It's the 2011 NBA playoffs! Mavs Win!

[stevew]

Predictions? If Bynum is out, I doubt we see a Threepeat.

[SackAttack]

Just a bone bruise for Bynum, evidently.

I don't know if I'd tip the Lakers to threepeat, but I do think that if Chicago ain't the East representative, the winner probably comes out of the West, barring an upset in the West playoffs.

I like any of the top four West seeds against Miami/Boston/Orlando.

[RainMaker]

I'll be at the Bulls game Saturday. Can't wait. Hopefully Thibs doesn't kill the starters tonight.

[Noop]

Shouldn't you change it to 2010-2011 NBA PLAYOFFS Thread? I was looking for one and missed this one a few times.

[Noop]

I got Oklahoma City vs. Chicago in the finals.

I like Oklahoma City to win in 6.

However I would not be mad if my beloved Miami Heat won the whole thing.

[Neon_Chaos]

I cannot envision any team beating the Lakers in a 7 game series.

[panerd]

I think Miami to win 70+ games was totally overblown and ended up making them look like a team in disarray. But how quickly people forget that Wade has a title and Lebron made the finals with basically the same team that couldn't win 20 games this year. I think the Heat will win it all.

[Noop]

I cannot envision any team beating the Lakers in a 7 game series.

They suffer from the same problem as Boston they are old.

[Neon_Chaos]

They suffer from the same problem as Boston they are old.

Riiiiiight.

[Noop]

Riiiiiight.

I know man. I know. If the LA can make it to the finals I would shocked and impressed. LA has to beat Dallas/Portland then beat San Antonio/OKC/Denver can it be done? Yeah but I doubt it.

[heybrad]

History is against the Lakers making it to the finals for a 4th straight year, but I really believe if Bynum can stay healthy (and that's a big if) I think they are going to take it.

[JediKooter]

Go Clippers!!!! Oh wait, this is the playoffs thread, never mind...

[heybrad]

I do have one prediction that I'm guaranteeing. No matter who wins the title or makes the finals, someone will be in here shouting 'CONSPIRACY!'.

[Noop]

I do have one prediction that I'm guaranteeing. No matter who wins the title or makes the finals, someone will be in here shouting 'CONSPIRACY!'.

PING! TroyF

:D

[Cuckoo]

Very excited for another postseason here in Oklahoma City. I was able to go last year, and the atmosphere was absolutely incredible. But I missed out on tickets this morning, and it looks like I'll have to pay considerably more than face if I want to go.

It should be a great series with Denver. All the days off at the beginning will give the Nuggets a chance to get healthy, and though the Thunder won 3 of 4, including 2 this past week, the games were competitive. Plus, a Denver player and Karl both basically said that OKC was cocky and needed to get taken down. Game on! :)

[TroyF]

PING! TroyF

:D

Yeah?

I actually didn't say a hell of a lot last year. I have no doubt Stern and his cronies will decide a few games in this years playoffs. They always do. Go ahead and rewind the tape of the Sacremento/Lakers game 6 and let me know if that didn't essentially give the Lakers a championship. Everyone who has a pulse knows it did.

We'll see how they do this year. My guess is they'll be as horrific as usual.

[MikeVic]

Also the Heat title in the Mavs series.

[StLee]

I expect my Hornets to be swept in four games. Then, I'll just check out the final scores the rest of the way to see who pulled it out.

[bronconick]

Also the Heat title in the Mavs series.

Interfering with Wade's invisible force field *is* a foul, no matter what you say.

[Groundhog]

I think there's a lot of interesting matchups this year. Parity in the league is pretty good as far as the top 16 (or maybe top 13-14 at least) go. I certainly didn't envision the Bulls at #1 seed but they are a real fun team to watch and I think it's either them or Miami that come out the East. In the West I have absolutely no idea. I guess I'll go with the Lakers, although I wouldn't be shocked if it was one of 4 other teams.

[Noop]

Yeah?

I actually didn't say a hell of a lot last year. I have no doubt Stern and his cronies will decide a few games in this years playoffs. They always do. Go ahead and rewind the tape of the Sacremento/Lakers game 6 and let me know if that didn't essentially give the Lakers a championship. Everyone who has a pulse knows it did.

We'll see how they do this year. My guess is they'll be as horrific as usual.

Twas a joke TroyF.

[Suicane75]

Beating the Heat would bring me equal joy as actually winning a championship. So go 76ers.

[Noop]

Beating the Heat would bring me equal joy as actually winning a championship. So go 76ers.

Beating your meat will as well.

[Groundhog]

I hear that. My Cavs may be in the lottery, but at least I get to root for whoever plays the Heat!

[stevew]

I sure hope that Joel Anthony doesn't fuck LeBron's mom in the middle of a playoff series.

[Suicane75]

Beating your meat will as well.

:mad: :rant:

[jbergey22]

If the conspiracy theory really exists I would assume that we dont see the Heat win it this year. Since so many want to see them fail it would make much sense from a directors POV to have them instantly ruin the hopes of so many.

Heat vs Lakers would be the best possible outcome for Stern's National Entertainment Association.

Stay tuned!

[whomario]

as far as injuries go, Manu Ginobili is listed as "doubtful" for the first game with a sprained ellbow.

I´m going to rout for whoever comes out of the OKC/DEN series, a bit for the Mavs as well due to Dirk.

I think that both the OKC/DEN and the DAL/POR series will go to 6 or 7 games and be close throughout, the Grizzlies might steal a game and might have a shot if Ginobili´s injury turns out to be lingering.

In the east i don´t really have any team that interests me all that much to be honest. The Knicks/Celtics series could be entertaining and the Hawks/Magic one could be close despite the Hawks recent struggles (but not very watchable i´d wager) since the Hawks match up very well and Collins is in Dwight´s head for some reason. But even that is a long shot.
And rooting for the Hawks would be kind of wrong with the way they played for large portions of the season...

[RainMaker]

I got OKC a couple months ago at 15 to 1 to win the West so I'm rooting for them. I do like Denver a lot though. Memphis is a really scary team guys, I would not sell them short.

[Thomkal]

Let's go Pacers! (okay win at least one game please?)

[Chief Rum]

Go Clippers!!!! Oh wait, this is the playoffs thread, never mind...

Suck it, Jedi! 2012's right around the corner! (Assuming they actually play the season...)

:D

[JediKooter]

Suck it, Jedi! 2012's right around the corner! (Assuming they actually play the season...)

:D

Haha! I'm actually a Clippers fan myself. However, knowing the Clippers luck, they will be in first place in December 2012 and the Mayans end up being correct about that calendar of theirs.

[Chief Rum]

Haha! I'm actually a Clippers fan myself. However, knowing the Clippers luck, they will be in first place in December 2012 and the Mayans end up being correct about that calendar of theirs.

Really, if that were to happen, do you think it's coincidence? Obviously, such an unexpected circumstance as the Clippers being in first in any given December could only be tied into cosmic events that bring the universe to an end as we know it.

Somehow, I am guessing DTS will find a way to survive past the apocalypse, of course.

[JediKooter]

Really, if that were to happen, do you think it's coincidence? Obviously, such an unexpected circumstance as the Clippers being in first in any given December could only be tied into cosmic events that bring the universe to an end as we know it.

Somehow, I am guessing DTS will find a way to survive past the apocalypse, of course.

Pretty much. It would probably take something on that scale for that to happen. Everything would have to align up, the stars, the planets, dogs and cats living together in harmony. But, yes somehow, some way, he would find a way to survive past it all and that would only give his ego a bigger boost.

[MrBug708]

Three former UCLA PG's are starting on teams in the NBA and we can't recruit a PG to save our life :(

[Chief Rum]

Three former UCLA PG's are starting on teams in the NBA and we can't recruit a PG to save our life :(

And that doesn't even count Farmar playing a key role with the Nets.

I don't think adding Larry Drew Jr. is helping us in the 2012 recruiting battles for a PG.

[Big Fo]

Since Orlando doesn't seem likely to make it past the second round, anyone but the Celtics, Lakers, or Heat please. Thunder - Bulls in the Finals would be cool.

[Radii]

anyone but the Celtics, Lakers, or Heat please. Thunder - Bulls in the Finals would be cool.


Sounds perfect. I'm rooting for Denver b/c of the UNC PGs but I'm one of probably very many w/ the same general rooting interests.

[stevew]

The Bulls look like a pile of shit today.

[stevew]

Can't shut down Hansborough? Just fucking karate chop elbow him in the side of the head.

[TroyF]

most of the time I think bashing announcers gets a little over the top. But the announcer who has spent the last ten minutes yapping about how the "unintentional" elbow shouldn't have been called needs to just call it a day.

An elbow is an elbow you idiot.

I don't think it was intentional, but that doesn't matter. "I went for the ball but accidentally slapped him in the head" doesn't work either.

Hansbrough hit a ton of shots in that third quarter. Bulls look like crap, but I don't think Tyler is coming back and Rose might get to the line 15 times in the final quarter with Joey and Violet out there.

[stevew]

Oh yeah, I fully expect Joey to crown Rose. I think 15 free throws is a perfect over/under for Rose. I bet Granger doesn't shoot 4.

[stevew]

Man, someone needs to elbow chop Tyler Hansbrough before it gets too late.

[stevew]

Unreal

[Radii]

HANSBROUGH! really! hahaha. I'm a bigger fan of Lawson and Felton but so happy to see him play well.

[TroyF]

I have to say that the refs have done a damned good job this game. Considering the crew, I'm kind of stunned at that.

At the end of the day, the Pacers have flat out outplayed the Bulls. The right team is going to win this game.

Indians coach is going to make some major coin off of this game. His team was well coached and they flat out outplayed the Bulls.

On the other side, it's one game. This may be the best thing that could have happened to the Bulls when it is all said and done.

[MikeVic]

Baaaaad boozer foul what the hell!

[kingfc22]

At the end of the day, the Pacers have flat out outplayed the Bulls. The right team is going to win this game.


Don't speak too soon. There's a reason why one team is the #1 seed and the other isn't.

[TroyF]

Should have stated the game wasn't over. That was really, really a poor couple of possessions by Indiana there.

[stevew]

Watch out NBA, if you get within Derrick Rose's imaginary force field, you'll get hit with a foul.

[TroyF]

Really, really impressive four minute stretch there by the Bulls.

[MikeVic]

I think the fouls on rose have pretty much been legit.

[TroyF]

I think the fouls on rose have pretty much been legit.

I think so too.

[stevew]

Really, really impressive four minute stretch there by the Bulls.

yeah, indy...wtf. Get a rebound douches.

[MikeVic]

Nice by Noah.

[stevew]

Funny how the Heat resorted to a white-out to Camouflage the amount of empty seats. I guess the Heat fans can't be bothered to arrive within the first quarter?

[Neuqua]

Watch out NBA, if you get within Derrick Rose's imaginary force field, you'll get hit with a foul.

Not sure what game you were watching.

[MikeVic]

Lol fans are chanting MVP for lebron and for wade.

[jbergey22]

Watch out NBA, if you get within Derrick Rose's imaginary force field, you'll get hit with a foul.

He's got reputation now so it makes it even more impossible to guard him. He is so good at getting into the lane and drawing contact he could probably get to the line whenever he wanted.

Might as well get used to him being in that Kobe, Lebron, DWade class now where anything questionable will send him to the line.

The difference is Rose doesnt complain or bitch all the time so the refs enjoy treating him like a star. He only had 2 technical fouls this year.

[MrBug708]

Enjoy it while it lasts

[Young Drachma]

Man, there are quite a few empty seats there in Miami.

[SirFozzie]

The good news for Orlando: Dwight Howard has 31 points at halftime.

The bad news: They're still losing by 7.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Atlanta won a playoff game? Maybe those 2012 predictions are closer to being right than I thought.

[stevew]

He's got reputation now so it makes it even more impossible to guard him. He is so good at getting into the lane and drawing contact he could probably get to the line whenever he wanted.

Might as well get used to him being in that Kobe, Lebron, DWade class now where anything questionable will send him to the line.

The difference is Rose doesnt complain or bitch all the time so the refs enjoy treating him like a star. He only had 2 technical fouls this year.

