Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Flasch186]

oh crap, she says 'Nucular' too!

[Galaxy]

So what do conservatives think can help alleviate or help those less fortunate?

The US is a capitalist society. Those that are on top have made their money by providing a good or service to a large amount of people. This applies from McDonald's to Walmart, actors to drug dealers. The point is that if the bottom economic rungs of society do better, the top will do better.

Do conservative see that?

Define less fortunate first.

However:

1) The rich should be rewarded for what they create. They do a lot more than the government, bloated by waste and bureaucracy could. They provide jobs, tax revenue (the wealthy pay a large % of the US tax revenue), new products and services that benefit society. They also how to create new jobs and such through managing money.

2) The government already has a wealth of social programs. We have Medicaid/Medicare, welfare/disability/Social Security/food stamps, low-income housing and assistance in paying bills (heating/gas, ect.) and homeless shelters. We have educational programs all over.

3) The increase in charity from people (particularly the upper crust of income generators). They are more pro-active and demand results.

I don't think just taking money from a wealthier party, who has worked hard and created something, and giving it to the less fortunate works.

[Flasch186]

Theyre really going after the Hillary vote.

[Galaxy]

Theyre really going after the Hillary vote.

I kind of wonder how Hillary is feeling right now. I wonder if she is pissed as hell.

[SFL Cat]

Having traveled a bit, our view of poverty in this country is rather jaded.

[timmynausea]

I thought they were going for the Tina Fey vote when I saw that banner.

[larrymcg421]

I really think the Dems attacking a VP pick (last time I checked, the president runs the country, not the VP) over inexperience would really do them no good. They would just be asking for an aggressive attack that highlights Obama's inexperience.

Palin need to take her glasses off.

I don't know, if done correctly they can corner McCain into a difficult position. If he says that Palin is qualified to be President, then it's going to be awfully hard to criticize Obama's inexperience.

[Schmidty]

oh crap, she says 'Nucular' too!

Yeah, that was hilarious.

[Schmidty]

I kind of wonder how Hillary is feeling right now. I wonder if she is pissed as hell.

I'm sure she's at least a tiny bit conflicted.

[timmynausea]

I don't know, if done correctly they can corner McCain into a difficult position. If he says that Palin is qualified to be President, then it's going to be awfully hard to criticize Obama's inexperience.

That can kind of work both ways, ie - How can Obama's campaign criticize her inexperience? However, Obama has been in the public eye for so much longer that I think there is the illusion of much more experience than her. I think it was a mistake to put someone in the race with less experience than Obama. It undoes their strongest Obama attack to some degree.

[Noop]

I think she looks alright. I wonder if she spits or swallows though...

[Flasch186]

well apparently she's great for the religious right so that's great for the McCain camp.

[SFL Cat]

That can kind of work both ways, ie - How can Obama's campaign criticize her inexperience? However, Obama has been in the public eye for so much longer that I think there is the illusion of much more experience than her. I think it was a mistake to put someone in the race with less experience than Obama. It undoes their strongest Obama attack to some degree.

She's a governor. Bill Clinton used that on his political resume too. Obama has ZERO executive experience, so if his people try to play the inexperience card on her...blammo it comes back to bite them big time.

[Galaxy]

That can kind of work both ways, ie - How can Obama's campaign criticize her inexperience? However, Obama has been in the public eye for so much longer that I think there is the illusion of much more experience than her. I think it was a mistake to put someone in the race with less experience than Obama. It undoes their strongest Obama attack to some degree.

But do you see the jobs of the Presidency and Vice Presidency different? I guess it depends on how one will see these roles.

[ace1914]

Having traveled a bit, our view of poverty in this country is rather jaded.


I hate that logic.

"There are people who shit stinks worse, so be happy."

None of those people live in America, you can't make that comparison.

[molson]

That can kind of work both ways, ie - How can Obama's campaign criticize her inexperience? However, Obama has been in the public eye for so much longer that I think there is the illusion of much more experience than her. I think it was a mistake to put someone in the race with less experience than Obama. It undoes their strongest Obama attack to some degree.

Ya, I think Obama ultamitely wins that back and forth because he's more experienced than her.

Still, it's funny to think that just a few pages back, people were arguging over whether experience mattered at all, and now everyone has to backtrack and sort out their opinions on that based on these developments.

[molson]

But do you see the jobs of the Presidency and Vice Presidency different? I guess it depends on how one will see these roles.

They are, but the Obama camp will make much of the fact that she's a "heartbeat away from the presidency".

She has enough experience to be VP

[ace1914]

She's a governor. Bill Clinton used that on his political resume too. Obama has ZERO executive experience, so if his people try to play the inexperience card on her...blammo it comes back to bite them big time.

Again, so did Bush. Experience is overrated. Its all about good decision making.

[Kodos]

McCain's skin cancer issues certainly make her experience an issue to consider.

[Vegas Vic]

Ya, I think Obama ultamitely wins that back and forth because he's more experienced than her.

the GOP vice-presidential nominee is as experienced as the Democratic presidential nominee but also has executive decision-making that Obama lacks. Her tough stance on reform of long corrupt practices could give her a very clear advantage over practiced cronyists Obama and Biden.

[timmynausea]

I do think one's evaluation of the roles could be a factor, but I'm talking more about public perception than the practical meaning. I think some people are going to go from "What do we really know about Obama?" who has been nationally known for 4 years to "Who the hell is this woman?" She has no experience and they didn't even know who she was at all. I just think it undermines that doubt they had created about Obama. It shifts the unknown to her, at least to some degree.

I think going with a ticket of total experience would've reinforced McCain's strength. Just my opinion.

[molson]

the GOP vice-presidential nominee is as experienced as the Democratic presidential nominee but also has executive decision-making that Obama lacks. Her tough stance on reform of long corrupt practices could give her a very clear advantage over practiced cronyists Obama and Biden.

That's true, she's actually the only one on either ticket with executive experience.

Not sure whether that matters in a practical sense, or whether people will even pick up on that distinction.

[Flasch186]

LOL, The Republican talking head said Palin wont be the 'attack dog' because this elections isnt about attacks....um, have you seen the ads thus far, not taking into account who's responsible for the ad? That was as disingenuous a statement as Ive heard all week from either side.

[SFL Cat]

I hate that logic.

"There are people who shit stinks worse, so be happy."

None of those people live in America, you can't make that comparison.

I can when a lot of the people I speak of would absolutely LOVE to trade places with an American "poor" person because, for them, it would be a major step up in their standard of living.

