ne in there for the second play of the game, which seems kinda silly if you look at the game that closely. But in the end, the playing time works out the same way. Pretty much what jdb has been saying here a few times over.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dandelion View Post
I guess You mean "The way FOF plays non-quarterbacks is to determine, internally, a percentage for player usage based on endurance and the starter playing-time settings. That's then independently applied to the depth chart on each play. This is kind of an unnatural solution, but it's fair to each team."

Makes me wonder, though, why the game - if You call plays yourself - shows players as "exhausted" in the play personnel options (... the list on the left, if one uses the "view" option for a play to see which personnel/routes it contains).

Be it as it may, if Your assumption is right, then getting the right personnel on the field would be just pure luck, right? Which would - IMHO - devalue several of the assumptions made in the first posts of the thread.



How do you get to that play viewing screen?
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Old 08-05-2009, 07:44 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
How do you get to that play viewing screen?

When You simulate a Gameday use the "Show games on Scoreboard - Only Your Team" option.
The scoreboard should pop up with the option to call your own plays - that little hook beside the "call play" button.
If You use the Call Play button on anything but a Kickoff/return, You'll get to the "select offense" (.. or ".. defense") screen.
On the right side all available plays for the chosen formation are listed. And a bit left of the "call" button, with which You call a play, there's the "view" button, which shows You the diagram for the play with the route(s) for the receiver(s) or the slot the RB/FB is going to run through.
Included are the optional players at the skill positions in a drop down menu on the left with remarks about injuries or stamina.

I know of no other way to access these screens.. though they would be quite helpfull for gameplan making IMHO
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:59 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Dandelion View Post
When You simulate a Gameday use the "Show games on Scoreboard - Only Your Team" option.
The scoreboard should pop up with the option to call your own plays - that little hook beside the "call play" button.
If You use the Call Play button on anything but a Kickoff/return, You'll get to the "select offense" (.. or ".. defense") screen.
On the right side all available plays for the chosen formation are listed. And a bit left of the "call" button, with which You call a play, there's the "view" button, which shows You the diagram for the play with the route(s) for the receiver(s) or the slot the RB/FB is going to run through.
Included are the optional players at the skill positions in a drop down menu on the left with remarks about injuries or stamina.

I know of no other way to access these screens.. though they would be quite helpfull for gameplan making IMHO

Ah ok, I thought they looked dimly familiar, its been a while since I've played single player. (and even longer since I've called my own plays in single player)
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:26 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Thanks, Yoda. That makes more sense to me, but alas, it clearly unravels your theory about how to use man-only and zone-only corners in a split coverage scheme.
I don't think this is too hard to solve, actually.

1) Orient your corners by WR covered.
2) The WR that is the "top" WR is the one with the best RR skills.
3) Determine whether that WR is the SE or the FL
4) There are 4 possibilities, either the SE or the FL are the top guy; and you want to put your stud on the SE or the FL.
a) If the SE is the top RR guy and that's the guy you want to shut down, you want to play Weak Man/Strong Zone, and put your stud at LCB/Top CB. Orient him by WR covered locks him onto the SE, who is on the weak side in most formations (exception being in "slot" formations.)
b) If the FL is the top RR guy and that's your target, put your stud at LCB/Top CB and play Strong Man/Weak Zone. He should lock on to the FL who is on the strong side in most formations.
c) If the SE is the top RR guy and you're targeting the FL, put your stud at RCB/2nd CB, and play Strong Man/Weak Zone. As the "#2" CB he should lock on to the Flanker as the WR with the #2 RR, and the strong side is where the Flanker hangs out.
d) FL top/SE target: Stud @ RCB/2nd CB and play Weak Man/Strong Zone. Should lock you onto the SE, and man him up on the weak side where he plays.

Unless I'm missing something, that should cover you most of the time.

Untested, caveat emptor, YMMV, etc., etc.

Last edited by Wanderer : 02-04-2011 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:22 PM   #77
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I think you're right (an odd bump of a 21 month old post, but I'm game) that this works if:

(1) you are gameplanning one game at a time;

(2) you are correct about the FL/SE being identified as the upcoming opponent's "top" receiver (determined in-game) and the opponent does not make a switch in their roles; and

(3) your assumption that FL=Strong is correct in at least an overwhelming share of situations (reasonable, but not ironclad).


I confess that I'm lost at item #1 above. I have long since lost the patience required to do any gameplanning game by game in any setting, even for title games in MP leagues.

So, what I really wanted way back (at least one or two patches ago, by the way) when we were having this conversation was some way to create a defense that more or less automatically placed my CB1 man specialist on the man-coverage side, and my CB2 zone specialist on the zone-coverage side in a split man/zone formation. And it still appears that there's no real way to do that.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:48 PM   #78
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I think you're right (an odd bump of a 21 month old post, but I'm game)
Sorry, I found it on a search for defensive gameplanning tips and answered before I looked.

Quote:
that this works if:

(1) you are gameplanning one game at a time;
Yeah, only if you're gameplanning one game at a time, but it's maybe 10 mouseclicks to make the adjustment.
Quote:
(2) you are correct about the FL/SE being identified as the upcoming opponent's "top" receiver (determined in-game) and the opponent does not make a switch in their roles; and
I thought the first part was confirmed from SSoftware, no? That the route running measure was the determining factor? As to the 2nd part, that's true I guess. That sort of gamesmanship could happen.
Quote:
(3) your assumption that FL=Strong is correct in at least an overwhelming share of situations (reasonable, but not ironclad).
This is pretty close to ironclad, actually, and you can see it from the playcalling screens in SP when you shift the strengths from right to left in the various formations. No matter what formation you choose, if you "view" a play and look, your FL1 is always on the side designated as strong. This is true even in balanced sets. In a Single back 4WR, there is no strong side, but FOF actually defines the strong side by where the FL1 goes.