How about the Heat shooting 24 more free throws than the Sixers yesterday. Basically impossible to win a game with that kind of differential.

For the record, I'm not saying that free throws should be equal, but that seems to be an extreme difference.

[MikeVic]

How about the Heat shooting 24 more free throws than the Sixers yesterday. Basically impossible to win a game with that kind of differential.

For the record, I'm not saying that free throws should be equal, but that seems to be an extreme difference.

Bill Simmons has a nice couple of tweets about this. Based on FGA inside of 10 feet and offensive rebounding, it makes sense for the Bulls difference but not the Heat. For the Knicks/Celts, the Knicks should have more FTA.

[whomario]

When Hansbrough had that steal and dunk i thought there was absolutely no way they could loose that game, great job by Chicago coming back from that.

Mavs had some FT-luck yesterday, although fact is that Nowitzki just couldn´t be guarded without fouling that 4th quarter and it´s not like it´s unusual that he can flip that switch and get his defenders to panic and revert to defending with their arms rather than their feet.

Also, Kidd propably will go 2-12 the next 2 combined from deep, so someone else better get sth going.

[MrBug708]

Pau Gasol - 0-12 in Memphis postseason history
Marc Gasol - 1-0 in Memphis postseason history

Not a bad trade :)

[whomario]

Shane effing Battier with the biggest shot of the game and then following it with a big time rebound.

[Warhammer]

Heckuva a last few minutes in that game. Looked like the Griz were going to run away at the end, the Spurs took the lead, then Memphis goes on a 7-0 run to close the game.

[stevew]

Congrats to memphis.

[StLee]

Boy, was I wrong about the Hornets. But I'll take it! :)

[Logan]

Nice job refs.

[TroyF]

Nice job refs.


If the refs hadn't been working their asses off to keep OKC in the game, the Nuggets would be up by 15 or more now. They dominated every facet of the game. Nuggets called for 10 fouls and OKC has 13 FTA.

OKC called for 1 foul and the Nuggets have 1 FTA (and that was off an illegal defense)

OKC will get their feet and they will make this a game. I'll be interested to see how many calls the Nuggets get when OKC makes their charge. Thus far, it's been comical.

[Neon_Chaos]

How about Ray Allen?

[TroyF]

the refs even up the FT tally and Denver can't hit one. they lose this game, they have nobody but themselves to blame.

[Noop]

I made the mistake of think Durant would score under 31 points. This streak for cash shit is serious business.

[Noop]

What an amazing shot by Durant, very Julius Evering like.

[Buccaneer]

As much as I like Boston beating NY, that last 16 seconds exemplifies a lot of what I hate about the NBA. First, even though Allen is a 3pt machine, a 2 pointer would've given them the lead. On that shot though, why were there two Celtics just standing around? NBA has become known for guys just standing around watching others taking shots. So then the Knicks was down by two and the Knicks guy shoots a three while double-teamed?? What was he thinking - trying to be The Man?

[Logan]

If the refs hadn't been working their asses off to keep OKC in the game, the Nuggets would be up by 15 or more now.

My bad, that was referencing the Carmelo offensive foul call.

[RainMaker]

How about the Heat shooting 24 more free throws than the Sixers yesterday. Basically impossible to win a game with that kind of differential.

For the record, I'm not saying that free throws should be equal, but that seems to be an extreme difference.
Philly isn't going to bring in the same ratings.

[Galaril]

My bad, that was referencing the Carmelo offensive foul call.

It was the correct call. The refs ignored two NY players fouling on the ensuing play prior to Allen shooting on Rondo I think.

[MikeVic]

I don't think you can just look at FTA and cry foul (no pun intended). There has to be a bit more to it than that. It's why I liked Bill Simmons' take on the matter (shots inside of ten feet compared to FTA). Also, some teams are bound to foul more than others. Having said that, of course there are cases that are just so one-sided that it isn't even funny.

[Arles]

They also missed the "sweep the leg" move by Garnet to free up Allen for the winning 3.

[TroyF]

Nice non offensive goaltending call ref. Incredibly nice. Stern's thank you card is in the mail.

Stern's cronies take what was a sensational ball game and destroy it with a call a four year old could make. Disgusting.

[MikeVic]

Nice non offensive goaltending call ref. Incredibly nice. Stern's thank you card is in the mail.

Stern's cronies take what was a sensational ball game and destroy it with a call a four year old could make. Disgusting.

Maybe if you team could hit more than 64% of their Free Throws, they would've won. Can't blame the refs for poor FT shooting.

[jbergey22]

Two calls went against Denver that were really bad.

Russell Westbrook with a charge that counted as a 3 point play and the Westbrook shot that was an obvious goaltend. Those 5 points decided the game.

On a side note
Im not sure I like the 2 point guard lineup late in the game. It leaves too many defensive issues. They also need to keep Westbrook under control. He could get wherever he wanted most of the game.

[jbergey22]

How about the Heat shooting 24 more free throws than the Sixers yesterday. Basically impossible to win a game with that kind of differential.

For the record, I'm not saying that free throws should be equal, but that seems to be an extreme difference.

Yeah, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh just run into people and get fouls called. It gets sickening.


Chris Paul dribbled around into contact a couple times today just to get free throw attempts today as well. On their side its smart basketball but it really sucks to watch.

Chris Paul had Fisher beat and he knew Fischer would be tailing behind so he basically stopped and had Fisher bump into him to get Free Throws.

[TroyF]

Maybe if you team could hit more than 64% of their Free Throws, they would've won. Can't blame the refs for poor FT shooting.

Ya know, the Nuggets could have done A LOT of things better. They could have shot better than 4-16 from the three point land. They could have shot better from the free throw line. They could have played better D on Durant and Westbrook. They could have run crisper fast breaks.

At the end of the day, despite all of that, they are up by a point with under a minute in the game when OKC is allowed to get the most obvious goal tend in the history of the league. Not one, not two, but THREE refs miss the guys hand going through the net and tipping it in.

If the right call is made, the Nuggets have the ball up one with 50 seconds left in the game. There is no lock that they win the game. But they were robbed of the chance to find out because they decided not to call a flat out obvious call that everyone in the arena could see.

Spare me all of the things the Nuggets COULD have done. What they had absolutely no power over was three refs deciding that offensive goaltending is allowed in the final minute of a game if it is going to give OKC the lead. And win OR lose, that spoiled an otherwise sensational game between two teams.

[Arles]

I don't understand how if you can use video to decide a 3 pointer or a shot clock violation - why you couldn't use it to see if something was goal-tending in the cylinder. These aren't really judgement calls.

[Cuckoo]

Definitely a bad call, and I agree with Arles.

That said, Denver didn't score on their next possession and OKC did. Yes, the call certainly could've changed the momentum, but if things continued as they happened, OKC would've had the lead anyway. The Nuggets were terrible in the final seconds, specifically with that in-bounds play and the ill-advised three pointer.

[whomario]

Battier´s wife also gave birth to their 2nd kid yesterday, crazy day for him i guess :)

Hope that Aaron Gray´s injury is indeed just a mild sprain, he and the whole Hornets bench were great, totally unexpected output from those guys.
Chris Paul was obviously great, hit some big, big shots as well. Overall the Hornets propably set some sort of record for "tough floaters hit over a 7 footer" in that game, at one point they had like 4 in a row of those from different guys :D

Durant with a pretty spectacular game yesterday, only 1 TO as well to go with his efficient 41 points.
I thougth Maynor and Collison were great off the bench, Collison is just a terrific defender and Maynor is propably the prototypical backup PG in that he seemingly never makes a bad decicion and allways does what is needed on both ends, really gives that 2nd unit structure for those 10-15 minutes where they aren´t getting by on explosiveness with Westbrook on the bench.

Nuggets could have really used Afflalo on Westbrook yesterday, what´s the outlook there ?

[Chief Rum]

Nuggets could have really used Afflalo on Westbrook yesterday, what´s the outlook there ?

lol...now that's interesting. Cuz you see, Westbrook probably learned a lot of what he knows about playing ball from Afflalo. :D

[TroyF]

Battier´s wife also gave birth to their 2nd kid yesterday, crazy day for him i guess :)

Hope that Aaron Gray´s injury is indeed just a mild sprain, he and the whole Hornets bench were great, totally unexpected output from those guys.
Chris Paul was obviously great, hit some big, big shots as well. Overall the Hornets propably set some sort of record for "tough floaters hit over a 7 footer" in that game, at one point they had like 4 in a row of those from different guys :D

Durant with a pretty spectacular game yesterday, only 1 TO as well to go with his efficient 41 points.
I thougth Maynor and Collison were great off the bench, Collison is just a terrific defender and Maynor is propably the prototypical backup PG in that he seemingly never makes a bad decicion and allways does what is needed on both ends, really gives that 2nd unit structure for those 10-15 minutes where they aren´t getting by on explosiveness with Westbrook on the bench.

Nuggets could have really used Afflalo on Westbrook yesterday, what´s the outlook there ?


The hope is Afflalo comes back next game. Of all the Nuggets depth, I think he's by far the most important player. (with Nene a close second)

[TroyF]

Definitely a bad call, and I agree with Arles.

That said, Denver didn't score on their next possession and OKC did. Yes, the call certainly could've changed the momentum, but if things continued as they happened, OKC would've had the lead anyway. The Nuggets were terrible in the final seconds, specifically with that in-bounds play and the ill-advised three pointer.

Again, I don't care about what should/would/could have happened and I'm not saying Denver wins the game if the right call is made.

I am saying that three highly paid professional officials chose not to see a hand going through the basket for a clear GT call. I use the word chose, because I think the only three people in the arena who "didn't" see it were the refs. I know the players all did. I know the entire Nuggets bench did. I know the Nuggets announcers, the OKC announcers and the national announcers did. Not after replay, right away.

I'm not even complaining about the Westbrook charge, that's a judgement call. I'm not complaining about the overall reffing. I thought it was horrible in the first in favor of the Thunder and I thought it was terrible in the second favoring the Nuggets. Outside of that, it was pretty solid.

But I'm still not sure how you MISS that call unless you decide to miss that call. And I don't care what happened afterward, it was spoiled for me because of that. As an OKC fan, you have a right to think "we'd have won anyway, that call didn't change a thing" As a Nuggets fan, I have every right to say that call changed the game and we'll now never truly know who would have won that game (and possibly this series if that's the closest Denver comes to beating OKC in their building) To me, that's a shame and it's an indictment of Stern's version of the NBA.

FWIW, I've said all along the three teams I'm cheering for these playoffs are the Nuggets, Bulls and Thunder. I just wanted to see an exciting game last night win or lose. Instead I got a comical piece of officiating to screw it up for me.

[Butter_of_69]

If you (and that's anyone, not just TroyF) believe that the NBA is fixed that obviously, I don't understand why you would continue to watch and/or care.

[TroyF]

If you (and that's anyone, not just TroyF) believe that the NBA is fixed that obviously, I don't understand why you would continue to watch and/or care.


Because I love the game. Love it, love it, love it. Last night was a snapshot of everything good about the game. Fun, fast paced, different styles, etc. It was the way the game was supposed to be played.

Yeah, I'm pissed off that the refs blew that call. Beyond pissed off actually. But it was a fun two hours of basketball.

I might be naive, but I truly believe after Stern is out of there, things will change for the better.

[jbergey22]

If you (and that's anyone, not just TroyF) believe that the NBA is fixed that obviously, I don't understand why you would continue to watch and/or care.

I dont think it is fixed but I do think the refs are told "Do whats right for business" At times a team plays so bad in a series that the refs cant even help them out.(Cavs last year)

[stevew]

I'm tired of refs bailing out stars, but allowing regular players to get pummeled. I'm not a big fan of the movement towards the perimeter game. I actually enjoy dominant post players, but they are virtually extinct. Dwight Howard should average 40ppg, but we get to see jackass perimeter players jack up threes.

[larrymcg421]

If you (and that's anyone, not just TroyF) believe that the NBA is fixed that obviously, I don't understand why you would continue to watch and/or care.

This.

I would never watch a sport if I thought it was as rigged as people say the NBA is.