[ace1914]

the GOP vice-presidential nominee is as experienced as the Democratic presidential nominee but also has executive decision-making that Obama lacks. Her tough stance on reform of long corrupt practices could give her a very clear advantage over practiced cronyists Obama and Biden.

Isn't the point of the VP to pick someone who is qualified to be president in the event that something happens to the president?

Therefore to be qualified to be vice-president, you have be qualified to be president, right?

[larrymcg421]

Ya, I think Obama ultamitely wins that back and forth because he's more experienced than her.

Still, it's funny to think that just a few pages back, people were arguging over whether experience mattered at all, and now everyone has to backtrack and sort out their opinions on that based on these developments.

The point is that the VP choice can potentially take away one of McCain's best attacks. That doesn't mean someone's opinion of whether or not experience matters has changed.

[ace1914]

I can when a lot of the people I speak of would absolutely LOVE to trade places with an American "poor" person because, for them, it would be a major step up in their standard of living.

What does domestic economic policy have to do with how people live in 3rd world countries?

[MikeVic]

Tiny Fey lol.

[Galaxy]

What does domestic economic policy have to do with how people live in 3rd world countries?

As I posted a post a page ago, how do you define "poor"?

[SFL Cat]

Isn't the point of the VP to pick someone who is qualified to be president in the event that something happens to the president?

Therefore to be qualified to be vice-president, you have be qualified to be president, right?

I guess you could say a lot of people are looking at Obama the same way, yeah the guy makes pretty speeches...but what has he done? If it weren't a major concern, I don't think the race would be as close as it is.

[SteveMax58]

Ya, I think Obama ultamitely wins that back and forth because he's more experienced than her.

I normally agree with most of your posts...which is why I usually dont feel overly compelled to post the same comment...but I actually disagree with this for the following reasons.

Obama/Biden can try that tact, but in reality, this is a woman with more executive experience than the other 3 candidates combined.

Couple that with (whether valid or otherwise) having less (or nearly zero) baggage issues to defend and I think it's a road that Dems would be better served to stay away from.

But I would agree that Dems would be well served to argue that if Palin is capable of being President, then so is Obama. But really...is that a compelling outcome to even bother broaching the subject over? IMHO, nope.

[ace1914]

As I posted a post a page ago, how do you define "poor"?

Why would I use economic conditions outside of the US as a reference point?

[SFL Cat]

Why wouldn't you?

[larrymcg421]

the GOP vice-presidential nominee is as experienced as the Democratic presidential nominee but also has executive decision-making that Obama lacks. Her tough stance on reform of long corrupt practices could give her a very clear advantage over practiced cronyists Obama and Biden.

Take it easy, dude. You're not her press secretary.

[ace1914]

I guess you could say a lot of people are looking at Obama the same way, yeah the guy makes pretty speeches...but what has he done? If it weren't a major concern, I don't think the race would be as close as it is.

The point is that either they are both qualified to be president or neither are qualified to be president. If they are both qualified to be president then why vote for McCain or anybody else with "Washington experience?"

[Galaxy]

Isn't the point of the VP to pick someone who is qualified to be president in the event that something happens to the president?

Therefore to be qualified to be vice-president, you have be qualified to be president, right?

I can see that. However, say some president dies two years into a term. With two years of of being the vice president, I think one certainly has enough experience to step into the presidency role.

[molson]

Why wouldn't you?

If you're at the bottom of the barrel in the United States, or if you're facing injustices here, that's where you are, that's what you're fighting against.

A pre-civil rights African American was still better off than a lot of African blacks. So he should just shut up and accept the injustices because there's someone worse off somewhere?

Should we care less about poverty because our poor people are relatively well off?

[Galaxy]

Why would I use economic conditions outside of the US as a reference point?

I'm not the one who did, SFL Cat did. However, that wasn't my question. My question was how do you define poor?

[SteveMax58]

I guess you could say a lot of people are looking at Obama the same way, yeah the guy makes pretty speeches...but what has he done? If it weren't a major concern, I don't think the race would be as close as it is.

+1

I'd also argue that Palin, in her first & only speech as VP nominee, has already complimented her Presidential nominee in more ways than Biden has all week.

At least if you draw a distinction between saying "Obama is about change and will right that wrong" vs. "McCain has demonstrated his willingness to put his country first".

These are, of course, simplified versions...but it is the ultimate message that I come away with.

[Vegas Vic]

In the end, the vice presidential nominees do not have that much impact on the general election.

In 1988, everyone thought that GHWB blew the election when he picked Dan Quayle. Ultimately, the Democratic VP, Lloyd Bentsen, ended up casting a shadow over Michael Dukakis because Bentsen was perceived as being more qualified than Dukakis.

[ace1914]

I'm not the one who did, SFL Cat did. However, that wasn't my question. My question was how do you define poor?

I guess if I had to quantify it would be 2 parent/2 kid household:

700-rent/mortgage
300-food
800-car
200-medical
300-utilities
200 gas
--------------
2500-month
x 12
---------------
30000--aprox.
---------------
anything less than 35,000/yr-40000 would probably be poor.

Go ahead and attack. I know when I'm being set up.

[ace1914]

I can see that. However, say some president dies two years into a term. With two years of of being the vice president, I think one certainly has enough experience to step into the presidency role.

On the job training.

[SFL Cat]

If you're at the bottom of the barrel in the United States, or if you're facing injustices here, that's where you are, that's what you're fighting against.

A pre-civil rights African American was still better off than a lot of African blacks. So he should just shut up and accept the injustices because there's someone worse off somewhere?

Should we care less about poverty because our poor people are relatively well off?

If a person doesn't get the necessities to continue to stay alive, then that person would be my first priority, regardless of nationality.

And, I'll admit I do get a little riled when I go to the Supermarket late at night and the lady in front of me in line is paying for her groceries with food stamps while talking on a cell phone that costs $150 more than the one I use.

[flere-imsaho]

Dole/Ferraro 2008

Good call. If I remember correctly, Ferraro didn't have a lot of experience, and had policy views that spoke to the Democratic base as Palin's do to the GOP's base.

[Flasch186]

If a person doesn't get the necessities to continue to stay alive, then that person would be my first priority, regardless of nationality.

this doesnt vibe with other facets in your party's platform...

nor your leader's voting records in regards to what I would consider to fall under the umbrella in your quote above.

[flere-imsaho]

Since when did the American presidency become about "experience" though?

It's funny that with the Palin pick, the two major avenues the McCain has been attacking Obama on for the past quarter ("experience" and "celebrity") are basically totally neutered right now. I wonder what their major themes will now be during the run-up.

