Trade Reviews

[muns]

So I have some extra time on my hands due to the amount of work I have done the past few weeks at the job, so im gonna start reviewing our first 16 years of trades.

Normally Id do it under the trade post, however the first few seasons that FOOL was open for business, we just had a single trade board where all trades were confirmed.

So for those trades ill review them here. After I get past the first few seasons though, it will be done under each trades own thread that has already been started.

Im really looking forward to this, so i hope everyone enjoys

[Alan T]

So I have some extra time on my hands due to the amount of work I have done the past few weeks at the job, so im gonna start reviewing our first 16 years of trades.

Normally Id do it under the trade post, however the first few seasons that FOOL was open for business, we just had a single trade board where all trades were confirmed.

So for those trades ill review them here. After I get past the first few seasons though, it will be done under each trades own thread that has already been started.

Im really looking forward to this, so i hope everyone enjoys

excellent idea, I was considering doing something like this myself 5 years after a trade occured to see who was the true winner/loser of each deal. I look forward to seeing your stuff!

[Alan T]

Dola,

might be better to put your "article" or report in the main FOOL forum though instead of here so it has more visibility.

[ekcut]

I can't wait!

[muns]

I dont count the trades done before everyone started here :)


St. Louis trades:
SP Rob Roberts
SP Lawrence Green

Hartford Trades:
IF Bruce McDaniel
2B William Hawkins


Hartford

Sp- Rob Roberts- Currently sits at #25 on FOOLS all time wins list as a pitcher with 119 wins. Rob pitched 4 years for Hartford going 58-40 over that time frame with 591 strikeouts, an average WHIP of 1.23, threw 23 complete games with 2 shutouts, an average win % of.592 and an average ERA of 3.72and had a total VORP of 137.4. He was also selected to be an all star 2 out of those 4 years Spent in Hartford. Lawerence was let go after the 1967 season and pitched one more season in Baltimore and retried in 1969.

SP-Lawerence Green- Lawerence pitched one season for Hartford in 1964 and flopped. He then was cut and bounced around Brooklyns and Rio's farm systems until hanging it all up in 1969. His stat line for Hartford in 1964 was 6 wins 11 losses 5.45 era and a whip of 1.58.


St. Louis

INF- Bruce Mcdaniel- Bruce only spent 2 seasons in St.Louis however he did win a title with them in 1964 and made an all star appearance in 1965 before was let go to Boston in Free Agency. Bruce had an average average of (if that makes sense, just think about that for 2 seconds :)
.271 in 2 seasons and hit 31 homers, 132 RBI'S, had an average OPS of .776, slugging of .440, and OBP of .337. His total VORP was 38.7.

2B William Hawkins- William just like Mcdaniel only spent 2 seasons in St.Louis but was also part of the Championship run in 1964 and won the best Filder award for SS in 1965 before being let go in Free Acengy to Brooklyn. William had an average average of .258, OPS of .755, Slugging .379, and an OBP of .375. He hit 9 homers and 93 RBI'S. His total VORP was 31.7


Evaluation

I believe this was an even Swap.

Roberts numbers are totally better and he spent more time in Hartford and had more all star appearances, however, You cant count out that both Hawkins and Mcdaniel won a title and each had an all star appearance or a gold Glove. That to me shows that they too had a major impact on thier St.Louis blub and were major factors in making the Championship run.

[muns]

Dola,

might be better to put your "article" or report in the main FOOL forum though instead of here so it has more visibility.

Sorry didnt see this before I started. DC if you want to put this on the main forum thats fine, however once I start to get past the first few years, all the trades are done individually and those shouldnt move over to the main forum.

[muns]

Hartford Sends

CF- Jake Brewer
RF- Keane Hayden
CL- Chris Starkweather


St. Louis Sends

SP-Gabe Prado
CL- Mark Johnson


Hartford

SP-Gabe Prado We all know Gabe Prado so im not going to spend all the time and effort into this one. He currently sit #2 on Fools All time win list and would be number one if he wasnt turned into a MR this year (way to go chief) just kidding of course :) Prado Spent 3 season in Hartford befor being dealt away to Seattle. In those 3 years Prado was an allstar once and also won the pitcher of the year award in 1966. He went 50-23 with an average ERA of 3.34, WHIP of 1.10 and a total of 656 K'S. His total VORP was 132.4

CL-Mark Johnson- Mark Spent 2 seasons in Hartford before being let go in Free Agency to Long Beach. Marks stats in those 2 seaons were 10-17 with 33 saves. His average ERA was 3.07 and his average WHIP was 1.31. His total VORP was 29.6.


St. Louis

CF- Jake Brewer Jake spent one year with St.louis earning him an all star appearance before he was let go in Free Agency and signed with St.Petersburg. He had an average of .293, OPS of .822, SLG of .456 and OBP of .366. He also hit 11 homers had 52 RBI'S and stole 53 bases. His total VORP was 36.6

RF- Keane Hayden Keane nver made it to the Bigs and since has been removed from the games Database, so he doenst eat up room :)

CL- Chris Starkweather Chris spent 2 years in AAA ball with St. Louis before signing a FA contract with Baltimore. Chris didnt look like he was on track to ever be a Big Legue Pitcher as Baltimore used him that season and he got tourched for a 4.72 ERA. He was sent back down the follwing season to AAA and then Released. Atlanta picked him up and gave him a shot and he responded with an up and down 6 years there.


Evaluation

Hartford won hands down in this deal before being stupid himself and trading Prado. ;)
Brewer was a nice pick up, however Prado's numbers are just too much to argue with.

[Young Drachma]

What a moron that DC is. Seriously.

;)

[Alan T]

Seriously!

[ekcut]

What a moron that DC is. Seriously.

;)

Ya'll make it sound like this is a breaking news story or something...

[muns]

Boston Sends:
CF Greg Reid

Hartford Sends:
MR Bo Miller


Boston

MR- Bo Miller- Bo spent 1 season in Boston before getting picked in the Expansion draft by the Seattle Supersonics. In 1965 Bo sucked it up for Boston (which was why he was let go in the expansion draft) as he had an ERA of 4.88 with 4 wins 5 losses and 2 saves. His Whip was a terrible 1.88 and opposing hitters smiled every time they got in the box as they hit .292 off of him. His total Vorp was .2
As a side note Bo Also failed in Seattle the following year and was then released.

Hartford

CF-Greg Reid- Greg Reid also was equally as sucky. Reid Spent one season in Hartford hitting a god awful .230 with 9 homers and 39 RBI'S. He too was then Selected in the 1965 Expansion draft with good reason, and then the funny part is, got dealt by the expansion St. Petersburg Pelicans the following year. Do you know how bad you have to be to get dealt by an expansion team? His Vorp was 3.3 the year he played for hartford.

Evaluation

I guess by the VORP Hartford wins on this one by 3.1 points, however both these guys suck, and im mad I spent time on this crappy ass trade.

[Alan T]

im mad I spent time on this crappy ass trade.

:)

[muns]

What a moron that DC is. Seriously.

;)

you were being nice and breaking up your team. Lets me honest here..... At the time I dont think anyone knew that, and I was just the guy that came along asking first I think.... I also think I was involved in like the frist 6 or so trades in fool history. I was a trading fein back then as well.

HA HA back then I just caught myself. Wasnt that like 2 months ago??? ;)

[muns]

Hartford sent
LF Xavier Gonzalez

Colorado sent
LF John Tippett


Hartford

LF John Tippett- John spent 3 seasons in Hartford playing in a part time role and right after his contract was up retired. In those 3 years John hit .278 had 9 homers and 49 RBI'S. He also ended up stealing 57 bases and tallying a VORP of 6.4

Colorado


LF Xavier Gonzalez- Xavier never made it to the big leagues and is no longer in the database due to space.


Evaluation

Off numbers Hartford wins, but at the time (and i remember) Chief had a crowded OF and dumped Tippett for a spect that just didnt pan out.

[muns]

Hartford sent

3B-Felipe Lopez
SS- Brandon Caroll


Valdosta sent
RF-Hector Santos



Hartford

Hector Santos- never made it to the bigs and is no longer in the games database.



Valdosta

3B-Felipe Lopez- Felipe spent 2 seasons on Valdosta's roster in a sub role, getting a grand total of 40 at bats. Felipe hit .200 and had 1 RBI. Felipe was released in 1969 and then retired.


SS- Brandon Caroll- Brandon spent 1 season on Valdosta's roster as their starting SS. Brandon hit .239 had 6 homers and 69 RBI'S. In 1967 he was sent down to AAA where he spent 2 years before being released and then he too also retired.