[Arles]

I don't think it's rigged as much as it's just a bad setup/environment. Expecting refs to see everything unbiased in an element full of 20,000 screaming fans (esp late in a game) is a much tougher request than many people think. Imagine you're presenting religion in a conference room full of angry Catholics/Muslims/Atheists who've been drinking, even the most hard-headed of us is going to modify their presentation a hair - if only for self-preservation. That's what these refs deal with every night in the playoffs.

The only ways to improve this are more accountability by leadership (ie, Stern) on bad calls and using more technology to help. But, right now, the refs feel a bit like they are untouchable and even if they get caught up in the crowd and blow a call - they never have to face the music with Stern. However, if they knew they could get fined/suspended for missing a late call, they might try a little harder to battle through the crowd to get things right.

[Noop]

It is not easy being a ref.

[MrBug708]

Lakers are 0-5 in afternoon games this year now. Awesome

[TroyF]

I don't think it's rigged as much as it's just a bad setup/environment. Expecting refs to see everything unbiased in an element full of 20,000 screaming fans (esp late in a game) is a much tougher request than many people think. Imagine you're presenting religion in a conference room full of angry Catholics/Muslims/Atheists who've been drinking, even the most hard-headed of us is going to modify their presentation a hair - if only for self-preservation. That's what these refs deal with every night in the playoffs.

The only ways to improve this are more accountability by leadership (ie, Stern) on bad calls and using more technology to help. But, right now, the refs feel a bit like they are untouchable and even if they get caught up in the crowd and blow a call - they never have to face the music with Stern. However, if they knew they could get fined/suspended for missing a late call, they might try a little harder to battle through the crowd to get things right.

Refs have a difficult job. You will rarely hear me scream about charge vs. non charge or illegal screen vs. legal screen.

The biggest thing that drives me nutty is the obvious calls that just shouldn't be missed. The guys hand went through the net and hit a ball in the cylinder into the net. That's a call that can be seen from any angle, from any perspective and should NEVER be missed. Not in the first 10 seconds of a game, not in the last 10 seconds of a game.

What it comes down to is the accountability. There is none. Not only is there none from the league office, there is none from most of the fans. The fans blow this off as "well, team X shouldn't have let it come down to one call" unless it's their team that got jobbed. I'm universal in my disgust. I'd be just as pissed had the Nuggets got that call last night.

There is zero accountability. The refs who blew that call will be reffing another playoff game or two this week. The league will pretend this never happened and everyone beyond Hollinger at ESPN will continue to pretend that nothing questionable happened in the game. It's just sad.

[MikeVic]

Refs have a difficult job. You will rarely hear me scream about charge vs. non charge or illegal screen vs. legal screen.

The biggest thing that drives me nutty is the obvious calls that just shouldn't be missed. The guys hand went through the net and hit a ball in the cylinder into the net. That's a call that can be seen from any angle, from any perspective and should NEVER be missed. Not in the first 10 seconds of a game, not in the last 10 seconds of a game.

What it comes down to is the accountability. There is none. Not only is there none from the league office, there is none from most of the fans. The fans blow this off as "well, team X shouldn't have let it come down to one call" unless it's their team that got jobbed. I'm universal in my disgust. I'd be just as pissed had the Nuggets got that call last night.

There is zero accountability. The refs who blew that call will be reffing another playoff game or two this week. The league will pretend this never happened and everyone beyond Hollinger at ESPN will continue to pretend that nothing questionable happened in the game. It's just sad.

If this happened to the Raptors, my first thought would be how did they make it into the playoffs??

[Pumpy Tudors]

If this happened to the Raptors, my first thought would be how did they make it into the playoffs??
lol

[whomario]

in real time i couldn´t honestly claim anyone actually touched the ball plus if perkins doesn´t touch it there i´d wager there is a 95% chance that either him or Sefolosha still get that rebound and score with both having inside position on Martin , Sefolosha basically went to tip it unblocked there.
Wrong call, but i just fail to see the big conspiracy here.

I do agree that if calls are review-able, than any type of call should be and not just a select few, at least as soon as the next timeout is called ( as to not slow the game even more than it is by now). Most likely you have timeouts left, if you feel strongly about being on the wrong end of a call you should back it up by burning one of those. Or maybe give coaches a challenge option like in football (take away a timout when you are wrong)

It is not relevant that Perkins touches the net btw, nowhere in the nba rulebook has that any mention (surprised me as well)

[molson]

Players miss layups, throw balls into the stands, freeze up and forget what they're doing on defense. They're not fined or suspended for making a mistake (they just can't make too many of them). But goddam it when a referee makes a mistake!

The NBA did come out today and say that call was wrong. I'm sure they do have some kind of process to evaluate referees, I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that the NBA doesn't look at that at all. Though I don't think people would be happy unless the referees who make a mistake get 10 public lashings before the next game. And are then executed.

I don't know, you can take the game and the human refs as is, you can reject it, or you can take it but just be horrified by human error (or outright rigging) in every game ever played. The last one just seems unbelievably exhausting. How late do the playoffs go, mid-June? Almost two more months of constant ref complaints from the losing team after every single non-blowout game - fantastic!

[Arles]

Players miss layups, throw balls into the stands, freeze up and forget what they're doing on defense. They're not fined or suspended for making a mistake (they just can't make too many of them). But goddam it when a referee makes a mistake!
But if a player continually makes a mistake in late-game situations, he will be benched. This is akin to what many think should happen to refs. One bad call? OK, it happens. But 2-3 in key situations should involve some sort of punishment. But, the league doesn't operate like that.

The NBA did come out today and say that call was wrong. I'm sure they do have some kind of process to evaluate referees, I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that the NBA doesn't look at that at all. Though I don't think people would be happy unless the referees who make a mistake get 10 public lashings before the next game. And are then executed.
They look at it, they just rarely (if ever) suspend/punish refs for missed calls.

I don't know, you can take the game and the human refs as is, you can reject it, or you can take it but just be horrified by human error (or outright rigging) in every game ever played. The last one just seems unbelievably exhausting. How late do the playoffs go, mid-June? Almost two more months of constant ref complaints from the losing team after every single non-blowout game - fantastic!
I just think people want some accountability. Players, GMs, coaches and even cities (ie, Seattle/Sacramento) are all accountable in the NBA. However, refs never seem to be. I don't think it's unfair to ask that if a ref blows some calls in playoff games, that he be taken off the playoff rotation for a while. Then, the refs will atleast feel some accountability and may fight through crowds/tough angles/viewing video/... to try and get certain calls correct.

[molson]

But if a player continually makes a mistake in late-game situations, he will be benched. This is akin to what many think should happen to refs. One bad call? OK, it happens. But 2-3 in key situations should involve some sort of punishment. But, the league doesn't operate like that.

They look at it, they just rarely (if ever) suspend/punish refs for missed calls.

I just think people want some accountability. Players, GMs, coaches and even cities (ie, Seattle/Sacramento) are all accountable in the NBA. However, refs never seem to be. I don't think it's unfair to ask that if a ref blows some calls in playoff games, that he be taken off the playoff rotation for a while. Then, the refs will atleast feel some accountability and may fight through crowds/tough angles/viewing video/... to try and get certain calls correct.

So you really think that referee errors aren't really "errors", but behavioral issues that can be corrected if we give them a spanking (suspension/fine)? That seems silly. If a guy misses a layup, maybe he's not good enough, but I wouldn't see it as a "bad behavior" issue.

The NBA doesn't publically evaluate/discipline the referees, but what professional league does? Suspending referees for missing calls - that would be a really extreme measure, unprecedented in North American professional sports. I can understand that some leagues have trouble with seniority - once you get the job, you get to keep it, but I wonder how accurate that perception is. Has nobody ever been fired as an NBA ref for performance (or is it very rare)? Do we know that for a fact?

And "continually makes a mistake in late-game situations", that's just a perception too. If we take the last 3 minutes of every game, how many OBVIOUS bad calls are there v. correct calls or calls that could go either way (not including the seemingly high % of NBA calls where the opinion on the call depends on the rooting interest of the fan making the claim).

Edit: Just wanted to confirm over at the Knicks ESPN message board but YES, the refs also stole the Knicks game and gave it to the Celtics. Sure, you have a little of that in every sport, but in the NBA, its EVERY close game. (And I personally think that's because the game is broken, and not that there's all these people out there who could ref a perfect game if given the chance, and the only people who really suck at it are the ones who actually got the jobs)

[RainMaker]

Refs will make bad calls, it's part of the sport. My issue with the officiating is more toward bias toward superstars. I just want to see a foul called the same for both players.

[MikeVic]

Lol either stupid announcing or reffing early on in this game. Brand gets hit it the head and misses the easy shot, followed by a late whistle for a foul. Reggie Miller says "oh late foul, ref thought he'd get that basket."

Either it's a foul and it should have been a potential and1 play or not.

[stevew]

Violet Palmer still has a job.

[rjolley]

Lol either stupid announcing or reffing early on in this game. Brand gets hit it the head and misses the easy shot, followed by a late whistle for a foul. Reggie Miller says "oh late foul, ref thought he'd get that basket."

Either it's a foul and it should have been a potential and1 play or not.
I agree. It's one of my major issues with refs at any level. For the AAU team I coach, the refs will consistently wait to see if the shot has a chance before calling a foul. Either blow the whistle when the foul happens or don't, but don't let the guy get hacked on the shot then blow the whistle after he misses and the other team is going down the court.

Well, that and the way post play is called in youth basketball. It is not a foul if the bigger player has position and the smaller player runs into him and falls down. Or tries to shoot through his arms.

[BishopMVP]

So you really think that referee errors aren't really "errors", but behavioral issues that can be corrected if we give them a spanking (suspension/fine)? That seems silly. If a guy misses a layup, maybe he's not good enough, but I wouldn't see it as a "bad behavior" issue.

The NBA doesn't publically evaluate/discipline the referees, but what professional league does? Suspending referees for missing calls - that would be a really extreme measure, unprecedented in North American professional sports. I can understand that some leagues have trouble with seniority - once you get the job, you get to keep it, but I wonder how accurate that perception is. Has nobody ever been fired as an NBA ref for performance (or is it very rare)? Do we know that for a fact?I think the problem is that while certain calls (like the goaltending last night) are just missed, there are behavioral issues - Joey Crawford hates San Antonio, Danny Crawford hates the Celtics, Dick Bavetta hates Allen Iverson, etc, which are never addressed. There is also the belief that referees/David Stern support stars, home teams (and according to some, big markets) - with a fair amount of research proving the first two correct, and a decent amount of anecdotal evidence to support the third.

As for leagues that publicly evaluate and discipline referees, look no further than the NFL. Now, they don't suspend refs per se, but they certainly make an effort to only assign the best crews as the playoffs advance. They also have a weekly segment discussing controversial calls and judgments. The NBA has more games, with more 50/50 calls, so I'm not expecting them to come out and issue an opinion on every charge or shooting foul - but there is definitely room for the NBA to be more transparent and admit when certain calls were messed up.

[TroyF]

Players miss layups, throw balls into the stands, freeze up and forget what they're doing on defense. They're not fined or suspended for making a mistake (they just can't make too many of them). But goddam it when a referee makes a mistake!

The NBA did come out today and say that call was wrong. I'm sure they do have some kind of process to evaluate referees, I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that the NBA doesn't look at that at all. Though I don't think people would be happy unless the referees who make a mistake get 10 public lashings before the next game. And are then executed.

I don't know, you can take the game and the human refs as is, you can reject it, or you can take it but just be horrified by human error (or outright rigging) in every game ever played. The last one just seems unbelievably exhausting. How late do the playoffs go, mid-June? Almost two more months of constant ref complaints from the losing team after every single non-blowout game - fantastic!

The refs are compensated very well to make correct calls. With the exception of Whomario, everyone else affiliated with the game knew what happened. All three announcing crews, the players, the crowd (watch their reaction), the bench of the Nuggets. Everyone. Outside of the three people PAID to make the correct call.

I don't complain over every single non blowout game. I didn't complain about the Bulls game, the Celtics game, the Heat game or the Grizzlies game. I think the Blazers were screwed over in a major way. And I think the call at the end of the Nuggets game was so poor that all of the refs involved need some time off to think about how much they want to be refs.