[Alan T]

I guess if I had to quantify it would be 2 parent/2 kid household:

700-rent/mortgage
300-food
800-car
200-medical
300-utilities
200 gas
--------------
2500-month
x 12
---------------
30000--aprox.
---------------
anything less than 35,000/yr-40000 would probably be poor.

Go ahead and attack. I know when I'm being set up.


Not sure what part of the country you live in, but the car seems a bit high and rent seems way low. I doubt a poor 2 person family would have 2 car payments, so probably closer to $200-$400 a month. But rent, I haven't seen below $1000 a month for a small apartment since I moved from the South a long time ago. So I guess it all balances out! :)

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, I hear there's millions of Republicans turned Democrat. I also hear there's millions of Clintonites voting for McCain. I'll believe both when I see it in November.

Even with Palin on the ticket, I wonder how many PUMAs are going to go with McCain, especially with that now established as the anti-Choice ticket very solidly. Are so many Clinton supporters really going to vote against their own issues? I'm trying to remember if that's really happened before. Bucc?

[Galaril]

First off smart choise by the Repubs. As for attracting Hilary's voters I say not likely for one big reason. She is a huge antiabortionist so I doubt that will atract them and expect the Dems to remind people of this often. I think Hilary should feel like she has fucked herself by subtley getting her base to turn on Obama before which really is why the Repubs choose a woman IMHO. now if McCain wins in four years you got a guaranteed VP weho will kill Hilary. So she pretty much can kiss her chance asd Pres. 20012 goodbye baby..............Oh, despite the fact the mom is hot the older daughter has some serious guns already but not sure how old she is.

[Galaxy]

I guess if I had to quantify it would be 2 parent/2 kid household:

700-rent/mortgage
300-food
800-car
200-medical
300-utilities
200 gas
--------------
2500-month
x 12
---------------
30000--aprox.
---------------
anything less than 35,000/yr-40000 would probably be poor.

Go ahead and attack. I know when I'm being set up.

Why have two kids when your making $30,000 in combined salary? What does $800 in car mean? Is that car payments?

Anyways, as I posted in a previous post:

1) The rich should be rewarded for what they create. They do a lot more than the government, bloated by waste and bureaucracy could. They provide jobs, tax revenue (the wealthy pay a large % of the US tax revenue), new products and services that benefit society. They also how to create new jobs and such through managing money.

2) The government already has a wealth of social programs. We have Medicaid/Medicare, welfare/disability/Social Security/food stamps, low-income housing and assistance in paying bills (heating/gas, ect.) and homeless shelters. We have educational programs all over.

3) The increase in charity from people (particularly the upper crust of income generators). They are more pro-active and demand results.

I don't think just taking money from a wealthier party, who has worked hard and created something, and giving it to the less fortunate works.

[flere-imsaho]

Education in America is indoctrination into the liberal ideology.

The conservative wing of my PoliSci class (i.e. the group of us who went through the major together) would probably have disagreed with you. But then again, I think we had good profs.

[ace1914]

Not sure what part of the country you live in, but the car seems a bit high and rent seems way low. I doubt a poor 2 person family would have 2 car payments, so probably closer to $200-$400 a month. But rent, I haven't seen below $1000 a month for a small apartment since I moved from the South a long time ago. So I guess it all balances out! :)

I was including maintenance and All-State.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Even with Palin on the ticket, I wonder how many PUMAs are going to go with McCain, especially with that now established as the anti-Choice ticket very solidly. Are so many Clinton supporters really going to vote against their own issues? I'm trying to remember if that's really happened before. Bucc?

Perhaps you missed it, but that was my whole point. I think both are overblown. There's probably some moving that way on both ends, but they'll cancel themselves out in the end.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm sure someone has pointed this out, but I'm 4 pages back. There is ZERO chance that Hillary supporters will flock to Palin. She's pro-life. That alone kills that idea.

[SFL Cat]

this doesnt vibe with other facets in your party's platform...

nor your leader's voting records in regards to what I would consider to fall under the umbrella in your quote above.

I think most people on the conservative side would rather utilize private charities to tackle problems like this, rather than letting bloated government bureaucracies handle it...which seems to be the only approach the donkey party will consider.

[Galaril]

First off smart choise by the Repubs. As for attracting Hilary's voters I say not likely for one big reason. She is a huge antiabortionist so I doubt that will atract them and expect the Dems to remind people of this often. I think Hilary should feel like she has fucked herself by subtley getting her base to turn on Obama before which really is why the Repubs choose a woman IMHO. now if McCain wins in four years you got a guaranteed VP weho will kill Hilary. So she pretty much can kiss her chance asd Pres. 20012 goodbye baby..............Oh, despite the fact the mom is hot the older daughter has some serious guns already but not sure how old she is.

i'm sure someone has pointed this out, but I'm 4 pages back. There is ZERO chance that Hillary supporters will flock to Palin. She's pro-life. That alone kills that idea.


Yup I beat you to it my man;)

[SFL Cat]

I don't think McCain is going after Hillary votes with his choice so much as energizing conservatives still sitting on the fence.

[molson]

Are so many Clinton supporters really going to vote against their own issues? I'm trying to remember if that's really happened before. Bucc?

Reagan Democrat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Democrat)

We won't see anything on that scale, but the general phenomenon could be relevant.

[molson]

i'm sure someone has pointed this out, but I'm 4 pages back. There is ZERO chance that Hillary supporters will flock to Palin. She's pro-life. That alone kills that idea.

Unless they realize that a VP's aborition views mean NOTHING. In fact, she could do more harm to aborition rights as governor of Alaska.

Edit: Oh, unless McCain dies. I have to remember that.

[flere-imsaho]

I sometimes want to vote liberal, but they turn my stomach.

Speaking of turning one's stomach, I think the biggest single factor that's turned more more anti-GOP (as opposed to pro-Democrat which is a longer-held stance) over the past few years is the "you're either with us or against us" and "liberals are anti-US and not patriotic" schtick. Given my experience with my brother, all that's served to do is make me more angry, even to the point of just being blanket against the GOP (at times) even though there are plenty of member who I'd normally objectively respect.

So it cuts both ways.

And I've had plenty of people give me shit about the very small peace symbol on the back of my car. Usually questioning my patriotism. When I explain that my brother served in Iraq while they got their fat ass down to Applebees to fill their lazy face they usually back down. I guess they assume liberals won't fight.

On a tangent, then, one of the reasons I do like talking about stuff like politics at FOFC is that there's very few people here who do the stuff above. I respect the conservative posters here, and if I had the chance, I'm sure I'd enjoy talking to them in Real Life. Even Cam. :p

[Flasch186]

Looks like all of the churches are in a fever over this and are now more motivated than ever to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket. She was the Evangelical favorite.