Evaluation

Off of numbers Valdosta won this deal. He had Caroll start and be productive for him, while my guy never made the bigs.....

[Alan T]

I am not sure that a .239 batting average is what I would call productive :)

[Young Drachma]

Ya'll make it sound like this is a breaking news story or something...

Don't make me change your uniforms to pink.

[Young Drachma]

I am not sure that a .239 batting average is what I would call productive :)

In the CL? That's MVP level. :p

[Alan T]

In the CL? That's MVP level. :p


I was going to make some witty reply but I couldn't think of anything.

[muns]

This is prob the first trade that people might have an opinion on and should be able to recognize a few names.

Hartford Sent

LF-Ramiro Mateo
RF- Clarence Gilliam
3B- Bob Chase

Texas Sends

3B-Warren Lewis
SS-Hector Suarez

Hartford

3B-Warren Lewis Warren spent 5 seasons in Hartford where he was a 2time all star and won the Batting Crown in his first season there which was in 1966. Over his first stint with Hartford his career average average was .321, his OBP was .412, his OPS was .855 and his SLG was .442. He hit 28 bombs and had 302 RBI'S. His total VORP was 218.5. In 1971 he was Traded to Rio Grande where he spent 3 seasons before coming back to Hartford for 2 more though Free Agency. He is currently on the market as a FA at this point in time.

SS-Hector Suarez Hector spent 4 seasons in Hartford where he won a gold Glove and also picked up an all star appearance. His career average average was .257 his OBP .323 was his OPS was .747 and his SLG was .422. He hit 48 homers and had 254 RBI'S. His total VORP was 75.2 In 1970 his contract was not picked up and he then retired from baseball.


Texas


LF-Ramiro Mateo Mateo spent 5 season in Texas before being let go in 1971 and retiring. His carrer stats in Texas were a .254 average his OBP was .298 his OPS was .754 and his SLG was .456. He hit 91 homers with 326 RBI'S. he started 4 out of his 5 years there and was a cog in the middle of the lineup. His best year was 1968 where he hit 281 with 25 bombs and 90 RBI'S. His total VORP was 13.


RF- Clarence Gilliam Gilliam spent the next 5 seasons also in Texas where he was an all star for one season and he also won a Gold Glove in RF. He was then Let go and signed a HUGE FA contract with Colorado and is currently on the Market now as a Free agent. In his 5 seasons with Texas his average average was .292 his OBP was .389 his OPS was .893 and his SLG was .504. He hit 113 homers had 359 RBI'S, and his total VORP was 183.5.


3B- Bob Chase Bob played 17 games for Texas that year and had 1 hit in 13 at bats. Bob was released after the season and then retired.


Evaluation

Im calling this one a win for hartford but not by much and im not totally convinced.

Even though Warren's and Suarez VORP Trounce on Gilliams and Mateo's, Thier Power numbers were less than the Texas guys and they werent in the middle of the Hartford order. They werent even the main guys which means they didnt mean as much to the team as the guys did from Texas.

Im interested in hearing what the thoughts were about this one.

[kaosfere]

In the CL? That's MVP level. :p

:cry:

[Alan T]

Ok, since I can't think of anything witty to respond to DC with.. I'll just babble stats.... Lowest non-pitcher CL MVP in FOOL history hit .306

In the RL, we've seen three non-pitcher MVPs that hit below .300 with Jerry Matthews (.297), Andy Nolan (.274) and Teruo Miyahara (.276)

:) :)

[ekcut]

Ok, since I can't think of anything witty to respond to DC with.. I'll just babble stats.... Lowest non-pitcher CL MVP in FOOL history hit .306

In the RL, we've seen three non-pitcher MVPs that hit below .300 with Jerry Matthews (.297), Andy Nolan (.274) and Teruo Miyahara (.276)

:) :)

Plus the competition is WAY tougher in the CL so they are constantly battling against better pitchers!! :)

[Young Drachma]

Ok, since I can't think of anything witty to respond to DC with.. I'll just babble stats.... Lowest non-pitcher CL MVP in FOOL history hit .306

In the RL, we've seen three non-pitcher MVPs that hit below .300 with Jerry Matthews (.297), Andy Nolan (.274) and Teruo Miyahara (.276)

:) :)

Because in the RL, we recognize the "whole player." We don't discriminate and we treat our pitchers better. Ask muns and his rotation of All-Stars.

[muns]

St. Petersburg traded

3B Nick Paul
1B Ben Gibbs
2B Marvin Shields
SP Matt Ladner
SP Cullen Mitchell
CF Greg Reid

Chicago traded

SP Bob Halpin
SS Hector Martinez


St. Petersburg

SP-Bob Halpin- Bob currently sits 9th all time in wins in FOOL History however, His 3 years spent in St. Petersburgh where he amassed 40 wins and 41 losses with an average ERA of 3.85 is a time period that he wasnt at his best yet. Its not until 1969 when he signs a contract with Compton where he starts to become the man that he currently is. (Back to his time in St.Pete) Bob had 565 K's and an average WHIP of 1.32 to go along with his 5 complete games and 1 shutout. His total VORP during this time period is 103.8.

SS Hector Martinez- Hector played 1 season for St.Pete and sure made the most of it. Martinez played in a sub role but ended up hitting .299 with 2 homers and 14 RBI. His contract was not renewed after the season and he quietly retired.


Chicago

3B Nick Paul- Nick came to Chicago and walked into a sub role playing both SS and 2nd base. Nick only played 1 year for Chicago but he hit .332 with an OBP of .331 OPS of .852. He also had 1 homer and 31 RBI'S for a total VORP of 16.4

1B Ben Gibbs- Ben also only played 1 season for Chicago. In his starting role he hit .254 had 22 homers and 81 RBI'S. His OBP was .377, OPS was .796 and SLG was .419. All in all not a shabby season for Chicago. His total VORP for that season was 19.2. Since then Ben played 3 seasons for Seattle before becoming a Jounreyman and becoming an all star with Valdosta in 1972.

2B Marvin Shields- Marvin played and started 3 seasons for Chicago and even won a Glod glove in 1966. However his seasons in Chicago were anything but great. He hit .248, had an OBP of .302 OPS of .694 and SLG of .391. He hit 37 homers with 130 RBI'S and his best season was in 1968 with a .257 average and 22 dingers. His total VORP was a -3.4. His contract was up in 1969 and he retired from baseball at that time.

SP Matt Ladner- Matt also played one seasn in Chicago and he also flopped it up. Matt went 10-16 with a 5.23 ERA. Betters hit .300 against him the entire season, Nuff said. Matt was released after the season and moved onto Baltimore where he did ok there in 23 innings. Retired from there.

SP Cullen Mitchell- Cullen like Matt played in Chicago for 1 season and again also sucked it up. Cullen went 10-13 with a 5.84 ERA and batters tore him up for a .292 average. He played 2 more years in AAA before being let go and retiring.

CF Greg Reid- Greg makes his second stop on this thread in this trade. And like the previous guys in this trade also didnt make much of an impact. Greg hit .248 with 6 dingers and 32 RBI'S. He then went down to AAA the next year and retired.


Evaluation

Im calling this one of the worst trades in FOOL history with St.Pete winning. Haplin didnt exactly rip it up but he at least contributed to the team. While the guys that came over to Chicago were prob better than what they had, you gotta think future as well, and only Shields stayed more than 1 season on the team. I could go on, but this one was just horrible and im still baffled on how this even looked like a good idea at the time. Hindsight is 20-20

[Young Drachma]

St. Petersburg is Compton, just FYI. For those who weren't around. Compton played its first season in St. Petersburg, but I moved them before the end of the Classic, purposely so their history would only show Compton. ;)

[muns]

Because in the RL, we recognize the "whole player." We don't discriminate and we treat our pitchers better. Ask muns and his rotation of All-Stars.

lol, im telling ya, cheap women and the quality of fish we got up here. You guys should start getting some imports to bring home with ya.....

Our one exception to the rule was Barrajas, and I heard on his way out that he was allergic to fish...... money sure wasnt the problem. I offered him 11.1 mil per season and he signed for what 8 and change......

[Alan T]

Ben Gibbs should have been better than he was. I think he was horribly misused by Chicago and Seattle when they had him. I didn't have to do anything special to make him an all star, I just had to use him the right way.

I say this deal would have been alot closer if Gibbs had been able to blossom like he should have for Chicago.

[Young Drachma]

Ben Gibbs should have been better than he was. I think he was horribly misused by Chicago and Seattle when they had him. I didn't have to do anything special to make him an all star, I just had to use him the right way.

I say this deal would have been alot closer if Gibbs had been able to blossom like he should have for Chicago.