If a player blows a layup, a team can take action against them. They can bench them. They can cut them. The media will show the play and condemn them. The NBA has a rule that said player has to show up for the post game interview or get fined.

The ref? Not so much. Everyone trips over themselves to justify a horrific call. The media pretends the call didn't happen in their analysis of the game. (or justifies the call by saying that the team should have gotten through it) The ref never has to respond to his horrible call.

Joey Crawford and Violet Palmer are two of the very worst refs in professional sports and they work major playoff games year in, year out. If they were players, they'd have been also rans a long, long time ago. There is zero accountability. Stop making excuses for the difficult job they have. When (not if, when), the NBA puts the refs under the control of a third party, the reffing will improve. Mark my words, it'll improve ten fold.

[BishopMVP]

And the NBA admits it was a goaltend... while also fining Nate McMillan for criticizing the referees NBA: Oklahoma City Thunder's key tip-in late in victory was goaltending - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/news/story?id=6384356)

[sooner333]

I was in the arena, knew it was close, but couldn't tell for sure. Of course, I was on the other end of the court and had a bad view, unlike the refs. It is too bad there was controversy at an otherwise exciting game. As a Thunder fan, I won't remember the game for the call, but instead for the great atmosphere, KD and Russ's dominance, and the impromtu cheers and chants in the arena concourse following the game.

[TroyF]

I was in the arena, knew it was close, but couldn't tell for sure. Of course, I was on the other end of the court and had a bad view, unlike the refs. It is too bad there was controversy at an otherwise exciting game. As a Thunder fan, I won't remember the game for the call, but instead for the great atmosphere, KD and Russ's dominance, and the impromtu cheers and chants in the arena concourse following the game.

Even though you went to the wrong Oklahoma school, I have nothing but respect for the OKC fans. They didn't cause the refs to act like idiots. I will remember the game for being an exciting game that Westbrook and Durant played out of their minds and the refs gave them the lead at an utterly destructive time for the Denver Nuggets.

[sooner333]

Even though you went to the wrong Oklahoma school, I have nothing but respect for the OKC fans. They didn't cause the refs to act like idiots. I will remember the game for being an exciting game that Westbrook and Durant played out of their minds and the refs gave them the lead at an utterly destructive time for the Denver Nuggets.

I certainly can't blame you. It's no fun to be on the wrong end of calls. I won't forget how distraught I was about the OU vs. Oregon football game.

[Coffee Warlord]

Saw it in the regular season, seeing it now. Fast, young teams give the Bulls fits.

[kingfc22]

I can't stand NBA officiating. The absolute worst.

How is that an offensive foul?

[DeToxRox]

On the heels of the ref talk in this thread of course a story comes out about the Mavs being 2-16 in playoff games reffed by Danny Crawford who is of course reffing tonight's Mavs/Blazers game.

[DeToxRox]

Dola, couldn't find the story, but here it is:

DALLAS -- As far as Dallas conspiracy theories go, referee Danny Crawford working Mavericks playoff games ranks right up there with who shot J.R. Ewing.

Crawford is the lead official of the crew that will work Tuesday night's Game 2 in the Dallas Mavericks' first-round series against the Portland Trail Blazers. That will make many Mavs fans cringe, given the franchise's miserable track record in playoff games worked by Crawford.

The Mavs have a 2-16 record in playoff games officiated by Crawford, including 16 losses in the last 17 games. Dallas is 48-41 in the rest of their playoff games during the ownership tenure of Mark Cuban, who has been fined millions of dollars in the last 11 years for publicly complaining about officiating.

"Not saying a word," Cuban wrote in an email when asked to comment on the Mavs' playoff history with Crawford.

An NBA spokesman did not immediately reply to an email requesting comment about whether the league has reviewed the Mavericks playoff games officiated by Crawford or considered not using him in a Dallas series due to a record that is at least a statistical outlier.

Dallas has a six-game playoff losing streak in games officiated by Crawford, which began with Game 3 of the 2006 NBA Finals, when the Miami Heat rallied from a 13-point deficit midway through the fourth quarter. Crawford also worked Game 6 of those Finals, when the Heat won their fourth consecutive game to claim the championship. The Heat had a 71-49 advantage in free throws in those two games.

The Mavs have been called for 2.3 fouls per game more than their opponents in playoff games officiated by Crawford, compared to a nearly even foul differential in their other playoff games since 2001. Dallas has averaged 6.8 fewer free throws than their opponents in playoff games Crawford has worked. Opponents have an edge in free throw differential in the rest of the Mavs' playoff games, but it's only by a little more than one attempt per game.

The assignment of Crawford to Game 2 of the Portland-Dallas series comes on the heels of Blazers coach Nate McMillan being fined $35,000 for publicly commenting on the officiating after the Mavs' 89-81 win Saturday night. McMillan questioned how the Mavs could have a 19-2 advantage in free throws during the fourth quarter of that game.

The Mavs won their first playoff game officiated by Crawford, a 94-91 victory over the Utah Jazz on April 28, 2001 to begin a comeback from an 0-2 hole to win that series. Their only win since then in a playoff game officiated by Crawford was in Game 5 of the 2006 Western Conference finals, when Dirk Nowitzki scored a franchise-playoff-record 50 points in a 117-101 victory over the Phoenix Suns.

Crawford worked Game 3 of the Mavs' first-round series against the San Antonio Spurs last season. That 94-90 loss for Dallas featured two controversial plays that went against the Mavs in the fourth quarter: an offensive foul against Nowitzki with the score tied and nine minutes remaining and a clear pushoff that Spurs guard Tony Parker got away with against J.J. Barea before hitting a shot that put San Antonio up five points in the final minute.

The Mavs are 4-14 against the betting line in playoff games officiated by Crawford.

[Passacaglia]

The 2-16 is no big deal, but the 16 losses in the last 17 games is crazy.

[TroyF]

The 2-16 is no big deal, but the 16 losses in the last 17 games is crazy.


If the Mavs were some also ran team that lost every first round series for about 2 decades straight and he was the ref, that would be one thing. But 2-16 when their record with any other official is 48-41?

It isn't a coincidence he was scheduled to ref after the ridiculous ref job Portland got in game one. And 2-16 isn't a coincidence either. Mavs had a 29-13 FTA advantage last game. (the two teams played 4 times in the regular season and Portland went to the line 80 times vs. 73 for the Mavericks)

The Mavs will not get to the line 29 times tonight unless Portland gets there 45.

At best, it will be an equal number of attempts for the Mavs, at worst they'll be blitzed.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Someone needs to look up tape of that first Mavericks playoff game officiated by Danny Crawford. Apparently, the Mavs won that game, but they must've really pissed Crawford off.

[Passacaglia]

Someone needs to look up tape of that first Mavericks playoff game officiated by Danny Crawford. Apparently, the Mavs won that game, but they must've really pissed Crawford off.

He was probably thinking that if he let them win the first playoff game, no one would suspect anything.

[Pumpy Tudors]

He was probably thinking that if he let them win the first playoff game, no one would suspect anything.
And he would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.

[Ksyrup]

Someone needs to look up tape of that first Mavericks playoff game officiated by Danny Crawford. Apparently, the Mavs won that game, but they must've really pissed Crawford off.

It's obvious - they were down 2-0 and he thought he'd let them win a game just because and they ended up coming back to take the series. That's what pissed him off.

[RainMaker]

Violet Palmer still has a job.
She is the worst official ever. It almost feels like the NBA is mocking women by using her. There has to be some woman out there who can be more competent than her.

[molson]

OK, so either:

-The NBA rigs the games (directly or subtly)
-Referees rig the game for personal gambling interests
-Current referees COULD be good, but are not because of arrogance/personal likes and dislikes of certain teams and players
-Current referees are simply not good enough talent-wise, but there's other people out there that could do well enough in the ref role
-The game is too fast and the foul rules too vague and convoluted for human refs to call games consistently.

(or some combination of the above)

Either way, this amounts to what seems like a garbage product, and this thread reinforces that - 90% of the posts are ref-related, and that's not good. But yet - the NBA seems to be on a popularity upswing. So I guess - what's the incentive to change? The NBA must believe that whatever the hell it's doing with the refs is GOOD for the league, otherwise they wouldn't do it (whatever "it" is, if anything).

[MikeVic]

I walked away from the game for a bit (fucking Vince Carter ruined some of it for me), but have gotten back into it because of all the exciting young talent. I'm sure others feel the same way (the young talent). I hope the reffing issues are fixed, but since I don't have crazy attachment to any particular team (like I do with the Steelers in the NFL), I kind of shrug away most of the reffing stuff. If I was a die-hard Mavs fan, I'd feel differently I think.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe there are a lot of people out there that just like the overall talent and can root for a number of teams because of players they like, and so they overlook the reffing stuff?

[JediKooter]

I'll start complaining about the refs missing calls when they start calling traveling and carrying the ball like they should.

[TroyF]

I walked away from the game for a bit (fucking Vince Carter ruined some of it for me), but have gotten back into it because of all the exciting young talent. I'm sure others feel the same way (the young talent). I hope the reffing issues are fixed, but since I don't have crazy attachment to any particular team (like I do with the Steelers in the NFL), I kind of shrug away most of the reffing stuff. If I was a die-hard Mavs fan, I'd feel differently I think.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe there are a lot of people out there that just like the overall talent and can root for a number of teams because of players they like, and so they overlook the reffing stuff?


Hell, that applies even to fans of individual teams. I love watching the Nuggets play right now, I watch them despite the fact I know the reffing is an issue. I LOVE watching Kevin Durant play, I'm not going to turn the tv off in a Lakers/Thunder conference finals even if the refs get involved. (and IMHO, there is no doubt in my mind they would get involved if they have to)

I think a lot of people love the beauty of the game. They watch it despite not liking a lot of players, they watch it despite the superstar calls, they watch it because for long parts of the two hours, there is a lot of fun to be had.

For me it's like Charlie Brown with Lucie holding the football. I know the NBA is going to take the ball away, I just know it. . . but I run up hoping to God they just keep the ball in place just this once. I might be an idiot. (ok, scratch the might) I just love the game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But yet - the NBA seems to be on a popularity upswing.

And American Idol has been among the most popular shows for how long now?

It bears some vague resemblance to music in much the same way that the NBA bears some faint resemblance to basketball. The answer to your question probably lies in there somewhere.

[whomario]

what worries me just as much is that the Mavs are also 2-16 in their last 18 road games in the playoffs, better fix that to do their part in advancing ...

[MikeVic]

I don't get the end of the game... Why did the ref have to see Garnett with the ball before dramatically signalling that he called a timeout or something? And why was there no foul or something when the entire celts bench ran to Garnett?

[Arles]

I thought it was a jump ball given Jeffries had his hand on the ball when the ref investigated and gave the timeout. Still, great performance by Melo. And, yet another playoff series where bad luck (eye injury, knee injury, suspension, ...) derails Amare.

[MikeVic]

Melo was nuts and this game was worth it to see his performance. I just thought the Garnett loose ball thign was funny because of the ref's "closer inspection" and then dramatic point to the Celtics bench, followed by the Celtics bench AND Rivers storming the court lol.

[Pumpy Tudors]

THE MAVS WON! DANNY CRAWFORD CAN'T EVEN CHEAT PROPERLY!!!!

[SirFozzie]

I don't get the end of the game... Why did the ref have to see Garnett with the ball before dramatically signalling that he called a timeout or something? And why was there no foul or something when the entire celts bench ran to Garnett?

A) Because if the ball was on the Out of Bounds line (or any part of Garnett), the timeout can't be called.

B) Because time was out. ANd if they called it, it would have been the most chickenshit call ever.

[whomario]

But they honestly should cut this bullshit "emphatic" signal calling. Seriously, why signal it as if you are doing a carate chop or sth like that ?:confused:


Just finished watching replays of all 3 games (jumping ahead and skipping time in between though)

I agree that Melo was spectacular at times, i was really rooting for him weirdly enough. If anyone had hit a few bucket they´d won, Jeffries was their 2nd most efficient option ;) (on a side note, has there been a comparable line to Bill Walker this year ? shooting 0-11 but being a +10 while on the court ?)