[molson]

Speaking of turning one's stomach, I think the biggest single factor that's turned more more anti-GOP (as opposed to pro-Democrat which is a longer-held stance) over the past few years is the "you're either with us or against us" and "liberals are anti-US and not patriotic" schtick

It's not a good schtick. I think it's faded in use over the last 2-3 years or so though.

[JPhillips]

Obama would be a fool to bring up experience and I highly doubt you'll hear anything from anyone connected to the campaign. However, what this does is neutralize the experience issue especially for the media types. If experience is off the table as an issue that's a net positive for Obama.

But just to inoculate myself, I still think judgment is far more important than experience.

[flere-imsaho]

For those of you who think that McCain picked Palin solely on her gender; she is is the youngest governor in Alaska history and she was elected largely on the issue of ethics reform, one of McCain's longtime caucuses. During her time in the governor's mansion, Palin has also fought "pork barrel spending," another top McCain issue.

It's pretty telling about the current state of affairs in the GOP that someone who abuses her office to retaliate against her brother-in-law is still considered a paragon of ethical reform.

The Alaska GOP machine is generally considered to be one of the worst in the country. Almost as corrupt, really, as the Chicago Democratic machine which, ironically, Obama fought against to gain his initial seat to the Illinois Senate. I wonder how McCain's vetting process went, because I hope for his sake there's not a lot more to uncover there in the next two months.

[KWhit]

I don't think McCain is going after Hillary votes with his choice so much as energizing conservatives still sitting on the fence.

I don't think that's true at all.

She already pandered to the Hillary supporters in her first speech.

[SFL Cat]

It's pretty telling about the current state of affairs in the GOP that someone who abuses her office to retaliate against her brother-in-law is still considered a paragon of ethical reform.

The Alaska GOP machine is generally considered to be one of the worst in the country. Almost as corrupt, really, as the Chicago Democratic machine which, ironically, Obama fought against to gain his initial seat to the Illinois Senate. I wonder how McCain's vetting process went, because I hope for his sake there's not a lot more to uncover there in the next two months.

Not like Obama or Biden have any ethical skeletons in the closet ... :lol:

[ace1914]

Why have two kids when your making $30,000 in combined salary? What does $800 in car mean? Is that car payments?

Anyways, as I posted in a previous post:

1) [quote]The rich should be rewarded for what they create. They do a lot more than the government, bloated by waste and bureaucracy could. They provide jobs, tax revenue (the wealthy pay a large % of the US tax revenue), new products and services that benefit society. They also how to create new jobs and such through managing money.
Isn't being rich the reward? That's the object of the game of capitalism. Hell that's why so many insanely rich people give away so much money. They've already won the game. What other reward is there? Oh yea, the reward of giving back to those less fortunate.


2) The government already has a wealth of social programs. We have Medicaid/Medicare, welfare/disability/Social Security/food stamps, low-income housing and assistance in paying bills (heating/gas, ect.) and homeless shelters. We have educational programs all over.
People have a misconception that people actually "want" to be on welfare. That's why I think the idea of driving towards renewable energy is so crucial. The same people that we complain about being on welfare and other government assistance programs would much rather have a job and dignity than ask for a handout.


3) The increase in charity from people (particularly the upper crust of income generators). They are more pro-active and demand results.
Please explain further because I don't understand the validity of this statement.



I don't think just taking money from a wealthier party, who has worked hard and created something, and giving it to the less fortunate works.
I don't think making continuing tax-breaks for the very wealthy does anything but increase the gap between the haves and the have-nots.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, you'll come around. I voted for Bill Clinton twice in my younger years. :eek:

Well, I'm 35, with a house, a new child, and an income which places me in the highest tax bracket and my politics are still as progressive as they were when I was in College (though perhaps better focused).

In fact, it's telling that one of the GOP attacks on Obama is that he's got the support of a lot of rich, elite Democrats. So, is he a friend of the wealthy, or not GOP? Make up your mind. :D

Plus, look at his economics team again (from the free-market University of Chicago). Not a lot of pamby-mamby bleeding heart liberals there.

[flere-imsaho]

okay, looks like McCain is picking a hottie to be his VP running mate...he's got my vote now.

You're so cute when you pretend to have been the objective observer all along. :lol:

[SFL Cat]

I don't think that's true at all.

She already pandered to the Hillary supporters in her first speech.

If the GOP gets any Hillary voters, it will be because McCain is already a RINO.

I could be wrong, but I think this VP choice will appeal to a lot of conservative voters who were thinking of sitting this one out. If that wasn't a concern for McCain, he would have chosen someone pro-abortion -- and his campaign did send out feelers to state GOP leaders to find out what reaction would be if he did pick a pro-abortion running mate.

[molson]

It's pretty telling about the current state of affairs in the GOP that someone who abuses her office to retaliate against her brother-in-law is still considered a paragon of ethical reform.



Weren't you one of the people who flipped out in the Jon Edwards thread about people stating things as facts when they weren't?

We don't know the truth (yet). She certainly denies it and has offered an explanation for the dismissal.

I can tell you from my job that government employee terminations are always a tricky thing (one of the reasons government is so wasteful and doesn't work).

If you fire someone, they can come up with a poltical reason for it. That's why paper trials are so important, and you have to develop one for years before you can fire someone who's clearly awful. There's even a chilling effect. If there's some kind of dispute, you immediately think, "shit, now we can never fire that person".

This fired government employee knew he had this in his back pocket, and very well might have assumed he was untouchable and acted accordingly (he wouldn't be the first). Governments are filled with incompetent people (spending your tax dollars, by the way). A lot of that money you want to "liberate" from rich people is just being used to prepare for these termination lawsuits (and then defending them). So guess where that tax money ends up - with the lawyers. Might as well just let Walmart have the money, pre-waste, so they use it in the economy.

[SFL Cat]

You're so cute when you pretend to have been the objective observer all along. :lol:

McCain's not my guy...never has been. I was seriously considering sitting this one out, and I still might.

But if I do vote, it will be for McCain.

[Arles]

It's pretty telling about the current state of affairs in the GOP that someone who abuses her office to retaliate against her brother-in-law is still considered a paragon of ethical reform.
One instance does not a person create. Atleast, those rooting for Biden better hope that's the case. Plus, there's not much substance here. Her husband may have done some questionable things, but she was not involves (it's like punishing Hillary for some things Bill did - I doubt much comes of it).