Quote:
I confess that I'm lost at item #1 above. I have long since lost the patience required to do any gameplanning game by game in any setting, even for title games in MP leagues.

So, what I really wanted way back (at least one or two patches ago, by the way) when we were having this conversation was some way to create a defense that more or less automatically placed my CB1 man specialist on the man-coverage side, and my CB2 zone specialist on the zone-coverage side in a split man/zone formation. And it still appears that there's no real way to do that.
I'm afraid that to be able to put an opponent's top WR on Revis Island, it will take somewhere between 0 and 12 mouseclicks before a game where it might be important to you. But if your opponent flips his SE and FL out of nowhere, then yes, it would be undone.

Just thought I'd contribute to give a 90% solution to a problem that looked like it was left unresolved.
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:10 AM   #79
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Great read.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:42 PM   #80
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Thanks, I am planning on updating this soon. I have been getting good information from another owner that I have been asking for.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:08 PM   #81
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Thanks, I am planning on updating this soon. I have been getting good information from another owner that I have been asking for.

Still planning on updating this? Is there another thread I missed?
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:20 PM   #82
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Yes, I am still planning on updating this. I've just gotten busy... my wife is going to Origins and will be gone for a week.... I'll try to find time then.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:50 PM   #83
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That was 8 months ago. LOL
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:15 PM   #84
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Yeah, I need to work on this.... *sigh*
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:28 PM   #85
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Please!!!! Because I royally SUCK on both offense and defense and need all the help I can get! Yes, I have studied the threads here but have yet to master this like most here seem to have. I inheretid a suck ass team in a quality league and have found it almost impossible to improve it much when my budget sucks and the only FA's I attracted are everyone elses rejects.

So come on, do this for us losers!
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:50 PM   #86
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Hi everyone, I bought the game 2 days ago and I'm not sure I completely understand defense play calling. Let me ask a few noob question, if someone took the time to answer them (ok, some of them), I would be grateful. I'm from Europe so please forgive me for any possible language mistakes.

1) How are blitzers determined? (LB, CB, S?)

2) Why is a 1-deep, loose man defense "very vulnerable to any kind of passing attack, particulary to short passes" when a 2-deep, loose man is not? I guess the only difference is one safety not positioning in deep zone which in fact should make it more effective against short passes, not weaker.

3) What is exactly a loose man defense? BnR is slightly better against short passes but what is the advantage of loose man? Run defense? Should I ever call loose man if my LBs and secondary are more effective playing BnR?

4) How to play zone defense? Both loose man and BnR are man-to-man systems with only the safeties playing zone. Strong/weak side man cover feature a CB and 1/2 linebackers playing zone. But in the standard formations, LBs never defend zones?

5) Does that also mean that zone defense skill for LB is mostly irrelevant? And, since they are not usually lined up against wide receivers, they don't bump into them too often. Safeties never do. So how important BnR defense is to them?

6) One last questions. Does it make sense to call a run/pass oriented play and focus on the other option? Like, lining up a nickel/dime formation and expecting run? I guess WRs would be covered by the extra CBs while the LBs and safeties defend against running plays.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #87
garion333
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Welcome, aadam. A number of your questions can, in part, be answered by looking over the Player Guide: http://www.solecismic.com/support/FO...layerGuide.pdf

Pages 65-68 covers defensive stuff.

Last edited by garion333 : 02-20-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:17 PM   #88
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Yeah, I need to work on this.... *sigh*

Two years after Yoda still looking some time to write it!!
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Old 03-14-2014, 02:37 AM   #89
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Fantastic

I was about to give up on the game due to frustration but your thread has made me give it another go.

SUPERB stuff Yoda many thanks.
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:50 PM   #90
Andreh
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Read this thread many times trying to figure out how to improve my Minnesota MP defense. It lacks on LB quality but it has a good DL and decent backs. More than often the defense do good on 1st and second downs, but on 3rd and medium or long it gives huge yardage, with dime , prevent, 3 deep, 4deep, aggressive or not pass coverage

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrsam View Post
Tennessee: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 4-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-9-KCY46 (3Q: 13:08) Scottie Moss pass completed to WR Oliver Dawson for 46 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Dawson gained 35 yards after the catch. The quarterback threw into double coverage. Tennessee 20, Kansas City 7
.

Thats from SP, but it happens the same on MP. I had a similar play after a screen pass. How come with 4 deep guys a screen pass can get more than 40 yards!

Any time I face a 3rd and long at Solevision after 2 great def plays I know that if I dont get a penalty I will allow 20+ yards on the air. Any tips?
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Old 03-14-2014, 05:33 PM   #91
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Read this thread many times trying to figure out how to improve my Minnesota MP defense. It lacks on LB quality but it has a good DL and decent backs. More than often the defense do good on 1st and second downs, but on 3rd and medium or long it gives huge yardage, with dime , prevent, 3 deep, 4deep, aggressive or not pass coverage



Thats from SP, but it happens the same on MP. I had a similar play after a screen pass. How come with 4 deep guys a screen pass can get more than 40 yards!

Any time I face a 3rd and long at Solevision after 2 great def plays I know that if I dont get a penalty I will allow 20+ yards on the air. Any tips?

4 Deep is poor against short throws which is what they're hitting you with. Unless you're in 20 yd+ territory don't run 4 deep, run 3 deep on passing downs. And don't be afraid to still go with M2M and BnR depending on the skill of your CBs.
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