You know how you recognize the big paradigm shift with their offense though ? Landry Fields not being featured at all anymore, players like him just don´t work in an offense with 2 star players demanding the ball.

For Boston Rondo was great as were their other feature players, but that bench just sucks right now.
Brilliant last inbound play to burn time off the clock :)


Magic get an ugly win where everyone but Howard combines for just 18-66 FGs and they have just 9 assists to 16 TOs (0 and 7 for Howard, but other than that he was insanely good again)


Dallas goes up 2-0 and we truly live in a weird upside-down world when you get a headline saying "Stojakovic and Kidd lead Mavs to game 2 Win" :D
Obviously that´s hyperbole because really Nowitzki lead them by drawing tons of attention and (at least late in the game) with his agressive play. But still impressive showing by both those guys :)
Nowitzki still missed quite a few pretty easy shots (some even not just "for him" but really easy) but went hard to the basket and attacked, especially when Portland switched (which they did way too much).

[Logan]

Fields had plenty of opportunities early on yesterday...nothing you would describe as "scheme-related"...and was simply awful.

[bulletsponge]

i knew dallas would win the second that 2-16 ref record came out. if they didnt win all the media would be pointing it out today and next time he refs a dallas playoff game. now its not a story and the press can go back to its blind complicity with sterns "referees"

[Passacaglia]

i knew dallas would win the second that 2-16 ref record came out. if they didnt win all the media would be pointing it out today and next time he refs a dallas playoff game. now its not a story and the press can go back to its blind complicity with sterns "referees"

Came out? I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board last year around this time.

[Neon_Chaos]

Came out? I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board last year around this time.

It's pretty much common knowledge that Dan Crawford hates the Mavs. :D

[bulletsponge]

Came out? I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board last year around this time.

came out as in its all over ESPN yesterday

[larrymcg421]

I'm not sure I understand the 6th Man Award if it goes to someone who started 35 games and finished 3rd in MPG (almost as many minutes as Kobe!) for his team.

[stevew]

I'm not sure I understand the 6th Man Award if it goes to someone who started 35 games and finished 3rd in MPG (almost as many minutes as Kobe!) for his team.

I think you can start nearly half of the games. Besides, whomever finishes the game is far more important than whomever starts. I think it's a pretty poor award, and it should be based more on minutes, etc than simply a generic starts number.

[whomario]

it has allways been given to guys like Odom (maybe a few less starts), almost exclusively guys that were better than at least 1 or often 2 starters on their team and played nearly or over 30 minutes. That´s how the 6th man role was "developed" by Auerbach and others afterall, why not give the award out to players like that ?

I agree that the starts gave Odom an (unfair ?) edge over other candidates, but i really don´t see the issue of the winner playing 30+ minutes. Just look at who won that award before and the number of minutes they played, this isn´t a recent trend but those are the type of guys the award was created for in the first place because that´s what the 6th man is.

You could also call it either the "tweener-award" or the "combo-guard/Forward" award, maybe the "great player who can´t defend starters" award.
There Odom is an exception more in the mold of Manu or Schrempf and McHale in that they were actually raising the level of their 2nd unit teammates like the MVP candidates do with the starters.

[larrymcg421]

But they don't always pick guys like Odom. Past winners Ben Gordon, Corliss Williamson, Rodney Rodgers, Danny Manning, John Starks, Toni Kukoc, Dell Curry, Bill Walton, and Bobby Jones all had fairly low minute totals and more fit what I think of when I hear "6th man".

It's not a big deal. I just find the criteria they use to consider someone a 6th man to be pretty weird.

[whomario]

But they don't always pick guys like Odom. Past winners Ben Gordon, Corliss Williamson, Rodney Rodgers, Danny Manning, John Starks, Toni Kukoc, Dell Curry, Bill Walton, and Bobby Jones all had fairly low minute totals and more fit what I think of when I hear "6th man".

It's not a big deal. I just find the criteria they use to consider someone a 6th man to be pretty weird.




were their candidates with more minutes in those years though ?

I think the criteria is the only one that makes sense, being the 6th man on the court for the majority of the games. Everything else is subjective. And if we said "but he can only average 25 MPG" that would essentially mean "best bench player that isn´t good enough to actually be playing more than 25 minutes" , now that i´d find weird :)

[MrBug708]

Odom started because of injuries, which is kind of what you'd expect a 6th man to do

[whomario]

couple of neat feel-good type stories on NBA players :

SI Piece on Andrew Bynum : CENTER ANDREW BYNUM IS ALWAYS TINKERING, WHETHER IT'S - 04.25.11 - SI Vault (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1184609/1/index.htm)

deadspin article on unlikely connection between Kendrick Perkins and a couple NBA bloggers : Deadspin, Sports News without Access, Favor, or Discretion (http://deadspin.com/#!5793919/how-these-two-white-guys-wound-up-in-this-kendrick-perkins-family-photo)



OKC was impressive yesterday, Durant especially (very in controll, made very good choices with the ball) but he got tons of help from various players.
They also hacked the hell out of Nene, deciding that FTs are better to swallow than dunks.
Pretty stinging comment from Karl on why Smith and Andersen didn´t play in the 2nd half ("when they came in the floodgates opened" or sth like that)

For the Spurs Manu was back and a +16 despite not hitting a 3, going 7-13 from the line and havin 5 TOs.
Spurs look so much more fluid when he´s in, takes pressure off of everybody else.

[MikeVic]

I just came here to post about the Bynum article. Just amazing. I'd love to be in that Lakers locker room or team plane just to talk to the guys on that team. Seriously, Gasol is into opera and medicine. Bynum is a huge nerd. Odom is all about candy and the Kardashian. Artest is nuts. Phil Jackson probably can teach you a thing or two about life in general. And Kobe is Kobe.

Short summary of the article whomario linked to:
Andrew Bynum is a huge nerd | Blog Archive | The Basketball Jones | Blogs | TheScore.com (http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2011/04/21/andrew-bynum-is-a-huge-nerd/)

[whomario]

very impressed by both the Pacers (for playing with grit and agressiveness as huge underdogs) and the Bulls (for taking those shots and go with it), good 3 games i wouldn´t have expected.
Too bad the Pacers couldn´t take 1 of those games, would have liked this to continue longer.

Kyle Korver has been super clutch, very happy for him having such a great impact. Scored 10 points in the 4th yesterday after hitting crucial 3s late in both game 1 and 2.

Mavs let this one get away, they got what they wanted for the most part but had 1 bad stretch early in the 4th.

[SirFozzie]

Celtics taking the Knicks to the woodshed through three..

[SirFozzie]

Looks like we're going to have a couple suspensions for Orlando-Atlanta Game four after a "what are you going to do about it" headbutt and an Orlando player swinging back, and Howard gets T'd up as well.

[SirFozzie]

Dola: That three shouldn't count unless he called bank. Ri-freaking diculous.

I think he was trying for a long rebound off the rim to waste the remaining seconds.

[whomario]

the Celtics starters played ridiculously amazing, holy crap was that beautiful to watch.
How often do you have 2 guys hitting 30 and 6+ 3s and another get 20 assists (celtics playoff record) and a TD.

I know part is that the Knicks weren´t defending much, but it was still fun to observe :)
Allen is 15-20 from deep for the series.

[RainMaker]

That Celtics game put hope back that the Miami-Boston series could be epic.

[whomario]

Crawford on his last shot against the Magic : "I just tried to get to my comfort zone, my sweet spot," [Jamal Crawford] said. "I felt pretty good getting there. I thought I got a good look, and it just happened to go down for me."

if i were his coach i wouldn´t be sure if i should lough, cry or smack him in the face ;) If that´s a good look than Ron Artest has good shot selection.

[Noop]

Derrick Rose = Allen Iverson?

Not exactly alike because Rose is a better teammate and is at least willing to play point guard. However I can not help but shake that feeling when I watch Rose play.

[whomario]

what stood out today was that virtually every single miss in the 2nd half was short by him, maybe that ankle was an issue afterall ? (not meant as an excuse, don´t really care about either team)
but he surely takes some dumb shots, especially threes.

But the Pacers sure tried everything to loose that game in the 4th, holy smokes were they rattled.

ugly game in Portland in the first quarter ... Barea is kind of an amazing player for his size (5´10 and alligator arms)

[whomario]

Brandon Roy turned back time, pretty much by himself brought Portland back from down 20 in the 4th, culminating in a 4 point play to tie it.

Mavs falling apart, wow ... No sets run properly, nothing in transition.

1 minute to go, tie game ... And now he banks one in over Marion, holy hell is that amazing to watch even as i´m rooting for the Mavs.

I don´t get why they wouldn´t (couldn´t ?) call that out of bounds call as a jump ball, both guys put it out equally really.

[whomario]

How don´t you foul there or at least pressure ? Holy crap was that bad, made the Pacers look like a good crunch time team.

No idea how the Mavs can come back from that for the rest of the series, holy hell was that an epic collapse/choke job.

Hats off to Roy.

[RainMaker]

Derrick Rose = Allen Iverson?

Not exactly alike because Rose is a better teammate and is at least willing to play point guard. However I can not help but shake that feeling when I watch Rose play.
His shot selection is more like Tracy McGrady. Just fallen in love with a 3 that he's not all that good at shooting.

Not feeling real confident about the Bulls going forward. Hope I'm wrong but it feels like they've been exposed.

[TroyF]

How don´t you foul there or at least pressure ? Holy crap was that bad, made the Pacers look like a good crunch time team.

No idea how the Mavs can come back from that for the rest of the series, holy hell was that an epic collapse/choke job.

Hats off to Roy.



Mavs will not come back.

Nuggets are done. The call in game one was disastrous and they had their chances in game three but went cold at the wrong time. OKC has a good chance to go all the way. They are long, play solid D and their superstars get them 7 or 8 calls a game. They had at least 4 laughers tonight that accounted for 8 points from the line.

Perkins gave them the toughness they needed as well.

The only other thing I'll take away from this series is the wonderment how Westbrook gets the calls he gets. He's a punk, treats the refs like garbage, and only gets opening because of Durant yet he's treated like a superstar.

There were multiple times this series he threw cheap shoulder blows into Nuggets guarding him and the refs looked the other way. I just don't get it. A guy like Rondo would average about 15 assists a game playing at the speed they play at.

[TroyF]

fwiw, the last shot where Harden went under JR? Westbrook shot SIX Ft on similar shots tonight. Not 1 or 2, but 6. I don't care they don't give the call to JR in that situation, but he was fouled and you've called the same exact call all night to Westbrook.

Nuggets deserved to lose that game, but the officials are typical NBA horrific.

[Noop]

fwiw, the last shot where Harden went under JR? Westbrook shot SIX Ft on similar shots tonight. Not 1 or 2, but 6. I don't care they don't give the call to JR in that situation, but he was fouled and you've called the same exact call all night to Westbrook.

Nuggets deserved to lose that game, but the officials are typical NBA horrific.

It was bad. This OKC team is getting a lot of superstar calls this series.

[Cuckoo]

Wow, I thought OKC got hosed on several calls, particularly early, and that Denver got away with a lot. I don't know the exact count, but it sure seemed like Denver had a decent edge in free throws; they just didn't make them. And that last shot was not a foul on Harden. I really hope we don't get another game 1 series of complaints from Denver fans because they would be wrong this time, in my opinion.

Whatever... Very good to see the Thunder win this one. It was not one I expected. I'm keeping an eye on that Spurs/Grizzlies series now, and even though you'd think it'd be good for OKC if Memphis won, the Thunder haven't always matched up well with the Grizzlies. Of course, they have Perkins now, so maybe it'd be different.

[Cuckoo]

DOLA

Westbrook is an interesting guy. I, of course, love him. But he's one of those players that if you're a fan of the opposite team, you think he's a punk and hate him furiously. He's definitely confident, even cocky, and he's not afraid to show off when he does some of the ridiculously talented things he does.

[MikeVic]

I haven't been able to watch the Nuggets/Thunder series since they haven't aired here... but FT game-by-game:

Denver: 21/33, 28/37, 30/45
Oklahoma City: 22/28, 24/28, 33/43

Now, this has always been a superstar league and Oklahoma City arguably has two of the bigger superstars right now. However, Denver still has more FTA in EACH of the three games.