+1

Alan and I agree. His career was wasted by terrible teams.

[muns]

St. Petersburg is Compton, just FYI. For those who weren't around. Compton played its first season in St. Petersburg, but I moved them before the end of the Classic, purposely so their history would only show Compton. ;)

lol well im not redoing that, but that little tid bit makes that trade THE WORST EVER!!!!!!

I honestly dont think we are ever gonna find a worse one than that thing......

[Alan T]

To go a step further, Gibbs was a better player with better ratings in 1965-1966. By the time he became an allstar in 1972, he was less of a player than he was 5 years earlier ratings-wise

[muns]

+1

Alan and I agree. His career was wasted by terrible teams.

He hit .282 the year he played for me, and I was using him part time due to trying to get playing time for youngsters. You guys are right though He prob shouldnt have been hitting against lefties

[muns]

St. Pete sent:
LF Phil Sexton

Boston sent
2B-Roberto Feliz
SP-Joe Parks
SP-Joseph Hall
2B-Bill Woods


St.Pete

2B-Roberto Feliz- Never played in the Bigs for St.Pete and was released and retired after the deal.

SP-Joe Parks- Joe Spent the next 4 seasons in minors ball before exploding onto the scene for Compton in 1970 with his best season ever (he went 15-9 with with a 3.97 ERA then). Parks for his Career has gone 84-80 with a WHIP of 1.28 and 1,110 K's. His total VORP is 119.8. Not a bad career and he is still going strong playing with Compton as he went 11-14 last season with a 4.03 ERA and a 1.17 WHIP.

SP-Joseph Hall- Joe spent the next 2 seasons in the Minors and never did play a game for the Brothers.

2B-Bill Woods- Bill spent 2 years in the minors before cracking the big leagues and then spent 5 seasons in Compton mostly playing as a part timer, but definately contributed. His average average was .298, his OBP was .332, his OPS was .840 and his SLG was .508. He hit 47 homers with 226 RBI'S. As a part timer this guy was a huge success. His total VORP was 59.8. I liked doing this guys stats. I wish I could get guys like this as Part timers on my team.


Boston

LF Phil Sexton Phil spent 3 very productive seasons in Boston before being signed as a Free Agent by Compton in 1968. In those 3 seasons his average average was .273, his OPB was .334, his OPS was .795 and SLG was .467. He hit 49 homers with 256 RBI'S. His total VORP was 60.6


Evaluation

While this may be close im calling this a win For St.Pete/Compton. Part timer Bill Woods just about has the same VORP as Sexton, but with the addition of SP Joe Parks in that deal, it simply has to favor St.Pete/Compton. While Sexton was a good player and very very consistant for those 3 years, IMO he wasnt better than the combo of Parks and Woods.

[kaosfere]

BTW, guys, I just wanted to say I really appreciate the effort you guys, muns and Alan both, are putting into these projects. It's very interesting in its own right, and really helps piece league history together for those of us who haven't been in it for as long. :)

[kaosfere]

dola, one interesting tidbit, Muns, might be if you keep a running "win/loss" trade tally for each manager, based on your reviews. That would be... cool for lightweight bragging rights or hanging your head in mock shame, at least.

[muns]

I got one more deal to do and then this year is done. It should be a fun one too, as its the 3 way deal that features notable guys Rick Inman, Dave Myers and Eugene Andrews.

I need to take a break as my eyes are starting to hurt a bit. Get some food in me, and then do my file and get back to work on this stuff.

[muns]

dola, one interesting tidbit, Muns, might be if you keep a running "win/loss" trade tally for each manager, based on your reviews. That would be... cool for lightweight bragging rights or hanging your head in mock shame, at least.

Excellent Idea. That would be neat to see actually. Will do. Thanks for the suggestion Kaos.

[Young Drachma]

I agree. I've been looking forward to this for a while, so I'm glad we have a trade forum where you can finally do it! Great work!!!

[Chief Rum]

Hartford sent
LF Xavier Gonzalez

Colorado sent
LF John Tippett


Hartford

LF John Tippett- John spent 3 seasons in Hartford playing in a part time role and right after his contract was up retired. In those 3 years John hit .278 had 9 homers and 49 RBI'S. He also ended up stealing 57 bases and tallying a VORP of 6.4

Colorado


LF Xavier Gonzalez- Xavier never made it to the big leagues and is no longer in the database due to space.


Evaluation

Off numbers Hartford wins, but at the time (and i remember) Chief had a crowded OF and dumped Tippett for a spect that just didnt pan out.

Yup, no room for Tippett. Well, actually, he probably would have started for me, but there was no reason to keep him, and I was weak in OF prospects, especially CF. Gonzalez was listed as a LF, but he was also a very good CF, speedy with good CON potential. Not much else and just a Single A level player. I think he stayed in my system for 5-6 years, so he was there for a while, but he never really panned out (obviously).

[Chief Rum]

This is prob the first trade that people might have an opinion on and should be able to recognize a few names.

Hartford Sent

LF-Ramiro Mateo
RF- Clarence Gilliam
3B- Bob Chase

Texas Sends

3B-Warren Lewis
SS-Hector Suarez

Hartford

3B-Warren Lewis Warren spent 5 seasons in Hartford where he was a 2time all star and won the Batting Crown in his first season there which was in 1966. Over his first stint with Hartford his career average average was .321, his OBP was .412, his OPS was .855 and his SLG was .442. He hit 28 bombs and had 302 RBI'S. His total VORP was 218.5. In 1971 he was Traded to Rio Grande where he spent 3 seasons before coming back to Hartford for 2 more though Free Agency. He is currently on the market as a FA at this point in time.

SS-Hector Suarez Hector spent 4 seasons in Hartford where he won a gold Glove and also picked up an all star appearance. His career average average was .257 his OBP .323 was his OPS was .747 and his SLG was .422. He hit 48 homers and had 254 RBI'S. His total VORP was 75.2 In 1970 his contract was not picked up and he then retired from baseball.


Texas


LF-Ramiro Mateo Mateo spent 5 season in Texas before being let go in 1971 and retiring. His carrer stats in Texas were a .254 average his OBP was .298 his OPS was .754 and his SLG was .456. He hit 91 homers with 326 RBI'S. he started 4 out of his 5 years there and was a cog in the middle of the lineup. His best year was 1968 where he hit 281 with 25 bombs and 90 RBI'S. His total VORP was 13.


RF- Clarence Gilliam Gilliam spent the next 5 seasons also in Texas where he was an all star for one season and he also won a Gold Glove in RF. He was then Let go and signed a HUGE FA contract with Colorado and is currently on the Market now as a Free agent. In his 5 seasons with Texas his average average was .292 his OBP was .389 his OPS was .893 and his SLG was .504. He hit 113 homers had 359 RBI'S, and his total VORP was 183.5.


3B- Bob Chase Bob played 17 games for Texas that year and had 1 hit in 13 at bats. Bob was released after the season and then retired.


Evaluation

Im calling this one a win for hartford but not by much and im not totally convinced.

Even though Warren's and Suarez VORP Trounce on Gilliams and Mateo's, Thier Power numbers were less than the Texas guys and they werent in the middle of the Hartford order. They werent even the main guys which means they didnt mean as much to the team as the guys did from Texas.

Im interested in hearing what the thoughts were about this one.

I can't comment much on the others, but I wanted to say that, while Gilliam was vastly overpaid for his one-sided batting success, he was still a key member of the Colorado lineup on the three straight RL champs, and he has a ring from the 1973 Classic.

He only hit 20 HRs once for me, and I signed him for power. Worst...signing...ever (but he wasn't unproductive, just not enough to warrant that deal).

[Chief Rum]

Ben Gibbs should have been better than he was. I think he was horribly misused by Chicago and Seattle when they had him. I didn't have to do anything special to make him an all star, I just had to use him the right way.

I say this deal would have been alot closer if Gibbs had been able to blossom like he should have for Chicago.

Agreed. Gibbs had much more talent than his numbers really show. He's still around, BTW, currently on Toronto's AAA team, although I don't know if he gets a chance to make the bigs this year.

Gibbs was one of my two inherited Ranchero stars (Clay Darby the other). I let Gibbs go to free up cap space by allowing him to be unprotected in the expansion draft. DC picked him up for St. Pete.

Incidentally, I also allowed Darby to be unprotected, and he went #1 overall to Seattle.

And I spent all that freed up money mostly on crap, proving I do do that, too (Not even mentioning Gilliam). I spent about $13-15 M per year on two guys who barely played for me after 1965. I also threw big money at young Alden Hendricks, which was probably the best decision among a bunch of poor ones. Hendricks didn't deserve the cash, but he did win 18 games in my first title year in 1966, and was a cog of Colorado's squad during the 60s.