IMO, when your first act as governor is to put the "governor jet" on ebay and bring in $2.7 million in revenue, I would say that's a pretty powerful image on cutting wasteful spending. Combine that with how she slashed the bloated construction boondoggle and you have someone who has done more against powerful special interests than Obama or Biden combined.

The Alaska GOP machine is generally considered to be one of the worst in the country. Almost as corrupt, really, as the Chicago Democratic machine which, ironically, Obama fought against to gain his initial seat to the Illinois Senate. I wonder how McCain's vetting process went, because I hope for his sake there's not a lot more to uncover there in the next two months.
One of the reasons she gained notoriety was going against both "machines" in the legislative branch. She beat former governors with strong machine backing in both the rep primary and general election. Then, she went on to take fiscal stances that hurt legislative members of both parties. Essentially, she went out and did what Obama has been promising he will do for 8 years (but not deliver).


Here's the positives of adding here:

1. It adds life and interest to a very dull campaign.
2. It reinvigorate the conservatives (both social and fiscal).
3. She has a strong background in business and running a very tricky state (esp from a political standpoint).
4. While many are pointing to her pro-life stance, she will still be very attractive to women (esp independents). Her history as a mom, business woman, governor and her persona will attract some women voters. If McCain just get a small portion of the independents (not even the democrats) who voted for Hillary, it could be huge.
5. She is very likable. Once people listen to here and see her make cases for different ideas, she comes across very well.

At the end of the day, this draws a stark comparison with Obama and steals his thunder from the convention. Obama goes out and says he wants to change Washington, then adds a guy who's been in the senate longer than McCain. McCain says he was to change Washington, and he adds a governor from out west with a strong reform background. One could read into this that Obama is more interested in winning the election than sticking to the principles he started his campaign with.

[flere-imsaho]

I really think the Dems attacking a VP pick (last time I checked, the president runs the country, not the VP) over inexperience would really do them no good. They would just be asking for an aggressive attack that highlights Obama's inexperience.


To turn this on its head, if one of the roles of the VP is to attack the other party's Presidential candidate, then would you rather have Biden attacking McCain or Palin attacking Obama?

[flere-imsaho]

Watching the speech and she seems very amateurish in the start of her speech but Ill cut her some slack since she's probably blown away by her selection as well.

She's got one week to get really good at public speaking or she's going to crash & burn at the RNC.

[Galaril]

Somebody just mentioned John Edwards what the hell happened to him I haven't heard any word about him I was surprised he wasn't asked to be at the convention what happened did the guy go join the Peace Corp or something?

[molson]

One could read into this that Obama is more interested in winning the election than sticking to the principles he started his campaign with.

Say it isn't so!!! Not Obama!!!!

[molson]

She's got one week to get really good at public speaking or she's going to crash & burn at the RNC.

It's not that hard to give a prepared speech in front of a friendly crowd.

[Galaril]

It's not that hard to give a prepared speech in front of a friendly crowd.


Biden is going to chew up and spit out Frontier Barbie at the VP deabte(s).

[flere-imsaho]

She's a governor. Bill Clinton used that on his political resume too. Obama has ZERO executive experience, so if his people try to play the inexperience card on her...blammo it comes back to bite them big time.

Of course, McCain has ZERO executive experience as well.

[SFL Cat]

Somebody just mentioned John Edwards what the hell happened to him I haven't heard any word about him I was surprised he wasn't asked to be at the convention what happened did the guy go join the Peace Corp or something?

He tried to pull off a Clinton...

...but there is only ONE Bill Clinton. He has gone the way of Gary Hart.

[SFL Cat]

Of course, McCain has ZERO executive experience as well.

So, of the four of them, I guess that makes Palin most qualified to be President.

[Young Drachma]

Somebody just mentioned John Edwards what the hell happened to him I haven't heard any word about him I was surprised he wasn't asked to be at the convention what happened did the guy go join the Peace Corp or something?

Maybe you not hear. He get sent into exile for cheeterism.

[molson]

Biden is going to chew up and spit out Frontier Barbie at the VP deabte(s).

Maybe. I have no idea if he's a good debater. Debating is a skill that isn't necessarily connected to being old, experienced, and isn't particularly reflective of one's qualifications regarding anything except debating.

Also pretty interesting to see a socially enlightened liberal be so overtly sexist.

[SteveMax58]

I don't think making continuing tax-breaks for the very wealthy does anything but increase the gap between the haves and the have-nots.

To me it comes down to...do you believe there is a fair pathway to increasing your economic status, and if you do, how hard should one have to work to do this without negating what somebody else's hard work has earned them?

If you do not believe it is a fair pathway(i.e. due to discrimination by race, gender, etc.), then what specifically needs to be in place to change the fairness of that pathway?(rhetorical statement mostly)

I think most economic conservatives(this is my view as well) would argue that capitalism isnt intended for everybody to be rich, or to even be within X% of income/standard of living from the top tier. The point is to have a system that allows for anybody to increase their economic status through hard work, intelligent/informed decisions, and a pathway that does not discriminate against them for traits they were born with, and cannot be expected to change to fit a "system", or the people within that "system". But it does not mean the system should change the non-discriminatory rules for every individual that fails to increase their relative economic status, nor reward those who do not try to adhere to the rules of the system, where they are trying to pursue wealth.

There are certainly arguements that can be made for where and how the "system" is unfair, impossible, or otherwise non-optimal. And where those instances occur, they should be addressed, debated, lobbied for, and changed. But the idea of government, rather than doing their job of creating a fair system, deciding to just take more money from the wealthy to give out more to the poor is not only unfair to those who do adhere to the system...but it simply allows for the continued decline of the poor to perform more valuable services to society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If McCain just get a small portion of the independents (not even the democrats) who voted for Hillary, it could be huge.

And, depending upon which states he gets them from, it could be completely meaningless too.

[flere-imsaho]

the GOP vice-presidential nominee is as experienced as the Democratic presidential nominee

Really? How do you figure? The last relatively undistinguished 18 months aside, her resume rests on part-time experience at a very, very low political level.

but also has executive decision-making that Obama lacks.

Alternatively, she has 18 months of working with a friendly state legislature in a very thinly populated State with no current dire issues (aside from the corruption-related ones being engineered by the state GOP).

Her tough stance on reform of long corrupt practices could give her a very clear advantage over practiced cronyists Obama and Biden.

:lol:

[Arles]

Biden is going to chew up and spit out Frontier Barbie at the VP deabte(s).
Like Al Gore did to W? Expectations are a big thing here and if Palin can pull a draw out of the debates (not too difficult, IMO), she wins big.

[Flasch186]

So, of the four of them, I guess that makes Palin most qualified to be President.