Hit your FTs, and maybe you'd deserve to win.

[stevew]

I guess I find it hard to give a fuck about an 88 free throw game, but maybe that's just me. NBA, it's TwentyOne-Tastic

[Galaril]

Derrick Rose = Allen Iverson?

Not exactly alike because Rose is a better teammate and is at least willing to play point guard. However I can not help but shake that feeling when I watch Rose play.

Wilbon, Cowherd, Skip Bayless, and Dan Patrick have all said the same thing.

[Noop]

Wilbon, Cowherd, Skip Bayless, and Dan Patrick have all said the same thing.

Damn guess that makes me a dick head.

[TroyF]

I haven't been able to watch the Nuggets/Thunder series since they haven't aired here... but FT game-by-game:

Denver: 21/33, 28/37, 30/45
Oklahoma City: 22/28, 24/28, 33/43

Now, this has always been a superstar league and Oklahoma City arguably has two of the bigger superstars right now. However, Denver still has more FTA in EACH of the three games.

Hit your FTs, and maybe you'd deserve to win.

It's not only the FT. It's never only about the FT. Which team DESERVED the FT?

The game one Dallas/Portland was notable for the FT spread for Dallas and the fact Portland destroyed them inside.

If you look at the times Westbrook went to the line after his shot had already went out and was pushed under by a Nugget, it was the exact same thing as the Harden play at the end of the game. If you call it for one, you should be calling it for the other.

I stated pretty clearly multiple times the right team won the game and the Nuggets blew their chances. For better or for worse, the Nuggets never recovered after the comical no call in game one.

OKC made a decision (and the correct one) to foul every Nuggets big who had the ball in the last two games. The Nuggets PF/C had 26 FTA last night. Nene had 18 of the attempts the other night. The reason the Nuggets were shooting more FT is because OKC was intentionally fouling. (what's comical is the Nuggets STILL outscored the Thunder in the paint last night, (who was the more aggressive team?).

The calls on Westbrook were the terrible ones IMHO, but I still felt OKC won the game. Then the call happened at the end of the game that was a replica of earlier plays. Just so you OKC fans know, JR is one of the worst clutch FT shooters I've ever seen, Denver still doesn't win the game because I'd bet money he'd have missed at least one. But if you've given Westbrook the calls, you give the call to the Nuggets player. That's all I'm saying.

[duckman]

Troy, hate to break it to you, but no ref is going to blow the whistle on that play. That's refereeing 101.

[TroyF]

Troy, hate to break it to you, but no ref is going to blow the whistle on that play. That's refereeing 101.

And they shouldn't have blown it for Westbrook then. That's all I'm saying. I understand you don't blow the whistle there, but you don't blow it for him either. That's all.

I hope OKC wins it all. I'm not some hater who despises OKC. I just wish the refs had, ya know, acted consistently.

[RPI-Fan]

It's not only the FT. It's never only about the FT. Which team DESERVED the FT?

The game one Dallas/Portland was notable for the FT spread for Dallas and the fact Portland destroyed them inside.

If you look at the times Westbrook went to the line after his shot had already went out and was pushed under by a Nugget, it was the exact same thing as the Harden play at the end of the game. If you call it for one, you should be calling it for the other.

I stated pretty clearly multiple times the right team won the game and the Nuggets blew their chances. For better or for worse, the Nuggets never recovered after the comical no call in game one.

OKC made a decision (and the correct one) to foul every Nuggets big who had the ball in the last two games. The Nuggets PF/C had 26 FTA last night. Nene had 18 of the attempts the other night. The reason the Nuggets were shooting more FT is because OKC was intentionally fouling. (what's comical is the Nuggets STILL outscored the Thunder in the paint last night, (who was the more aggressive team?).

The calls on Westbrook were the terrible ones IMHO, but I still felt OKC won the game. Then the call happened at the end of the game that was a replica of earlier plays. Just so you OKC fans know, JR is one of the worst clutch FT shooters I've ever seen, Denver still doesn't win the game because I'd bet money he'd have missed at least one. But if you've given Westbrook the calls, you give the call to the Nuggets player. That's all I'm saying.

Troy,

You have insightful, interesting analysis of games. But god the whining is terrible. It completely undercuts all the great points you make on a regular basis.

[whomario]

please don´t take this personally @ TroyF, Stevew and others.

First thing : I do agree that there should be acountability and we propably need a different system for how referees are assigned but then again it´s not like there´s thousands of yound kids aspiring to be referees, are there ? That´s a problem with the american sports system, there is no "going through the ranks" like with european sports with the lower leagues system. There is also the simple fact that they are employed by the league and not the US basketball federation (or whatever it´s called) like it is in Europe. Either you are an NBA (or d-league) ref or you are no Ref at all, or am i missing some connection with the NCAA ?

I personally have been enjoying this playoffs a great deal so far and with all that is at times wrong with refereeing there is just as much wrong with how people use it as an excuse nowadays for everything. It´s come to a point where everything gets twisted around so many times that it´s just insane. One game it´s the favourite getting favoured because of their reputation, the next it´s the underdog because it needs to be interesting, then you can bet some group of people will find a motive for just about any team getting favoured if they seemingly do.

One should examine mistakes, but you can´t go and go "the win was propably deserved but the refs also were crap" every single time there was a handfull of mistakes because that will allways be the case with a game as weirdly constructed as basketball. The crazy thing is that if the game result gets reversed, in 95% of cases the other group of fans reacts the same way.

And i´m sorry, but if a blown call in game 1 makes you loose a series than you also get to whine about missing the bus because of someone holding you up for 30 seconds at the beginning of an half hour walk to the station instead of blaming yourself for browsing at the magazione stand for 5 minutes.

With the super stars it´s also simply a case of them doing those things way more often than role players, of course referees react to players differently if they see the same move a million times and propably see it in replay after games as well.
They see that a Westbrook gets fouled 8 out of 10 times on a certain move, so of course they are more likely to see just that happening in the game where they have a split second to decide. That´s just the nature of it, anyone who has ever refereed any sport will tell you that even on the amateur level (where you know jack about the players) you´ll adjust even during the game.
The first time a big, strong guy falls down while battling his man you might let it go, but after the 2nd or 3rd time you´ll look closer and propably see his oponent trip him or grab him from behind because the situation occurs multiple times and you pay extra attention to it.

In an ideal world the refs react to every play and every player seperately, but unless you put them in a room with a TV that somehow morphs out player faces, jersey numbers and overall resemblance it ain´t going to happen.

If after a game like yesterday´s Mavs-Blazers game i have to wake up and read a million "Sure the Mavs weren´t great but the refs still blew it" then i can only stop just short of punching sth.

The Refs made mistakes and i personally think a situation like that loose ball out of bounds late should result in a jump ball. But if you look at the game you´ll see blown calls in favour of the Mavs as well.

Who the hell are you kidding claiming the Refs had anything to do with Chandler being to effing stupid to keep his hands away time after time, Kidd being too slow (and ending up in the wrong place to often), Carlisle being to stubborn to adjust his rotation (Chandler has 5 fouls and Kidd is in foul trouble while Roy attacks both, yet Carlisle refuses to make a change) and the Mavs just plain and simply quitting to execute and running the clock down with 8 minutes to go ? There were half a dozen situations where Kidd was the first crossing halfcourt with no one even bothering to run the floor.

They were outscored like 40-15 to end the game, jesus ... There is no but involved here, none. Had the Refs actively tripped up Mavs players and conciously called every situation in the Blazers favour, even then you shouldn´t be able to fucking loose a 20+ point lead over a 12 minute period against a team that ran the same god damn play for the entirety of that run lead by a guy who on a wonderfull night still was the slowest guy on the court.

[whomario]

Ibaka was brilliant yesterday btw, not just the statline but the fact that he was a factor on nearly every possession on both ends, played with tons of energy and contested everything, played brilliant defensively not just in the middle but also closing out.
That´s maybe even the biggest thing about the Perkins trade, giving Ibaka freedom to roam defensively with 2 defensive minded Centers logging all the minutes at the 5 (Mohammed really is solid as well)


Knicks about to be swept, they can´t buy a basket.

Glad the 76ers won a game. Also, for as much as one might hope the Heat fail, i can´t help but be impressed by Joel Anthony. One of those guys that make a living being amazing at everything that doesn´t involve doing anything with the ball. The guy can´t score at all and isn´t even a good rebounder but sure plays great and versatile defense and sets screens like his live depends on it.
There were a couple great articles on him recently, here´s one from before the playoffs started: Joel Anthony: the spectacle who works - Heat Index Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/6021/joel-anthony-the-spectacle-who-works) (i realize it´s the heat section on espn, still sth i can get behind ;) )

[JonInMiddleGA]

So, what happens in Orlando if they manage to lose this series?

[jbergey22]

Amare is getting extremely close to being known as a playoff "choker." You had a great regular season Amare what the hell happened in this Boston series?

Maybe he has really poor luck but sitting out because of back spasms and following it up with poor performance doesnt really clear up any rep he had in Phoenix.

[stevew]

Amare was hurt and the Knicks have 3 good players, no size, and Billips was hurt, too. Plus D'Antoni isn't a good coach.

[jbergey22]

Amare was hurt and the Knicks have 3 good players, no size, and Billips was hurt, too. Plus D'Antoni isn't a good coach.

The fact that they lost to Boston doesnt bother me its the other stuff with Amare that has been said in this very thread and how true it was in the Boston series.

[Radii]

I have a massive mancrush on whomario after that rant. Beautiful.

[Radii]

Damn guess that makes me a dick head.

Nah, I heard Cowherd doing his "Rose = Iverson" routine. You said two sentences before nicely qualifying "well not exactly but here's my point". cowherd rants not stop for 20 fucking minutes and never qualifying it in any way. He just goes on and on and on about how they are the exact same player who will never ever win anything.

[stevew]

So, what happens in Orlando if they manage to lose this series?

Dwight Howard gets traded to the Lakers for Bynum and some picks?

[Galaril]

Dwight Howard gets traded to the Lakers for Bynum and some picks?

I actually believe the Celtics unloading Perkins is a sign they must be serious considering figuring out a way to get Howard via FA when he is done in Orlando.No other real reason why they would of so quickly jettisoned perkins and leave themselves with no center after this year.

[stevew]

There's no way the Celtics can get him with their current roster construction, big three/four consume more than the cap amongst themselves.

[DaddyTorgo]

There's no way the Celtics can get him with their current roster construction, big three/four consume more than the cap amongst themselves.

Depends when Howard's deal is done and when Garnett/Allen are done and what they would resign for if they didn't retire...

[RainMaker]

So, what happens in Orlando if they manage to lose this series?

Tough to say. I don't think they'll push to trade him. Nor do I see much reason for Howard to want to be traded. He can play out his contract and have the pick of the litter for where he wants to play. This isn't like the Melo situation where getting a contract in under the current CBA was a concern.

So what motivation does a team have for gutting their team for him when they can just sign him in the offseason the following year? You also have to assume that Orlando is going to demand that Arenas or Hedo gets thrown in the deal as well. Not all that attractive. But lets look at teams that could potentially deal for him:

Lakers - Bynum is a nice piece although it's tough to tell what his value is with his injury problems. I'd have to imagine Orlando would want more and I can't find a scenario where they can throw Hedo and/or Arenas into the deal without the Lakers having to give up Odom in the process.

Bulls - They have some nice young pieces they can package with Noah in a deal (Taj, Asik). As well as 4 first round picks over the next 2 years that can be included. But I see no way to match up salaries for a deal and no way that Orlando can tack on Hedo or Arenas as a tax.

Nets - They would love him and could give up Lopez, but that's likely not enticing enough to lure the Magic unless they can get them to take on Arenas as well.

Miami - Orlando would never trade him to a rival, but getting Bosh could be the most value available for the Magic.

Denver - They have a lot of pieces to make it work and could still put a nice team around him. Not sure how willing their owner would be to take on Arenas or Hedo though.