[muns]

This is the biggest Trade that ive reviewed date. Im gonna get into this one as the names in this get me excited.

Since this was a 3 way its getting reviewed the same way it was posted. Im not gonna start it off by showing who gave up what first (like normal trades), you can clearly see in the () who got sent from where.


St. Petersburg gets:
Rick Inman (from Charleston)

Chicago gets:
Dave Myers (from Charleston)

Charleston gets:
SP Eugene Andrews (from St. Petersburg)
SP Julio Morales (from St. Petersburg)
LF Sam Palmer (from Chicago)


St. Pete

3B-Rick Inman- As everybody is well aware, Rick Inman is perhaps the most successful and most accomplished player in FOOL history. Inman has had the best season as a 3rd baseman (thanks Alan for the stat) and has been recognized by DC as they guy he regrets the most by trading him after only playing one season in Compton. Inmans stats in 1966 are typical Inman as he did make the all star team. He hit .311, with an OPB of .376, OPS of .941 and SLG of .552. All damn good numbers. He also hit 24 homers but was a little light on the RBI total which was 86 that year (his 5th lowest toal ever). His VORP was a robust 58.8 and boy if he would have stayed in Compton this might have been one of the biggest steals in FOOL history. Alan might get that nod though when I review the next Inman Trade ;)

Chicago

CF-Dave Myers Myers spent 3 seasons in Chicago where he put up some nice numbers of his own. He won 2 Gold Gloves in CF and also had an all star appearance. His average average in those 3 seasons was .244 with an OBP of .322, OPS of .798 and SLG of .475. He hit 82 bombs with 294 RBI'S. Almost averaging 100 RBI'S over 3 seasons isnt anything to shake a stick at. His total VORP was 51.5. Myers was never a guy who hit for average as he hit .254 for his career but he would have been mighty scary if he could have been. In 1969 he signed a FA contract with Ann Arbor where he spent the next 6 seasons before being let go and signing with texas for the next 2. Currently he is on the FA market and is looking to get signed to a 1 year 310,000 deal.


Charleston

SP Eugene Andrews- Andrews is one of those guys that never lived up to his potential as he came from the Haunted St.Louis Terriers Farm system. When you had a SP come out of that farm you could just pencil him in for a very good chance to make it to the Hall. Andrews sadly was the exception to this rule. Eugene only spent 2 seasons in Charleston where he went 19-31 with 222K'S and a average ERA of 4.94 and a WHIP of 1.45. His contract wasnt renewed and he spent his last season in the Bigs with Atlanta in 1968 where his numbers were just as bad. His total VORP was 11.1

SP-Julio Morales- Morales only spent 1 season in Charleston and boy was it a bad one. He went 3-14 with a 5.54 ERA, 112 K'S with a WHIP of 1.58. He was quickly released in the offseason and never played ball again. His total VORP was -6.0

LF-Sam Palmer- Sam played 1 season with Charleston and only appeared in 22 games. He hit .273 and had 2 RBI'S on the season. He was released after the season and picked up by Atlanta where he spent the last 2 years of his carrer playing on the MLB team for one of those years, before he retired in 1970. His total VORP was -6.2


Evaluation

Clearly Charleston got thier asses kicked in this deal and gave up too much to basically get screwed as Andrews never projected like everyone predicted. I cant wait to see if FOOL is littered with guys like this as I continue to go through all the deals.

So it boils down to who was more succesful??? Rick Inman and his one season or Dave Myers and his three. To me as much as a beast Inman was for his one season, its an easy selection. The win goes to Chicago as they got a player that was a major contribuiter to his lineup and basically produced a 20 homer 100 RBI season for three consecutive years who also won 2 Gold Gloves and made an all star team.

[muns]

Its only fitting that this gets reviewed next, as I couldnt figure out the draft history on another deal.

Compton traded:

3B Rick Inman
RF Lawrence Wyatt (AAA)

to Valdosta in exchange for:

C Sam Harmon


Compton

C-Sam Harmon- What the first thing that comes to mind when you think of Sam "the King" Harmon? For me its a guy that never lived up to his potential. He has had a nice career dont get me wrong, but we were expecting some major things from Sam and he just didnt deliver. Sam played two seasons for Compton earning his only all star selection and a Gold glove before being sent in a trade to Baltimore. Sams average average was .253, OPB was.315, OPS was .745 and SLG was .439. Actually looks pretty respectable to me. He hit 43 homers and had 156 RBI'S. His total VORP was 21.5. The problem is Sam never Had another 1967 season ever again, and has hit .245, OPB of .303, OPS of .721 and SLG of .418 for his Career.


Valdosta

Alan has to be smiling as he read this.

3b-Rick Inman- All Inman ever did after being traded was make 9 all star teams, garnner 3 MVP awards along the way picking up 2 Gold Gloves and has how many rings???? He spent the next 10 seasons In Valdosta basically rewriting the history books and is still going. He is a career .309 hitter has 2,385 hits, 208 home runs with 1,142 RBI'S. His total VORP was 644.9

RF Lawrence Wyatt- Lawerence spent the next 6 seasons playing for the Peanuts also earning an all star selection and at least a ring. His average average is .281 with an OBP of .335 an OPS of .842 and SLG of .507. He hit 73 homers with 297 RBI'S. His total VORP was 136.5. Another very solid player.


Evaluation

Easy win for Valdosta as even without Inman they would have won straight up Wyatt for Harmon. Tough Pill to swallow letting one of the best players to ever play the game go with not much to show for it with this deal.

DC did eventually turn Harmon into a deal for SP Tom Williams who is one of the best pitchers to ever Pitch in FOOL, but that deal will be discussed later.

[muns]

Rio Grande sends: SS Scott Evan

Colorado sends: SP Billy Martin


Rio Grande

SP-Billy Martin- Billy pitched for 4 seasons for RIO with moderate success. His totals include a 42-40 record with a 4.92 ERA 509 K'S and a 1.43WHIP. His total VORP during that time frame was 4.2. He spent the last season in baseball in 1971 on RIO'S AAA team and was released and retired from baeball after that year.


Colorado

SS-Scott Evans- Scott Played in Colorado for 2 seasons one in a starting role, and one as a sub. In 1967 he put up below average numbers starting with a .240 average, .300 OBP, .655 OPS and .364 SLG. He hit 11 bombs and had 40 RBI'S. The following season he only had 63 at bats and hit .206. His total VORP for the 2 seasons was a -10.8
Following those 2 years in Colorado Evans played ball for the next 7 seasons 4at the big league level and had average success in Toronto from 1971-1973.


Evaluation

Its close but Im going with Rio in this one. Martin had a positive VORP and he did contribute to RIO in a positive way. In 1969 Martin had a VORP of 14.8 and he did have over a .500 record when he took the mound.

[muns]

In the most controversial deal in FOOL history

Hartford Sent

SP-Guillermo Flores
SP-Gabriel Molina
SP-Stand Martin
MR-Javier Vallerjo
C-Bernado Carillo
SS- Louis Lopez
1b-Jesse Ray
2nd- Jim Rausch
SS-Paul Herbert
LF- Jim Williams
CF-Russell Hicks
RF-Rafel Mendoza
1st round draft pick


Chicago Sent

C-Standford Jones
$100,000


Hartford

C-Stanford Jones- Stanford played in Hartford for 4 seasons being selected as an all star once and won 2 gold gloves at the Catcher spot along the way. His average average was .278 with an OBP of .377, an OPS of .817 and SLG of .439. He hit 52 homers with 265 RBI'S. His total VORP over the 4 seasons was 104.8. He was released in a cap saving move and has since played another 6 successful seasons and when in terms of talking about Cathers over the history of FOOL, should go down as one of the all time greats. He has a total of 5 all star selections and 4 Gold Gloves.


Chicago

SP-Guillermo Flores- Flores pitched for Chicago for 3 seasons getting bombed in all 3 of them before getting released. His record was a bismal 16-39and 1 save with an ERA of 6.16 and a WHIP of 1.78. His total VORP was an HORRID -53.8. Dont have much more else to say about him.

SP-Gabriel Molina- Gabriel never made the Chicago roster, and therefore there isnt a record of him being in the game.

SP-Stan Martin- Stan also Pitched for Chicago for 3 seasons getting bombed like his partner Flores. He went 20-51 with a 5.48 ERA and a 1.59 WHIP. He also had 464 K'S. His total VORP during this time frame was a -21.8. He was released after his 3 years in Chicago played one more year in Quad Cities AAA club and then retired.