I know youre just pouring Koolaid out and are saying this in jest since she was mayor of a then of less than 10K, governor of Alaska for 2 years earning herself a legislative investigation, etc.

This is all about the pillars of the Religious Right platform, you, I, and everyone else knows it....and that's OK. There is nothing wrong with that. It is what it is and if the people want that than thats great.

To say that she is more qualified to be pres than the other 3 is a very very ridiculous statement.

[SFL Cat]

Really? How do you figure? The last relatively undistinguished 18 months aside, her resume rests on part-time experience at a very, very low political level.



Alternatively, she has 18 months of working with a friendly state legislature in a very thinly populated State with no current dire issues (aside from the corruption-related ones being engineered by the state GOP).



:lol:

Nice spin!!! You sure you don't do this for a living?

I work with a lot of libbies, and most of them are kind of nervous about this choice. Just the simple fact that she is a hottie, especially compared to say Geraldine Ferraro or Hillary Clinton has them worried.

[JPhillips]

You say this:

One could read into this that Obama is more interested in winning the election than sticking to the principles he started his campaign with.

But every positive you point out about Palin is a political consideration.

Here's the positives of adding here:

1. It adds life and interest to a very dull campaign.
2. It reinvigorate the conservatives (both social and fiscal).
3. She has a strong background in business and running a very tricky state (esp from a political standpoint).
4. While many are pointing to her pro-life stance, she will still be very attractive to women (esp independents). Her history as a mom, business woman, governor and her persona will attract some women voters. If McCain just get a small portion of the independents (not even the democrats) who voted for Hillary, it could be huge.
5. She is very likable. Once people listen to here and see her make cases for different ideas, she comes across very well.

[Vegas Vic]

Really? How do you figure? The last relatively undistinguished 18 months aside, her resume rests on part-time experience at a very, very low political level.

Well, she has spent her time in office shaking up government in Alaska and achieving results. Senator Obama has spent the majority of his time in office running for president.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Biden is going to chew up and spit out Frontier Barbie at the VP deabte(s).

I think that Biden stands a good chance of doing well in the VP debate, though given that he's debating against a woman, he could just as easily say something that he doesn't feel is derogatory towards Palin or women, yet it is perceived as being out of line. You always have to have that in the back of your mind with Biden. He's going to have to be very careful to not talk down to her, as it may be perceived by independents and women as being insensitive or being a bully. He wouldn't have had this issue if McCain would have selected a man.

As mentioned before, McCain should trump Obama in their three debates, which would more than offset any Biden gains.

[JPhillips]

Like Al Gore did to W? Expectations are a big thing here and if Palin can pull a draw out of the debates (not too difficult, IMO), she wins big.

Everyone should back off the VP debate. Nobody makes their decision because of the VP debate. It's the rhythmic gymnastics of the election.

[molson]

But every positive you point out about Palin is a political consideration.

But Obama's the one who's about change and being above all that.

[SFL Cat]

I know youre just pouring Koolaid out and are saying this in jest since she was mayor of a then of less than 10K, governor of Alaska for 2 years earning herself a legislative investigation, etc.

This is all about the pillars of the Religious Right platform, you, I, and everyone else knows it....and that's OK. There is nothing wrong with that. It is what it is and if the people want that than thats great.

To say that she is more qualified to be pres than the other 3 is a very very ridiculous statement.

Yeah, mostly in jest....but if a guy can win who's sole claim to fame is that he was governor of a state like Arkansas....who knows! :)

[Deattribution]

Do the people who keep saying that this won't get McCain any of Hilary's votes really believe she had 18 million abortionist voting for her?

A large portion of her vote were women who wanted to see another woman in a position of power. Infact, she probably got more votes from women overlooking the pro-choice than she did women voting for it.


And if nothing else, McCain has made a splash. This thread alone has blown up since, and it's definately made things alot more interesting.

[ace1914]

To me it comes down to...do you believe there is a fair pathway to increasing your economic status, and if you do, how hard should one have to work to do this without negating what somebody else's hard work has earned them?

If you do not believe it is a fair pathway(i.e. due to discrimination by race, gender, etc.), then what specifically needs to be in place to change the fairness of that pathway?(rhetorical statement mostly)

I think most economic conservatives(this is my view as well) would argue that capitalism isnt intended for everybody to be rich, or to even be within X% of income/standard of living from the top tier. The point is to have a system that allows for anybody to increase their economic status through hard work, intelligent/informed decisions, and a pathway that does not discriminate against them for traits they were born with, and cannot be expected to change to fit a "system", or the people within that "system". But it does not mean the system should change the non-discriminatory rules for every individual that fails to increase their relative economic status, nor reward those who do not try to adhere to the rules of the system, where they are trying to pursue wealth.

There are certainly arguements that can be made for where and how the "system" is unfair, impossible, or otherwise non-optimal. And where those instances occur, they should be addressed, debated, lobbied for, and changed. But the idea of government, rather than doing their job of creating a fair system, deciding to just take more money from the wealthy to give out more to the poor is not only unfair to those who do adhere to the system...but it simply allows for the continued decline of the poor to perform more valuable services to society.

Lunchtime. I'll respond in a little bit. Good post by the way.

[Vegas Vic]

Everyone should back off the VP debate. Nobody makes their decision because of the VP debate. It's the rhythmic gymnastics of the election.

Yes, and the McCain campaign also realized that the inexperience factor for Obama wasn't having that much of an effect, just as it ultimately didn't have much effect in the Democratic primaries with Clinton. Of course, with the Palin choice, every Republican in the country who believed that experience was important will no longer think so, and that every Democrat who didn’t think it was a big deal will now decide it is absolutely critical.

[molson]

Alternatively, she has 18 months of working with a friendly state legislature in a very thinly populated State with no current dire issues (aside from the corruption-related ones being engineered by the state GOP).



I think you need to read up on her a little bit (though nothing would ever even temper your opinion).

-She challenged the GOP governor and even defeated him in the primary
-She was not supported by the state GOP - but she won over the people
-She challenged Stevens to come clean about the federal investigation
-Has an approval rating consistently in the 80s and 90s, largely based on her "independent/outsider" views and actions.

Trying to link her with the problems of the Alaska GOP is absolutely ridiculous. Sometimes blind party unity isn't a good thing.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

-Has an approval rating consistently in the 80s and 90s, largely based on her "independent/outsider" views and actions.

This one is especially impressive. She has nearly statewide support in a time period where most state government GOP leaders suffer from low ratings due to the 'Bush Effect'.