Basically it comes down to the fact that not many teams can offer anything close to his value. And the ones that can are in small markets that he may not be interested in. I think the only way Orlando does it is if they can clear Arenas and/or Hedo from their books while bringing in a young talent and plenty of picks.

I still think Orlando waits it out and hopes he signs an extension. They've invested too much into him and threw all their chips in with the trades they made this season. I hope he stays in Orlando.

[RainMaker]

I don't know why comparing Rose to AI would be an insult. Iverson was an incredible talent who unfortunately had issues on and off the court with his attitude and demeanor. He had some incredible seasons and took a team with no one to the Finals.

Iverson was more athletic and I believe a better pure scorer than Rose (although that could change). Rose has more height and is a better passer. I don't think they are that similar but I don't think it's a negative to be compared to him in any way.

[jbergey22]

I don't know why comparing Rose to AI would be an insult. Iverson was an incredible talent who unfortunately had issues on and off the court with his attitude and demeanor. He had some incredible seasons and took a team with no one to the Finals.

Iverson was more athletic and I believe a better pure scorer than Rose (although that could change). Rose has more height and is a better passer. I don't think they are that similar but I don't think it's a negative to be compared to him in any way.

Iverson may have been a scorer but for the most part he wasnt an effective scorer. Rose is a lot more efficient.

Iversons True Field Goal Percentage(which includes FTs) was less than .520, Rose's career average is .535 with it being at .550 this year his breakout year. IMO Rose is a lot better player right now that Iverson ever was.

[Atocep]

Iverson may have been a scorer but for the most part he wasnt an effective scorer. Rose is a lot more efficient.


Iverson was definitely an effective scorer and his efficiency wasn't as bad as his FG% suggests. He was always among the league leaders in free throw attempts and makes per game.

[stevew]

Depends when Howard's deal is done and when Garnett/Allen are done and what they would resign for if they didn't retire...


I guess you could max out Howard to play with Rondo, Peirce and 12 Joel Anthony's.

[jbergey22]

Iverson was definitely an effective scorer and his efficiency wasn't as bad as his FG% suggests. He was always among the league leaders in free throw attempts and makes per game.

He also shot in the very low 40 percent range most years. He was a good player because his penetration would lead to rebound dunks and he would draw fouls but many of times he would shoot his team right out of the game.

IMO he is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. When he wasnt scoring he just wasnt much benefit to have on the team. We sort of seen this in his later years.

[MikeVic]

I don't know, I think he's adequately rated. What he managed to do with those crappy Sixers teams was pretty cool.

[jbergey22]

I don't know, I think he's adequately rated. What he managed to do with those crappy Sixers teams was pretty cool.

I agree it was cool what he did with that team.

They were a great defensive team that really didnt have anyone else to make shots so he fit in perfectly.

Put him on the 93 Bulls or 09 Lakers and Phil Jackson would have him on the bench for shooting ineffectively and killing the offensive flow. I dont know that there was a good system for him other than 1 on 1 freestyle basketball.

[LloydLungs]

Chris Paul put up a 27-15-13 tonight against the Lakers. First triple-double EVER against the Lakers in their 712 lifetime playoff games, and he had it before the end of the third quarter.

Unlike the Hornets' game 1 upset, where a lot of their suspect supporting cast actually stepped up big (Willie Green, Aaron Gray, Jarrett Jack), this game was pretty much all CP3, even if Jack did get the last five points of the night. A masterful, gutty, incredible performance. Will be heartbreaking when he leaves. It's been a privilege to watch him in person the past few years.

Hornets won't actually win the series, but have officially made the Lakers work really hard for it. Glad they're making them expend energy in the first round.

[jbergey22]

Im wondering where this Chris Paul had been since January of this year. Up until these playoffs he probably had the worst 4 month stretch in his life.

[MrBug708]

I dont mind the Hornets winning some games, I have game 7 tickets for the first round and am pleasantly surprised that I might actually be able to go

[whomario]

Dwight Howard has 1 assist to 26 Turnovers for the series which has to be just as historic as his 33/18 average, the Hawks play him excellently by playing him 1:1 a lot and standing in the passing lanes when they do bring an aditional defender. As a result the Magic are also just 21-96 from 3 for the series. But hes also just not a good passer at all, that´s sth that will likely hold him back along with his FT shooting.
That´s not to say he deserves much of the blame really, his teammates are atrocious for the most part this series. Inexplicable that on the one night where Arenas shows up you then have Nelson and Turkoglu go 5-24 ...

Chris Paul was amazing yesterday, controlled everything offensively. The Hornets big men also were great battling the Laker bigs once more. Plus Trevor Ariza was semi-effective !

[Galaril]

I dont mind the Hornets winning some games, I have game 7 tickets for the first round and am pleasantly surprised that I might actually be able to go

I would start worrying about losing the series. Kobe dinged up not looking good.

[QuikSand]

Dwight Howard has 1 assist to 26 Turnovers for the series which has to be just as historic as his 33/18 average

In all fairness... if you're Dwight Howard, on that team, who are YOU passing the rock to?

[whomario]

i see that and it´s clearly a combination of all 3 factors (bad teammates, great defense, lack of ability to pass out of the post) of which i would blame Howard the least. But that statline really shows how much the Series is going the way the Hawks want it to go. Let Howard score but annoy him with different matchups and make him work for everything, don´t let him off the hook by allowing him to involve and depend on his teammates.


Of course the Magic also simply shoot worse than normal, but they also don´t have the amount of wide open looks they normally have.

Even on offense the Hawks get what they want or rather get away with shooting and hitting ridiculous jumpers. They wouldn´t be winning this if they challenged Howard inside, thus they put all their eggs in the crazy-jumpshot basket.

Weird series altogether.

[Arles]

If you take out Howard, the Magic are shooting 32% as a team. If you look at just guards/SFs (likely kickout targets), they are below 30%. So, even if he makes 10 nice kickouts in a game, only 2 would likely go in. And, given the number of touches he's likely to have in a game, it's not crazy for him to have a really high TO/A number.

I'm just amazed at how terrible Orlando shoots the ball. Given the attention Howard gets, you'd think Hedo, Redick, J-Rich and others could shoot better than 25%.

[whomario]

Have you watched much of the series (not meant negatively, just curious) because imo when watching it than it makes sense, he actually doesn´t get all that much attention from the Hawks perimeter defenders in terms of double teams or sagging off their man.

Again, i´m not even blaming any of that on Howard but meant to have that number showcase what the Hawks do right. He is a poor passer, but that´s not the problem which is more that the other Magic fail to adjust to the Hawks defense.

The Hawks don´t pack it in, they simply defend him hard and ruthless with the main defender (Collins, Zaza, Armstrong) and only ever double if he makes a move (if at all) and unlike most teams in the regular season do don´t sag off the shooters "just in case".
Normally Howard is still a piss poor passer but the space he creates allows others to make easy plays by swinging the ball around.

The Magic shooters are just so used to having space to shoot that they are unable to adjust to having to move to get open.

[Arles]

The Magic have had a lot of open shots in this series and missed - esp Hedo and J-Rich. Plus, Howard is so much better than anyone defending him that he often gets a high percentage chance when he gets the ball deep.

I do agree that the Magic offense is pretty awful. I'm surprised they haven't done more PNRs with Hedo/Howard or Arenas/Howard, but the problem is that Orlando can't hit jumpers in this series.

[Young Drachma]

How 'bout those Grizzlies?

[Young Drachma]

Too bad the next round in the west won't be Seattle v. Vancouver. I guess at least they have MLS. ;)

[Noop]

So Memphis is about to eliminate the Spurs? What are the chances of the Spurs deciding to go into full rebuild mode after this debacle.

[TroyF]

So Memphis is about to eliminate the Spurs? What are the chances of the Spurs deciding to go into full rebuild mode after this debacle.


How can they? You are built around 2 older players. You aren't trading TD or Manu, so you just tweak and reload. We don't need to eliminate them yet though. The first two losses were close. They have two of the next three at home and the Grizz are a young team who have never been in this position before.

I honestly have no idea what Westbrook was doing this game for OKC. I think he and Perkins both felt the Nuggets would just tank and were stunned and pissed off they came out and played hard. But what the hell is he doing shooting the ball over 30 times? He flat out cost OKC the sweep with his selfish play. He was terrible defending Lawson and was beyond selfish on offense. Durant needs to sit him down and explain that if he scores 30 points on 20 shots, fine. But if it's going to take you 30 to get 30, he's hurting the team.

Another 13 missed FT for the Nuggets. There are going to be so many woulda, shoulda, coulda's after this series for them. If they make the right call in game one, if Afflalo is healthy for the entire series, if they hit even 4 more FT a game, if, if, if, if and it will be a loss. On the scoreboard this series is essentially over, but the Nuggets SHOULD at least be 2-2 now. (SHOULD meaning a few little things here or there)

The Thunder deserve to win and will win this series. And I'll be cheering for them the rest of the way. I just wish Westbrook weren't acting like such an ass in getting there.

[whomario]

nice bounce back win for the Mavs. No magic for Roy this time and Tyson Chandler decided to show up with 14/20 with 13 offensive boards.

Peja has just been solid, great pick up, happy for him that he gets to contribute again.

[Warhammer]

So Memphis is about to eliminate the Spurs? What are the chances of the Spurs deciding to go into full rebuild mode after this debacle.

I think they would be better off if they did. They looked old last night. Plus, outside of their big three, I don't think they are all that old, which is cause for concern.

What impressed me about the Grizzlies last night was the Spurs kept it close until the 3rd. Typically, the Griz will get out to a lead and let the more experienced team chip away at it, similar to games 1 and 3. Last night the Griz upped the defense and extended their lead.

[whomario]

some interesting (albeit in limited sample size) stats showing the impact Joel Anthony and Jason Collins have : StatsCube: The No-Stats Playoff MVPs « NBA.com | Hang Time Blog (http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/04/26/statscube-the-no-stats-playoff-mvps/)

In 72 minutes Collins played so far the Magic post an offensive rating of 76.5 for 66 Points per 48, while in 120 minutes he´s on the bench they post a 108 for 100 points per 48 (which is actually respectable), they get only 19 FTA (per 48 minutes, compared to 35 with him on the bench), 20 TOs instead of 10.

Howard scores only 17 per 36 (31 when Collins sits). All those numbers were similar in the regular season meetings while last year Collins never played and the Hawks got owned by the Magic (1-7, multiple blowouts)


Bill Simmons with a lengthy take on the Kings/Maloof situation : Bill Simmons: Breaking down the NBA's small-market woes with a little help from the Maloofs - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/110425&sportCat=nba)

[Galaril]

Ok so two things I took from the Indy-bulls series

Noah is a punk ass and hope somebody shuts him up and the Bulls bench shooting three pointers in the last ten second sup 25 ...stay classy.

[Neuqua]

I admit I find it funny when a fan of a team with Rajon Rondo as their starting PG calls another player a punk ass.

Noah did exactly what he's on the floor to do. Rebound, block shots, and get in the heads of other players. This isn't something new, he's been doing this since college.

[MikeVic]

Ok so two things I took from the Indy-bulls series

Noah is a punk ass and hope somebody shuts him up and the Bulls bench shooting three pointers in the last ten second sup 25 ...stay classy.

I think you need to visit the MLB thread. These are professionals. Keep on playing man.

[MrBug708]

Wow Kobe

[Neon_Chaos]

Kobe is dialing back the clock. I haven't seen him throw down these many dunks in a long time.

[RainMaker]

Ok so two things I took from the Indy-bulls series

Noah is a punk ass and hope somebody shuts him up and the Bulls bench shooting three pointers in the last ten second sup 25 ...stay classy.
Yes, the Bulls are the team that has had multiple flagrant fouls called on them and taken shots at players heads throughout the series.

Pacers played like bullies all series long. Fouled hard, took cheap shots. Finally someone stepped up and fought back and they ran crying to their Mom.

[MrBug708]

So it's ok to do the little things to get into the other teams head, except when it's against the Bulls?

Ok

[RainMaker]

So it's ok to do the little things to get into the other teams head, except when it's against the Bulls?