MR-Javier Vallerjo- Javier was better over his 3 seasons in Chicago as he bounced around from a MR to a Starter in 3 years. he went 14-28 with 24 saves. His averae ERA was 4.57 and his WHIP was 1.54. He also tallied up 267K'S. His total VORP over the 3 year frame was 21.1. He was released after the 1969 season and spent 1 more year on the Texas squad where he did ok.

C-Bernado Carillo- Bernado started for Chicago for 3 seaons and wasnt half bad. His average average was .267, with an OBP of .336 with an OPS of .713 and a SLG of .377. He hit 26 bombs and 154 RBI'S. The AI released him after the season and Bernado went on to play 5 more years with Quad City and Rio Grande. His total VORP over those 3 years was 13.6.

SS- Louis Lopez Lopez played one season with Chicago and hit .210 with and OBP of .241 and OPS of .677 and SLG of .463. He hit 19 bombs and had 75 RBI'S. His VORP was a -5.1. He retired after the season.

1b-Jesse Ray- Jesse is an interesting Case. He had a wonderful 3 seasons in Chicago and it was a shame the AI decided not to keep him. In his 3 seasons Jesse was an all star once and had 2 Gold gloves. His average average was .288, with an OBP of .342, and OPS of .805, and SLG of .462. He hit 62 homers and had 210 RBI'S. His total VORP was 65.5.

2nd- Jim Rausch- Jim never made the Chicago squad and there isnt any record of him in the game.

SS-Paul Herbert- Paul also like most of the guys in this deal only spent 3 years in Chicago. He spent 2 years in the starting SS role than transitioned into the back up spot. His average average was .231 OPB of .292, and OPS of .642 and SLG of .349. He hit 27 dingers with 121 RBI'S. His VORP over that time was a -10.

LF- Jim Williams- Jim never made Chicago's roster and therefore isnt in the games database.

CF-Russell Hicks- Hicks like Williams never made the roster.

RF-Rafel Mendoza- Like the previous 2 above Rafel never made the roster.

I cant figure out who the draft pick was so im just gonna ignore it.


Evaluation

Even with 5 guys not making Chicago's roster and not being able to find the 1st round draft pick im calling this an even trade.

1b-Jesse Ray just about equalled or bettered C-Stanford Jones output over his 3 years in Chicago, (they both made an all star game and both won 2 gold gloves). Ray hit more homers, and if you subtract Stanfords last year in Hartford the RBI'S are just about equal. On top of that Chicago had 6 other guys start and play for them.

Im not gonna talley this one up on the Talley sheet, until I hear enough thoughts or opinions on this one, again as this was the most controversial deal in FOOL history.

But I would like to hear thoughts on who people think won this one.

[Chief Rum]

Rio Grande sends: SS Scott Evan

Colorado sends: SP Billy Martin


Rio Grande

SP-Billy Martin- Billy pitched for 4 seasons for RIO with moderate success. His totals include a 42-40 record with a 4.92 ERA 509 K'S and a 1.43WHIP. His total VORP during that time frame was 4.2. He spent the last season in baseball in 1971 on RIO'S AAA team and was released and retired from baeball after that year.


Colorado

SS-Scott Evans- Scott Played in Colorado for 2 seasons one in a starting role, and one as a sub. In 1967 he put up below average numbers starting with a .240 average, .300 OBP, .655 OPS and .364 SLG. He hit 11 bombs and had 40 RBI'S. The following season he only had 63 at bats and hit .206. His total VORP for the 2 seasons was a -10.8
Following those 2 years in Colorado Evans played ball for the next 7 seasons 4at the big league level and had average success in Toronto from 1971-1973.


Evaluation

Its close but Im going with Rio in this one. Martin had a positive VORP and he did contribute to RIO in a positive way. In 1969 Martin had a VORP of 14.8 and he did have over a .500 record when he took the mound.

Evans was supposed to be a short term answer at SS until I could acquire a better one, or until a young SS could develop. He couldn't even last the two years I estimated I needed him.

Unfortunately, I never really did either (draft or acquire a permanent SS solution). The first hope was Lloyd Carnell, who never really hit as well as I thought he could. I never really put much faith in Javier Medina, who ended up being better than Carnell (I dealt him for Craig Davis). Kristopher Shaffer, drafted partly in response to the disappointment of Carnell himself never really developed into the type of player I had him pegged for, and I eventually cut him. I didn't really find an answer at SS in Colorado until, ever so briefly, I had John Bruce in 1972-73.

I never knew replacing Sandy Reed--a 1966 All Star but playing way better than his ratings--would be so hard.

Strangely enough, I am uncomfortable with the SS position organizationally in the ATL, too, so maybe this is a 'me' problem. ;)

I am glad Martin played solidly in Rio. He wasn't going to break a Colorado rotation that was just coming off of a Classic win and featured young pitchers in Pablo Gonzalez, Doug Proctor, Nelson Valdes, Alden Hendricks and Billy Nelson.

[Chief Rum]

In the most controversial deal in FOOL history

Hartford Sent

SP-Guillermo Flores
SP-Gabriel Molina
SP-Stand Martin
MR-Javier Vallerjo
C-Bernado Carillo
SS- Louis Lopez
1b-Jesse Ray
2nd- Jim Rausch
SS-Paul Herbert
LF- Jim Williams
CF-Russell Hicks
RF-Rafel Mendoza
1st round draft pick


Chicago Sent

C-Standford Jones
$100,000


Hartford

C-Stanford Jones- Stanford played in Hartford for 4 seasons being selected as an all star once and won 2 gold gloves at the Catcher spot along the way. His average average was .278 with an OBP of .377, an OPS of .817 and SLG of .439. He hit 52 homers with 265 RBI'S. His total VORP over the 4 seasons was 104.8. He was released in a cap saving move and has since played another 6 successful seasons and when in terms of talking about Cathers over the history of FOOL, should go down as one of the all time greats. He has a total of 5 all star selections and 4 Gold Gloves.


Chicago

SP-Guillermo Flores- Flores pitched for Chicago for 3 seasons getting bombed in all 3 of them before getting released. His record was a bismal 16-39and 1 save with an ERA of 6.16 and a WHIP of 1.78. His total VORP was an HORRID -53.8. Dont have much more else to say about him.

SP-Gabriel Molina- Gabriel never made the Chicago roster, and therefore there isnt a record of him being in the game.

SP-Stan Martin- Stan also Pitched for Chicago for 3 seasons getting bombed like his partner Flores. He went 20-51 with a 5.48 ERA and a 1.59 WHIP. He also had 464 K'S. His total VORP during this time frame was a -21.8. He was released after his 3 years in Chicago played one more year in Quad Cities AAA club and then retired.

MR-Javier Vallerjo- Javier was better over his 3 seasons in Chicago as he bounced around from a MR to a Starter in 3 years. he went 14-28 with 24 saves. His averae ERA was 4.57 and his WHIP was 1.54. He also tallied up 267K'S. His total VORP over the 3 year frame was 21.1. He was released after the 1969 season and spent 1 more year on the Texas squad where he did ok.

C-Bernado Carillo- Bernado started for Chicago for 3 seaons and wasnt half bad. His average average was .267, with an OBP of .336 with an OPS of .713 and a SLG of .377. He hit 26 bombs and 154 RBI'S. The AI released him after the season and Bernado went on to play 5 more years with Quad City and Rio Grande. His total VORP over those 3 years was 13.6.

SS- Louis Lopez Lopez played one season with Chicago and hit .210 with and OBP of .241 and OPS of .677 and SLG of .463. He hit 19 bombs and had 75 RBI'S. His VORP was a -5.1. He retired after the season.

1b-Jesse Ray- Jesse is an interesting Case. He had a wonderful 3 seasons in Chicago and it was a shame the AI decided not to keep him. In his 3 seasons Jesse was an all star once and had 2 Gold gloves. His average average was .288, with an OBP of .342, and OPS of .805, and SLG of .462. He hit 62 homers and had 210 RBI'S. His total VORP was 65.5.

2nd- Jim Rausch- Jim never made the Chicago squad and there isnt any record of him in the game.

SS-Paul Herbert- Paul also like most of the guys in this deal only spent 3 years in Chicago. He spent 2 years in the starting SS role than transitioned into the back up spot. His average average was .231 OPB of .292, and OPS of .642 and SLG of .349. He hit 27 dingers with 121 RBI'S. His VORP over that time was a -10.

LF- Jim Williams- Jim never made Chicago's roster and therefore isnt in the games database.

CF-Russell Hicks- Hicks like Williams never made the roster.