[Galaril]

Maybe. I have no idea if he's a good debater. Debating is a skill that isn't necessarily connected to being old, experienced, and isn't particularly reflective of one's qualifications regarding anything except debating.

Also pretty interesting to see a socially enlightened liberal be so overtly sexist.

Sorry, to of offended your feminist underpinnings:) Actually, don't be fooled I "ain't" all that socially enlightened just not a racist (not that anyone here is ). But I guess I am a sexist............and proud of it. jk.

[flere-imsaho]

1) The rich should be rewarded for what they create. They do a lot more than the government

Really? All of the rich? Does Paris Hilton do a lot more than the government? What about the uber-rich (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates) who demonstrably do add a lot to the economy and still think they should be taxed more and/or earn less?

Anyway, the concept that the rich aren't being rewarded is ridiculous. You're basically saying that if you raise taxes on the rich just a little bit they'll have no incentive to work harder to earn more money. That just doesn't make sense and isn't (at least in my experience) the remotest bit true.

Reagan Democrat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Democrat)

Thanks, I knew there was an example, but couldn't think of one immediately. I blame sleep deprivation. :D

But just to inoculate myself, I still think judgment is far more important than experience.

For the record, I've been saying this for a couple of threads now.

Weren't you one of the people who flipped out in the Jon Edwards thread about people stating things as facts when they weren't?

I'm pretty sure that was JPhillips and others, but my memory of events over the past week is pretty hazy.

It's not that hard to give a prepared speech in front of a friendly crowd.

I'm not talking about the crowd, I'm talking about the TV analysts.

I work with a lot of libbies, and most of them are kind of nervous about this choice. Just the simple fact that she is a hottie

No you don't. The left doesn't objectify women like you right-wing fundies do.

Everyone should back off the VP debate. Nobody makes their decision because of the VP debate. It's the rhythmic gymnastics of the election.

Very true. It's always been basically a side show, good for some one-liners or Admiral Stockdale.

[SFL Cat]

No you don't. The left doesn't objectify women like you right-wing fundies do.


I know you can't be serious...

[Galaxy]

I think that Biden stands a good chance of doing well in the VP debate, though given that he's debating against a woman, he could just as easily say something that he doesn't feel is derogatory towards Palin or women, yet it is perceived as being out of line. You always have to have that in the back of your mind with Biden. He's going to have to be very careful to not talk down to her, as it may be perceived by independents and women as being insensitive or being a bully. He wouldn't have had this issue if McCain would have selected a man.

As mentioned before, McCain should trump Obama in their three debates, which would more than offset any Biden gains.

You know, Palin has a rather feminine, intelligent, calm approach about (she's very different than Hillary in her speaking abilities and the ability to present her issues) her. She doesn't seem like she'll throw down like a guy does, but she does seem to have a different kind of charisma and aggression that could work for her.

[molson]

Does Paris Hilton do a lot more than the government?

I think she does.

When she goes out boozing in NYC, it's a financial windfall for bartenders, cab drivers, waiters. Those people than have more money to spend on TVs, playstations, and groceries.

When she pays too much for a house in Malibu, she has to hire dozens of employees to maintain it. If she buys another, bigger house, she needs more employees.

If she buys 10 cars next month that she doesn't need - she might be sole difference between a luxury auto dealership making a profit and not. That might allow them to keep more employees on.

We hear so much about "consumer spending" being the #1 indicator of the health of our economy. Paris Hilton drives that spending, that indicator.

I'm not saying she shouldn't be taxed at a higher rate than other people, but I don't want to curb her spending. The money that goes to the government escapes into a black hole where it benefits nobody. I'm all for providing her tax incentives to consume and invest rather than save.

$10,000 spent in a drunken NYC haze benefits America more than a $10,000 bill to Uncle Sam. That's where I come down in the end.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You know. Palin has a rather feminine, intelligent, calm approach about (she's very different than Hillary in her speaking abilities and ability to present her issues) her. She doesn't seem like she'll throw down like a guy does, but she does seem to have a different kind of charisma and aggression that could work for her.

It's the 'kill them with kindness' situation. She may get beaten from a policy discussion standpoint, but if Biden does nothing but attack and she keeps an even keel, the perception may even out in the end. It's really hard to tell at this point, but I could see that happening. He's going to have to keep his attack levels in check, which has never been his strong point.

[molson]

No you don't. The left doesn't objectify women like you right-wing fundies do.


So, larrymcg421, are you going to go after flere-imsaho now or are you a hypocrite, and your criticisms only apply to conservatives?

[Galaxy]

Really? All of the rich? Does Paris Hilton do a lot more than the government? What about the uber-rich (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates) who demonstrably do add a lot to the economy and still think they should be taxed more and/or earn less?

Anyway, the concept that the rich aren't being rewarded is ridiculous. You're basically saying that if you raise taxes on the rich just a little bit they'll have no incentive to work harder to earn more money. That just doesn't make sense and isn't (at least in my experience) the remotest bit true.



I never said they weren't rewarded. My point is, when is enough? I don't want to take this into the whole tax debate; however, when do we start getting programs that are already in our system and start pushing people to take advantage of them. Just throwing money (and money we don't have) at problems isn't the answer. If Warren Buffet and Bill Gates believe the government can do more, why are they avoiding the estate tax and giving it through the Gates' private charity (free from government corruption, waste, bureaucracy, and politics) tax-free?

Why do people always bring up Paris Hilton instead of other people? As much as I despite her, she does create jobs and revenue through her name and brand.

[molson]

If Warren Buffet and Bill Gates believe the government can do more, why are they avoiding the estate tax and giving it through a the Gates' private charity (free from government corruption, waste, bureaucracy, and politics) tax-free?



Great point, especially with Buffett. One of the smartest financial minds ever knows that the government sucks with money.

Gates' charity does approximately a billion times more good the government would with the equivalent tax revenue.

[albionmoonlight]

Now that the VP picks have happened, it is probably a good time for me to mostly check out of this thread. Not really much going to happen going forward to change anyone's mind or provide new insight now that we are in 100% talking points mode. Nothing here for me but a rise in blood pressure. I'll be around, but for my health and sanity, I'm trying to cut back on political talk across the spectrum until November.

All that said, I have one random comment: the more I read about Sarah Palin, the more I like her personally. Smoked pot. Fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Generally pro-gay rights. Is actually pro-life (as opposed to defaulting to it because it pleases the base).

I'm not a fan of the GOP at all. But there are a lot of disgusting and worthless human beings on the GOP bench that they could have recruited for the VP role, and they didn't. They actually picked someone pretty cool, IMO. Good for them. I want Obama to win the presidency, but I wish governor Palin well.