Ok
You have it backwards. I'm not the one complaining, just finding it funny that the Pacers of all teams are the ones upset about it. Their playoff strategy was to foul hard, take cheap shots, get in players heads. Their coach has even come out and said as much. Noah punked them and they cried.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[SirFozzie]

The funny thing is that Neuq was badmouthing Rondo on twitter, and I told him that any team with Noah has no room to bitch about it. He was like "Noah's not a dirty player, I don't know anyone who considers him dirty.."

Then this happened.

And that's a sad sad way to go out by San Antonio. a Toe is on the line, a three pointer becomes a two, and the Spurs will lose by an inch.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT FUCK DAMN!

[stevew]

Memphis fail. Foul you fucking morons

[Noop]

So Miami puts away Philly with a strong performance from D.Wade and Mario Chalmers. I look forward to the Miami vs. Boston Series hopefully LeBron comes to play and doesn't quit on us.

[Noop]

This is what I had for San Antonio before they won by some miracle.

San Antonio has to go ahead and start their rebuilding project. They were the number 1 seed all year and only managed to win 1 game in the playoffs. I think its time for them to start the youth movement and hopefully get back in 3-4 years. As I see it the lottery (David Stern) has always been kind to them so it is likely they may win again.

Glad I didn't post that before the game was over.

[TroyF]

Durant with a sensational close to the game, but it was amazing how the Nuggets thoroughly outplayed them from the beginning to the end. 42-21 on FT. Durant and Westbrook combine for more FTA than the entire Nuggets roster, despite the fact Denver was attacking the basket all night long and those two were firing up jumper after jumper.

Pathetic.

[MikeVic]

Durant with a sensational close to the game, but it was amazing how the Nuggets thoroughly outplayed them from the beginning to the end. 42-21 on FT. Durant and Westbrook combine for more FTA than the entire Nuggets roster, despite the fact Denver was attacking the basket all night long and those two were firing up jumper after jumper.

Pathetic.

Just stop watching NBA basketball Troy. I don't know whether you're trolling now or still harping on the same point legitimately.

[TroyF]

Just stop watching NBA basketball Troy. I don't know whether you're trolling now or still harping on the same point legitimately.


Think what you want to think. Seriously. You think I'm a troll, ignore the post. You have the option.

I say what I say based on what I watch. Somehow the three refs watching the game thought OKC deserved to go to the FT line 42 times tonight. I don't agree. At all. If you do agree, more power to you. (I'm sure the OKC fans will say I'm an idiot and I'm good with that)

[Cuckoo]

Nuggets played about the best game they could play, and OKC still won. Legitimately. Congrats to Denver on a great, hard-fought series. That's a team that never quit, despite plenty of reason to do so, and is very talented and deep.

Excited to see what the Thunder can do against the Spurs or Grizzlies.

[Arles]

I think the Thunder were better, but a 42-21 difference when the Nuggets had more paint scoring seems dubious. Same with Memphis' 21 to 9 fouls called discrepancy down the stretch in the SA game.

NBA referees play such a major role in deciding these games and that's what frustrates a lot of fans. In no other sport do referees consistently make the impact they do in the NBA. You can count on one hand the games a year seriously impacted by refs in football and few ever in the postseason. Outside of a couple questionable strike calls, same goes for baseball. In hockey, refs almost go out of their way to even power plays (esp in the playoffs).

Yet, just tonight, the three home teams (all very close games) combined to shoot 100 free throws and commit 49 fouls. The visiting teams combined to shoot 60 free throws and commit 75 fouls. And what's crazy is that the Heat were just +8 on free throws and -5 on fouls. SA+OKC were +32 on FTAs and -21 on fouls called against.

Just look at the Spurs series to see this. In 3 home games, SA is +38 for FTAs (one without Manu). In 2 road games, SA is -4 (both with Manu). I guess the Spurs just significantly go to the basket better when they're at home and forget how to do so on the road. :rolleyes:

[whomario]

does anybody know of a site that does extended stats/boxscores for the playoffs ? I love hoopdata.com, but aparently they don´t do their work in the postseason.

One key for the Thunder also was their 16 offensive rebounds tonight (just 4 for the Nuggets), for the series also Durant´s ability to not turn the ball over. I was very surprised how seldomly the Nuggets try to trap him given that that has been one of his few weaknesses his first couple of years. He had just 7 TOs in 5 games.

Also, how about Ibaka struggling mightily on offense (1 point, 5 TOs) but blocking 9 shots ? So fun to watch him on defense.

[RainMaker]

I didn't watch the game, but I don't know how anyone can deny that there are major issues with officiating and preferential treatment. Lebron has now played 77 straight minutes without a defensive foul. Rather remarkable for the playoffs when you're one of the most aggressive perimeter defenders in the league. Doesn't quite compare to the 240 minute stretch he had a couple years ago.

The league average is 1 foul for 11 minutes.

[Arles]

One key for the Thunder also was their 16 offensive rebounds tonight (just 4 for the Nuggets)
The Thunder shot 36% and made just 6/24 3s (compared to the Nuggets shooting 46% and 44% from 3). Pretty amazing that you hit the boards hard enough to get 16 off rebounds, miss that many shots and are playing catchup most of the night, yet you still get 45% fewer fouls called.

Here's the most amazing line of the night to me. K-Mart and Nene were constantly getting to the rim and shot 10-23 from the field. Yet, the 2 combined to get 3 total free throw attempts. Westbrook and Harden were jacking jumpers all game to the tone of 5-22 shooting. Yet, they combined to get 18 free throws.

I'm just glad I don't really root for a team in the NBA anymore. I enjoy the basketball and will casually watch the playoffs, but if I was vested in a team I'd go crazy given how slanted the officials can be (esp towards home teams and favorites). Imagine being a fan of the New Orleans Saints and you are going on the road to face the Bears in the wild card round. Going into the game, you pretty much know that you will have 10-15 more penalties called than the Bears, plus the opposing home crowd to deal with. Winning that game would be almost impossible. Yet, that's a normal occurrence in the NBA playoffs.

[Warhammer]

I think the Thunder were better, but a 42-21 difference when the Nuggets had more paint scoring seems dubious. Same with Memphis' 21 to 9 fouls called discrepancy down the stretch in the SA game.

NBA referees play such a major role in deciding these games and that's what frustrates a lot of fans. In no other sport do referees consistently make the impact they do in the NBA. You can count on one hand the games a year seriously impacted by refs in football and few ever in the postseason. Outside of a couple questionable strike calls, same goes for baseball. In hockey, refs almost go out of their way to even power plays (esp in the playoffs).

Yet, just tonight, the three home teams (all very close games) combined to shoot 100 free throws and commit 49 fouls. The visiting teams combined to shoot 60 free throws and commit 75 fouls. And what's crazy is that the Heat were just +8 on free throws and -5 on fouls. SA+OKC were +32 on FTAs and -21 on fouls called against.

Just look at the Spurs series to see this. In 3 home games, SA is +38 for FTAs (one without Manu). In 2 road games, SA is -4 (both with Manu). I guess the Spurs just significantly go to the basket better when they're at home and forget how to do so on the road. :rolleyes:

There is a lot to this. I had drifted away from the NBA during the Jordan years for precisely this reason. Plus, the other gripe I have is that if a foul is called for X action two minutes into a game, it should be called with :30 seconds left in the game as well. This year, the officiating seemed better and I watched more NBA regular season ball than I had in years.

I watched the game Monday night between SA and Mem and was amazed at the officiating. It was a non-issue. Last night you wondered what was game they were officiating because it certainly wasn't the one I was watching. Both teams played hard and rough, yet Memphis got called for 12 more fouls down the stretch in a game they were leading at that point?

Heck, I'm a Laker fan and having the game tainted by the officials makes me sick. I was super fired up after Monday night, now I am not so sure. I can see the city getting fed up with the league after crap like this. We're not going to be one of the major markets, but we can certainly support the team. But Memphis is not a city to support a team they don't think can or will win something (that's why the support died for the later Pau led teams, everyone felt those teams had no heart outside of Battier).

[whomario]

as for the FT advantage for OKC, one should also point out that Ibaka alone had 9 blocks and the Thunder as a team had 14 and if you review them i think you´ll be hard stretched to find many that were debatable. A couple were on jump shots, but that´s still 9 or 10 attempts inside that you can take out of the equation. Just because a team goes inside it doesn´t mean they get fouled so or so often.

the one bad thing about the Grizz-Spurs ending was that this Ginobili shot wasn´t a 3 and sent it into overtime. What a ridiculous shot, holy shit ...

Joel Anthony finishes the series with a +72 in plus/minus in a series with 4 tight games.

[Cuckoo]

as for the FT advantage for OKC, one should also point out that Ibaka alone had 9 blocks and the Thunder as a team had 14 and if you review them i think you´ll be hard stretched to find many that were debatable. A couple were on jump shots, but that´s still 9 or 10 attempts inside that you can take out of the equation. Just because a team goes inside it doesn´t mean they get fouled so or so often.

Agreed. Look, I don't disagree with most of the above comments about NBA officiating, but last night's Thunder game, or even the series, is not a good example.

If I remember correctly, last night was the first time that OKC had an advantage in fouls called this series. Denver has had the advantage in every other game. And though the Thunder shot a ton more free throws, the foul advantage was something like 25-19, not all that crazy. Goal tending in game 1? Terrible call. Not calling Nene for a foul in game 4 when he throws Perkins down? Bad call, based on reputation. But I'd be surprised if someone can come up with many examples of fouls that should have been on OKC last night.

[whomario]

also, Zach Randolph was brilliant again yesterday, what a career-turnaround he´s had theese last 2 seasons.

[gstelmack]

also, Zach Randolph was brilliant again yesterday, what a career-turnaround he´s had theese last 2 seasons.

Not you, too. If the announcers in NBA 2k11 tell me this one more time, I'm going to strangle something...

(I'm a SG drafted by the Grizzlies, and at least once a game I get to hear about the fights he got into in Portland and how he's really shaped up since heading to Memphis...)

[whomario]

:D I´ll try my best not to go there again ;)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Not you, too. If the announcers in NBA 2k11 tell me this one more time, I'm going to strangle something...

(I'm a SG drafted by the Grizzlies, and at least once a game I get to hear about the fights he got into in Portland and how he's really shaped up since heading to Memphis...)
I'm playing as the Grizzlies in association mode, and I know exactly what you mean. Gets tiring hearing Clark Kellogg say that Zach Randolph has "kept his name out of the papers for the wrong reasons." Fortunately (I guess), Randolph broke his wrist in my game and has missed several games. Unfortunately, Rudy Gay and Marc Gasol did the same thing, so my entire frontcourt is shot. At least I don't have to listen to the announcers talk every game about Marc Gasol getting traded for his brother.

Not to get too off the thread topic, but I do wish they had something in NBA 2K11 to keep us from hearing those comments every single game. I could live with hearing them once every three or four games, but not every game. Oh well.

Pretend I said something about free throws here, so I'm on topic about something.

[RainMaker]

You guys should try playing My Player with Memphis. Not only do you get the same things, but you get to watch O.J. Mayo take 30 shitty shots a game and refuse to ever pass the ball.

[Groundhog]

Yup, I was drafted by the Grizzlies too, and it was the O.J. Mayo show, and Randolph never passes the ball once he gets it either.

I think the best solution would be that for the team you are controlling, you don't hear the colour commentary about your guys at all during the season, if they can't limit it to every few games. I don't mind hearing it about the teams I play, but not my frigging players every game.

Whoops, forgot this wasn't the NBA 2K11 thread... :D

[Neuqua]

The funny thing is that Neuq was badmouthing Rondo on twitter, and I told him that any team with Noah has no room to bitch about it. He was like "Noah's not a dirty player, I don't know anyone who considers him dirty.."

Then this happened.


What happened? Nothing Noah did was unique. Watch Kedrick Perkins on any given night. Joel Anthony was throwing elbows everytime a shot went up.

Those weren't dirty plays, they were just how big men play the game now. The only difference is, well, Noah is annoying about it. He mouths off and gets in other people's heads. Rodmanesque.

[Big Fo]

What an embarrassment.

[Groundhog]

Should be an interesting (and probably extended...) summer for Orlando and Dwight Howard.

[Big Fo]

Maybe the owners will try to force some kind of franchise player rule on the union.