RF-Rafel Mendoza- Like the previous 2 above Rafel never made the roster.

I cant figure out who the draft pick was so im just gonna ignore it.


Evaluation

Even with 5 guys not making Chicago's roster and not being able to find the 1st round draft pick im calling this an even trade.

1b-Jesse Ray just about equalled or bettered C-Stanford Jones output over his 3 years in Chicago, (they both made an all star game and both won 2 gold gloves). Ray hit more homers, and if you subtract Stanfords last year in Hartford the RBI'S are just about equal. On top of that Chicago had 6 other guys start and play for them.

Im not gonna talley this one up on the Talley sheet, until I hear enough thoughts or opinions on this one, again as this was the most controversial deal in FOOL history.

But I would like to hear thoughts on who people think won this one.

Well, I was the main one complaining about this trade, so if I say it's okay, I would imagine everyone else will be cool. ;) I actually think it wasn't an even trade--Chicago came out ahead (which runs contrary to my opinion then).

I still hold that had Jones played to his ratings, this one would have been much more in favor of Hartford, but since he is a rather famous underachiever now, the Pooners certainly didn't get their money's worth.

It could have been worse, but obviously, the AI mismanaged the proceeds from this trade pretty badly.

[Alan T]

I disagree with Chief on this deal. I think it goes back to my comment about the "haves and have nots" in regards to free agent signings, who is worth overpaying for and who isn't. The same is applied to trades, and I don't think 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 is as good as a 7 when it comes to baseball sense.

Before I completely confuse people, I think it is really really easy in this league to find an average player, in face there are many teams that likely have several average quality players sitting at AAA with no where to play them even. What is not easy to get is a super star level player.

So if you trade a hard to get and much desired commodity for an easy to acquire and easily replacable commodity, then I think you have not improved anything, but instead have gotten worse.

When you trade a superstar for a group of prospects, you need at least one of the prospects to develop into a superstar status as well to make the trade somewhat even. Multiple superstars from those prospects obviously is a bonus.

In this trade, Hartford got a player that short of Tanaka probably couldn't be replaced by many people. Chicago got alot of players that actually ended up well below the average replacable player valuewise. The only two players that seemed to end up better than the average replacable player was a catcher (whom they traded a better catcher to get), and a 1B (which is the single easiest replacable position in the game).

So in my mind, this is a clear-cut Hartford win.

[muns]

Well, I was the main one complaining about this trade, so if I say it's okay, I would imagine everyone else will be cool. ;) I actually think it wasn't an even trade--Chicago came out ahead (which runs contrary to my opinion then).

I still hold that had Jones played to his ratings, this one would have been much more in favor of Hartford, but since he is a rather famous underachiever now, the Pooners certainly didn't get their money's worth.

It could have been worse, but obviously, the AI mismanaged the proceeds from this trade pretty badly.

Thanks for the opinion Chief. To be honest I too think Chicago got the better end of the stick, but I cant be objective, im going strictly off numbers. I cant let the AI botching it up affect my evaluation. They did it, and thats what I have to evaluate on.

[muns]

I disagree with Chief on this deal. I think it goes back to my comment about the "haves and have nots" in regards to free agent signings, who is worth overpaying for and who isn't. The same is applied to trades, and I don't think 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 is as good as a 7 when it comes to baseball sense.

Before I completely confuse people, I think it is really really easy in this league to find an average player, in face there are many teams that likely have several average quality players sitting at AAA with no where to play them even. What is not easy to get is a super star level player.

So if you trade a hard to get and much desired commodity for an easy to acquire and easily replacable commodity, then I think you have not improved anything, but instead have gotten worse.

When you trade a superstar for a group of prospects, you need at least one of the prospects to develop into a superstar status as well to make the trade somewhat even. Multiple superstars from those prospects obviously is a bonus.

In this trade, Hartford got a player that short of Tanaka probably couldn't be replaced by many people. Chicago got alot of players that actually ended up well below the average replacable player valuewise. The only two players that seemed to end up better than the average replacable player was a catcher (whom they traded a better catcher to get), and a 1B (which is the single easiest replacable position in the game).

So in my mind, this is a clear-cut Hartford win.

Very Very interesting take Alan. You do make some sense in what you say, but like i just said to Chief in my last post I cant be too objective. I have to go strictly off numbers when evaluating and looking at the deal.

Also I couldnt let the fact that Chicago was coming off a manager that didnt do crap for how many seasons in a row, and had no farm system what so ever. Jones was one of the guys that they had that was tradeable, so I just sent over a million spects to him with most of them being able to play right away. At the time IMO (Chief clearly didnt think so ;) I thought it was a decent deal for both of us, but I cant let that go into the evaluation either.

I went with even becuase the production between Stanford and Ray is about equal, and then that left 6 other guys that did start for Chicago on the Board. Those guys produced.... some better than others, but Stanford was consistant and produced better. Off pure numbers alone that (six extra guys starting and playing) pushes the win towards Chicago, however, in my mind Stanfords value was more than those 6 and his VORP killed those 6, but his value still equalled to ray. So that = even trade? That make any sense to anyone?

[Alan T]

I guess my only response to that is I don't really think that a 1B and a catcher that produce the same amount are actually equal. If anyone does feel that way, please drop me a PM. I have about 300 first-basemen that are quite good prospects that i would like to trade for your catcher prospect of equal worth. :)

I'm not even saying that the players with the negative VORP should bring down Chicago's value of the deal either, I'm saying they should be flat out considered non-factors in looking back on this deal. So now the deal has to be measured as Jones vs Ray + Carillo... and I would pick Jones 10 times out of 10, no question about it.

At the time I felt that it was a balanced deal, because I had assumed that some of those prospects would end up in developing into something good. I did not forsee that an AI would run them into the ground as did happen. But this review isn't about what might have been.. this review is about after all is said and done, who got the better end of the deal.. and knowing what we know Jones clearly wins this trade, so it is a clear cut Hartford win in my mind.

[muns]

I guess my only response to that is I don't really think that a 1B and a catcher that produce the same amount are actually equal. If anyone does feel that way, please drop me a PM. I have about 300 first-basemen that are quite good prospects that i would like to trade for your catcher prospect of equal worth. :)

I'm not even saying that the players with the negative VORP should bring down Chicago's value of the deal either, I'm saying they should be flat out considered non-factors in looking back on this deal. So now the deal has to be measured as Jones vs Ray + Carillo... and I would pick Jones 10 times out of 10, no question about it.

At the time I felt that it was a balanced deal, because I had assumed that some of those prospects would end up in developing into something good. I did not forsee that an AI would run them into the ground as did happen. But this review isn't about what might have been.. this review is about after all is said and done, who got the better end of the deal.. and knowing what we know Jones clearly wins this trade, so it is a clear cut Hartford win in my mind.

This is fun. Glad to get some back and forth on this :)

Now I see what you are saying more clear, and thats where we disagree.

Straight up off numbers IMO Ray and Jones have just about equal production. If your saying that they dont thats a differnt story, but I dont think you have said that yet.

Adding the cather Cardillo to the mix makes it even messier, and then there are still 5 other guys that started for Chicago. I think their negative VORP does bring down the Chicago guys in terms of value a little bit, but I cant just dismiss 5 guys starting and toss them out like you have suggested.... They did in fact start and play for 3 years.

Thats a question in itself. What is the value of 5 guys that started, but didnt do very well at all??? They were good enough to play and start, but not good enough to produce the results that most of us find to be sucessful. If it was one or 2 guys, I can see tossing them out maybe, but not 5 others in total.

Chicago got 7 guys in deal that played and started. Finding that balance is tough.

[Alan T]

This is fun. Glad to get some back and forth on this :)

Now I see what you are saying more clear, and thats where we disagree.

Straight up off numbers IMO Ray and Jones have just about equal production. If your saying that they dont thats a differnt story, but I dont think you have said that yet.

Adding the cather Cardillo to the mix makes it even messier, and then there are still 5 other guys that started for Chicago. I think their negative VORP does bring down the Chicago guys in terms of value a little bit, but I cant just dismiss 5 guys starting and toss them out like you have suggested.... They did in fact start and play for 3 years.

Thats a question in itself. What is the value of 5 guys that started, but didnt do very well at all??? They were good enough to play and start, but not good enough to produce the results that most of us find to be sucessful. If it was one or 2 guys, I can see tossing them out maybe, but not 5 others in total.

Chicago got 7 guys in deal that played and started. Finding that balance is tough.


Having a negative VORP is supposed to mean that the team would have been better off not even playing that player and instead just going with a league average player at that position. Any starting hitter that doesn't have a VORP of 20+ is not starter material usually if you take that stat to heart, and probably about the same for starting pitching. With bench players and relief pitchers, it is a bit different since they didn't get the playing time, but anything positive numberwise for relief pitchers or bench players should be sufficient.

A negative number means that they really shouldn't be considered as a positive in this deal as Chicago would have been better off not doing this trade and just picking up players at the same position for cheap in free agency instead.

[muns]

Having a negative VORP is supposed to mean that the team would have been better off not even playing that player and instead just going with a league average player at that position. Any starting hitter that doesn't have a VORP of 20+ is not starter material usually if you take that stat to heart, and probably about the same for starting pitching. With bench players and relief pitchers, it is a bit different since they didn't get the playing time, but anything positive numberwise for relief pitchers or bench players should be sufficient.

A negative number means that they really shouldn't be considered as a positive in this deal as Chicago would have been better off not doing this trade and just picking up players at the same position for cheap in free agency instead.

Which would have defeated the purpose of the deal in the first place, since he was trying to get spects to rebuild the team and didnt have anybody on the team that was better already. So play the spects hope they get better and go on, which is another reason why I cant just dismiss them, but of course thats being too objective again. :) which I cant be in evaluating a deal.

Your points are well taken though, and thanks for the back and forth. Everytime we talk I seem to learn a little something more that I hadn't looked at before or clearly misunderstood something and this time it was with the VORP. Even though you are currently kicking everybody's butt league wise which Im sure we could all do without ;) im glad you always chime in.

[Alan T]

Which would have defeated the purpose of the deal in the first place, since he was trying to get spects to rebuild the team and didnt have anybody on the team that was better already. So play the spects hope they get better and go on, which is another reason why I cant just dismiss them, but of course thats being too objective again. :) which I cant be in evaluating a deal.

Your points are well taken though, and thanks for the back and forth. Everytime we talk I seem to learn a little something more that I hadn't looked at before or clearly misunderstood something and this time it was with the VORP. Even though you are currently kicking everybody's butt league wise which Im sure we could all do without ;) im glad you always chime in.


Yeah, keep in mind I am speaking now in terms of a trade-review from years after the fact. At the time of the deal I said I felt it seemed fair, with the idea that some of those prospects would develop into worthwhile players. Whether or not they just flamed out, or were misplayed by the AI, who knows.. But years later in a trade review, it doesn't matter to me what his intent was at the time, or what the players might have ended up as.. All that matters is which players developed or played to ratings and which didn't.

In this case, like it or not, but out of those 7 players, only 2 ended up being worthwhile. Of those two, I think the catcher was only barely above average replacement talent level anyways. So that leaves really a 1B vs a Catcher, which I already commented on.

[muns]

New York sends:

SP William Kay
RF Henry "Goat" McKinney
New Yorks draft pick for 1966

Compton sends:

2b Sancho Lopez
SP Jose Gonzalez
SP Guus Barthen


New York

2b Sancho Lopez- Sancho played in NY for 6 seasons before heading back to Compton on a FA contract in 1973 where he still continues to play to this day. His average average was .264, OBP was .327, OPS was .780 with SLG being .453. He hit 134 homers and 450 RBI'S. He was slected to an all star game and his total VORP was 99.3

SP Jose Gonzalez- Jose never made the big league club and therefore the game doesnt have record of him.

SP Guus Barthen- Guus pitched for NY for 3 seasons before being let go in 1976. His record over that time was 25-40 with an average ERA of 3.79 and WHIP of 1.24. He had 480 K'S and his total VORP over that span was 50.6.


Compton

SP William Kay- William played for one season in Compton before being released and picked up in Atlanta where he pitched another 5 successful seasons before retiring in 1973. Williams record with Compton was 2-4 with an ERA of 3.72 and a WHIP of 1.30. He also recorded 95 K'S and his VORP that year was 16.9.

RF Henry "Goat" McKinney- The "Goat" played for Compton for 8 straight years before making one last stop in SD last season and then called it a carreer. Henry is one of the most under valued guys in FOOLS history as youll be albe to tell here. In those 8 seasons Henry's average average was .272, OBP was .353 , OPS was .861 and SLG was .510. He hit 226 homeruns with 626 RBI'S. He was a 3 time all star with Compton and also won the RL MVP award in 1968. His total VORP for this time period was 218.3.

Evaluation

As good a tandom was with Lopez and Barthum for NY this one has to go in favor of Compton.

Mckinney was simply a beast for 9 years, played in more all star games and was the main Cog of some playoff appearances for Compton. On top of that in 1968 he was in fact the main guy over on the RL side of the league, You cant argue with that. The cherry on top was that Mckinney put up the best individual performance in any season out of all the guys in this deal.

IMO Mckinney is one of the best players that nobody has talked about until DC brought him up a few days ago in a thread around here somewhere. I enjoyed doing this one.

[muns]

2 seasons of FOOL trades are now in the books :)

[muns]

Hartford Sends

SP Gabriel Prado
SP Charles Warlock Nelson
SP- Gunnar Jones
RF Roy Richardson
CF Victor Martinez


Seattle Sends

Sp Sachi Yamada
Sp dave walls
C-Dan Parks

Before going into this one, It looks like I really really got my canned kicked, but most will be surprised at this... I only just got my canned kicked :)


Seattle

SP Gabriel Prado Prado never played a season in Seattle, and after getting dealt to them was quickly shipped out to Compton which im sure will be discussed later.

SP Charles Warlock Nelson- Charles never got the chance to start in Seattle and played for their AAA club for 3 seaons. In Hartford his record was 90-66.

SP- Gunnar Jones- Gunnar was a highly prized spect with Hartford that never developed. he spent 3 years in Seattle before he was released and played one more season in Columbus. He went 26- 32 with His average ERA and WHIP being 4.54 and 1.42 respectfully. He had 342 K'S and his total VORP was 26.6

RF Roy Richardson- The future hall of famer played 3 years in Seattle and didnt dissapoint. He was selcted twice to the all star game and scored his 1,000 run at that time. His average average was .318, OBP was .395, OPS was .852 and SLG was .456. He hit 20 homers with 170 RBI'S and stole 54 bases. His total VORP was 106.4

CF Victor Martinez- Vicotor never made this big league club and there is no record of him in the games database.


Hartford

Sp Sachi Yamada- Sachi was a dissapointment to me and only played one season before I dealt him off to Toronto where he still played today. In his one season he went 5-19 with a 5.24 ERA and 1.33 WHIP. He had 165 K'S and his VORP was -1.8

Sp Dave Walls- Dave never made my club and was another waste.

C-Dan Parks- Dan was another spect that didnt pan out the way anyone was hoping. the former 5 star spect played 2 seasons in Hartford before being released. he hit .236 with an OPB of .253 an OPS of .624 and SLG was .371. He only had 12 bombs and 99 RBI'S. His total VORP was -16.3


Evaluation

Roy Richardson alone won this deal as Hartford didnt end up with anything to show for it. Im assuming Prado got tuned into something, so that just adds even more to it. While Gunnar Jones never lived up to his HYPE either, he did pitch ok and did contribute to Seattle. Seattle wins very easily here.

[muns]

Brooklyn Sends:
RF Patrick Catron

Valdosta Sends:
SP Patrick Bentley


Brooklyn

MR Patrick Bentley- Bently came over and spent 3 seasons in Brooklyn before being let go onto Columbus on a FA contract. In his 3 years he went 36-32 with an average ERA of 3.98 and an average WHIP of 1.37. He also had 397 K'S and had a total VORP of 65.7. The best year of his career (which can be argued) was in 1969 when he went 15-6 with an ERA of 2.90, with 131K'S and a WHIP of 1.17.


Valdosta

OF-Patrick Catron- Patrick spent the next 5 years in teh Valdosta AAA team before getting the big show call in 1973. Alan didnt like we he saw I guess as the following season he was sent back down to AAA and then dealt to Toronto where he had has an average 2 years. In 1973 Catron hit .233, had an OBP of .276, OPS of .656 and SLG of .380. He hit 3 dingers and had 45RBI'S with a VORP of 2.1


Evaluation

Im not even sure what was got From Toronto as the player history doesnt have it, but from this deal straight up, Brooklyn wins. Bently was a very productive Starter for Brooklyn while Catron struggled in his only season for Valdosta and never really lived up to Alans expectations.

Brooklyn get the win here.

[Alan T]

Brooklyn Sends:
RF Patrick Catron

Valdosta Sends:
SP Patrick Bentley


Brooklyn

MR Patrick Bentley- Bently came over and spent 3 seasons in Brooklyn before being let go onto Columbus on a FA contract. In his 3 years he went 36-32 with an average ERA of 3.98 and an average WHIP of 1.37. He also had 397 K'S and had a total VORP of 65.7. The best year of his career (which can be argued) was in 1969 when he went 15-6 with an ERA of 2.90, with 131K'S and a WHIP of 1.17.


Valdosta

OF-Patrick Catron- Patrick spent the next 5 years in teh Valdosta AAA team before getting the big show call in 1973. Alan didnt like we he saw I guess as the following season he was sent back down to AAA and then dealt to Toronto where he had has an average 2 years. In 1973 Catron hit .233, had an OBP of .276, OPS of .656 and SLG of .380. He hit 3 dingers and had 45RBI'S with a VORP of 2.1


Evaluation

Im not even sure what was got From Toronto as the player history doesnt have it, but from this deal straight up, Brooklyn wins. Bently was a very productive Starter for Brooklyn while Catron struggled in his only season for Valdosta and never really lived up to Alans expectations.

Brooklyn get the win here.


Yeah, I gave a little bit of the Bentley story in the FOOL Classic recently as he is now with Columbus. Basically Bentley ended up the odd man out because of Joel Garner having a suprising spring and stole his spot. Bentley had one year at MR before I found a taker for him in what was probably a bargain deal. For some reason, everyone in this league always says they need pitching, but they never want to trade for my pitchers. Bentley was another example of that where I really needed to move him or stick him in AAA, and this was the best deal I could get. I had another similar pitcher recently in George Crawford who was a solid pitcher for me for several years, yet I received ZERO trade inquires about him. For everyone saying they want pitching, I think they really don't want pitching :)

[Alan T]

Dola, this is where Catron eventually ended up:

Toronto sends

RF Sandy Anderson (AAA)
SS Kendrick Hayes (AAA)

Valdosta sends

RF Patrick Catron (AAA)
CF Emilio Perez (AAA)

[ekcut]

Yeah, I gave a little bit of the Bentley story in the FOOL Classic recently as he is now with Columbus. Basically Bentley ended up the odd man out because of Joel Garner having a suprising spring and stole his spot. Bentley had one year at MR before I found a taker for him in what was probably a bargain deal. For some reason, everyone in this league always says they need pitching, but they never want to trade for my pitchers. Bentley was another example of that where I really needed to move him or stick him in AAA, and this was the best deal I could get. I had another similar pitcher recently in George Crawford who was a solid pitcher for me for several years, yet I received ZERO trade inquires about him. For everyone saying they want pitching, I think they really don't want pitching :)

That is because they all overachieve ALL OF THEM!!! I know your pitchers wont pitch as well for me. I don't know how you do it, but your batters overachieve, and so do your pitchers! You must have them perfectly tailored to your ballpark...no wait, I already discoved you're tactic about 2 seasons ago....voodoo. Well I got me a live rooster and candlesticks for Millie and Jimmy's wedding...We're dealing with alot of shit here!

[Alan T]

That is because they all overachieve ALL OF THEM!!! I know your pitchers wont pitch as well for me. I don't know how you do it, but your batters overachieve, and so do your pitchers! You must have them perfectly tailored to your ballpark...no wait, I already discoved you're tactic about 2 seasons ago....voodoo. Well I got me a live rooster and candlesticks for Millie and Jimmy's wedding...We're dealing with alot of shit here!


That is a great movie :)

[muns]

Seattle Sent:
SP Gabriel Prado

Compton Sent:
SP James Lawrence
RF Marcos Melendez
MR Jose Lucero
C Juan Garza
SP Sandy Dunn
2nd round pick
$5,430,000

Compton

SP Gabriel Prado- Prado for as much stuff as he has done in FOOL has to be one of the most traded guys ever. 5 times this guy was traded, and 3 times it invloved both DC or Muns. Crazy stuff.

Prado only pitched one season for Compton and was let go into Free Agency. He went 12-7 with and ERA of 3.44 and a WHIP of 1.23 that year. He struck out 203 guys and had a VORP of 45.6


Seattle

SP James Lawrence- James pitched 3 seasons for Seattle going 38-29 with an everage ERA of 3.69 and an average WHIP of 1.41. He struck out 383 guys and had a total VORP of 107.

RF Marcos Melendez- Marcos never made it to the big league roster so he isnt in the games database.

MR Jose Lucero- Lucero piched 2 seasons in Seattle and failed miserably. He went 3-3 with an average ERA of 6.22 and an average WHIP of 1.40. He struck out 55 batters and his total VORP was -7.4 In 1970 he wasnt sent down to AAA and the following season he retired from baseball.

C Juan Garza- Juan didnt make it to the show and therefore is no record of him in the games database.

SP Sandy Dunn- Sandy pitched 2 seasons in seattle before getting released and retiring. He went 17-23 with 1 save and had an average ERA of 5.56 and an average WHIP of 1.61. He struck out 189 guys and had a total VORP of -17.9

Evaluation

If Compton would have made the playoffs or won the title or kept Prado more than one yera id think this would have gone over to them. However since they didnt and finished up 4th in the RL that year, this has to go over to Seattle as James Lawerence stayed there 3 years and was a major factor on their ballclub.

[muns]

All trades from the trade boards have now been compleated. Now it switches over to each individual post as that was the new format DC came up with.

[Chief Rum]

I disagree with Chief on this deal. I think it goes back to my comment about the "haves and have nots" in regards to free agent signings, who is worth overpaying for and who isn't. The same is applied to trades, and I don't think 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 is as good as a 7 when it comes to baseball sense.

Before I completely confuse people, I think it is really really easy in this league to find an average player, in face there are many teams that likely have several average quality players sitting at AAA with no where to play them even. What is not easy to get is a super star level player.

So if you trade a hard to get and much desired commodity for an easy to acquire and easily replacable commodity, then I think you have not improved anything, but instead have gotten worse.

When you trade a superstar for a group of prospects, you need at least one of the prospects to develop into a superstar status as well to make the trade somewhat even. Multiple superstars from those prospects obviously is a bonus.

In this trade, Hartford got a player that short of Tanaka probably couldn't be replaced by many people. Chicago got alot of players that actually ended up well below the average replacable player valuewise. The only two players that seemed to end up better than the average replacable player was a catcher (whom they traded a better catcher to get), and a 1B (which is the single easiest replacable position in the game).

So in my mind, this is a clear-cut Hartford win.

Good points, Alan, and that actually parallels my philosophy on these, even with the apparent disagreement. I only call this one for Chicago in hindsight in a comparison of the numbers (and I would stand by that). As a philosophy, I still think the team that gets the superstar ends up with the best deal.

I traded away a lot of very good future players for Craig Davis in (I think 1969), in a very similar deal, and I would make that deal again in a heartbeat, even though I dealt away strong young players like Marcus Montoya, Javier Medina and Zane Easson, among several others (some of whom didn't really pan out, David Hardee...).

[Chief Rum]

2 seasons of FOOL trades are now in the books :)

Awesome. I am loving it. Keep it up!

[Chief Rum]

Yeah, I gave a little bit of the Bentley story in the FOOL Classic recently as he is now with Columbus. Basically Bentley ended up the odd man out because of Joel Garner having a suprising spring and stole his spot. Bentley had one year at MR before I found a taker for him in what was probably a bargain deal. For some reason, everyone in this league always says they need pitching, but they never want to trade for my pitchers. Bentley was another example of that where I really needed to move him or stick him in AAA, and this was the best deal I could get. I had another similar pitcher recently in George Crawford who was a solid pitcher for me for several years, yet I received ZERO trade inquires about him. For everyone saying they want pitching, I think they really don't want pitching :)

Heh...how many times have I said it. I can't trust the pitching stats from your park. I'll never give you a fair deal for a pitcher. :D :p

[Alan T]

Heh...how many times have I said it. I can't trust the pitching stats from your park. I'll never give you a fair deal for a pitcher. :D :p


The easy way to handle that is just look at how the pitchers did on the road. Some of the pitchers have very defined splits, and others don't. Carlos Gonzales for instance is awesome everywhere, and if I ever did trade him (which I won't), if someone gave me that line, I would be pretty insulted. If you said that in a trade regarding Joel Garner, then I would probably agree with you. :)

Obviously Bentley is a pitcher that pitched as well away as he did at home, as do alot of my pitchers. Just a matter of doing research! It is funny that I don't get the opposite consideration when trying to trade a batter that has good stats. Shouldn't he then be even that much more awesome??? :)

Anyways, gotta run, heading to the movies. Good luck to everyone in the RL tonight. I hope all of the CL struggles except me! :)