[Warhammer]

You called that specific?

And that's the BS I'm talking about. There are not 20 new nuclear reactors being built in the US. There have been 20 applications for new reactors. I hate that kind of misleading politics.

So yes you are right, in the fact that:

Just got back in...

Hold on a second. By making a statement, and then laying out a reasonable roadmap for achieving that, that is specific. Look at his budget statement. That makes a lot of sense, and is something well within his power as the president to make happen (it might not, but it is a realistic scenario). His statement about nuclear power is a realistic statement. We're going to have more nukes. Why? Because I will spearhead the effort to cut red tape and make permitting easier? Yeah, that could happen. Even if he falls short of the goal, more efforts in that direction can lead to more power plants.

In short, McCain is listing goals that are achieveable and how he will reach them. Some of his statements are not realistic. How is he realistically going to reduce childhood obesity as a President? Force Congress to sign a law forcing kids to eat their broccoli?

Contrast this to Obama. We'll be off oil in 10 years. We'll make America respected in the world community again. Why? How? While you're at it, why not cure cancer and AIDS? The more I look back at this week, the more and more I think that the convention climaxed with the Clintons' speeches and not with Obama's. Plus the fact that McCain's naming of the a running mate is dominating the news today, and I'm not sure that Obama is not in deep trouble, which is the first time I have felt that way this year.

[Vegas Vic]

I'm not a fan of the GOP at all. But there are a lot of disgusting and worthless human beings on the GOP bench that they could have recruited for the VP role, and they didn't. They actually picked someone pretty cool, IMO. Good for them. I want Obama to win the presidency, but I wish governor Palin well.

Leaving politics out of it, I have to say this is a remarkable and proud time for our country when you take a look at the four people on the tickets of the two major political parties.

[larrymcg421]

No you don't. The left doesn't objectify women like you right-wing fundies do.

Huh?

[MikeVic]

Hey now, let's get back on track. Attractive or somewhat attractive women in politics.

[Warhammer]

For those of you who think that McCain picked Palin solely on her gender; she is is the youngest governor in Alaska history and she was elected largely on the issue of ethics reform, one of McCain's longtime caucuses. During her time in the governor's mansion, Palin has also fought "pork barrel spending," another top McCain issue.

The more I find out about her, the more that McCain might turn this into a huge plus for him.

She can play to education since her dad was a teacher. Supposedly her husband and she were union workers. That could play well with Regan Democrats and your middle class union worker. She can play well with women, being one herself. She should fare well with soccer moms since she has five kids, etc., etc.

Plus, as governor of the state of Alaska, she should know something about oil, I would hope. If I was McCain, I would announce that I would give incentives and open up the rockies oil shale, use that tax dollars generated from those efforts and mandate that those dollars should be used to fund research and development of alternative fuels and energy sources.

[JPhillips]

The more I find out about her, the more that McCain might turn this into a huge plus for him.

She can play to education since her dad was a teacher. Supposedly her husband and she were union workers. That could play well with Regan Democrats and your middle class union worker. She can play well with women, being one herself. She should fare well with soccer moms since she has five kids, etc., etc.

Plus, as governor of the state of Alaska, she should know something about oil, I would hope. If I was McCain, I would announce that I would give incentives and open up the rockies oil shale, use that tax dollars generated from those efforts and mandate that those dollars should be used to fund research and development of alternative fuels and energy sources.

She could also appeal to people with two legs and those that have or want hair. The VP pick just doesn't matter this much.

[Warhammer]

So what do conservatives think can help alleviate or help those less fortunate?

The US is a capitalist society. Those that are on top have made their money by providing a good or service to a large amount of people. This applies from McDonald's to Walmart, actors to drug dealers. The point is that if the bottom economic rungs of society do better, the top will do better.

Do conservative see that?

First, America needs to rediscover personal responsibility. You are responsible for maintaining your home. You are responsible for managing your money. You are responsible for how you react to the world around you. Etc., etc.

Second, we need to re-establish family values. Where I am from, most of the people that are from single family homes wind up in bad situations. (Just for the record, this is something that is not a government issue, it is a societal issue) We need to figure out some way to encourage people to have a stable home environment for their children. We have to restore ethical values (I am a big believer in some universal truths).

Third, we need to realize in this country that not everyone is cut out for college and encourage people to go to trade schools. We also need to improve our trade schools because many of the people that I have run across from the schools down here were not worth crap. I'm talking about machinists who couldn't read a ruler or tape measure type of stuff.

Finally, we need to revamp our public school system. It is absolute crap. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful kindergarten teacher for my son. Unfortunately, what happens in first grade? They put many of the smart kids in a class with a second year teacher. Bless her heart she is nice. But she does not yet know how to challenge students. The result is that my child is not getting the most out of his education. He can do better, but he is not challenged at all. Compared to last year when his teacher repeatedly challenged him to write and sing songs. The result is that he is used to performing in front of his peers, his hand writing is excellent for his age, and he has a great creative side as far as making up music. (But he doesn't want to be a rock star because then he would have to smoke)

Another thing regarding education is make ethics and civics classes mandatory. Additionally, we need to show kids why they need to develop skills.

But, all that said, we still need trash collectors, janitors, etc. We need to make unskilled labor more profitable so that people will work in those jobs rather than sit on their ass, which I see all too often about a mile from where I live.

[GabeRivers]

I don't post much, but I've long enjoyed reading this forum. I'm particularly reluctant to dive into the political debates, although I recognize and applaud the general civility of those who are engaged in this thread.

However, I found McCain's pick of Palin to be a brilliant move. Risky -- certainly. But all the VP front runners from either party were open to attack for various reasons. This lady brings a lot to the table, and it doesn't hurt to old guys like me that she's easy on the eye. :)

I do have a question (which is the real reason for posting). I've read several of you argue that the Palin choice will not attract HRC's women supporters because Palin is pro-life. I've now heard several Dem TV pundits voice this same position.

Is that really logical? I think those making this argument are whistling through the graveyard.

Polls have said that 21% of the PUMAs were saying they were going to vote for McCain -- and this was obviously before the Palin pick.

McCain is staunchly pro-life, and has been forcefully voicing that position. If PUMAs were saying they were voting for McCain before Palin, isn't it more logical to suggest his position with the PUMAs will now be strengthened by the addition of Palin to the ticket? I mean, do you really think they're going to be saying "well, I could stomach him being pro-life, but not her too"?

[JPhillips]

By November I just don't think the PUMA types will number enough to matter. The bigger issue will be blue collar Dems that are up for grabs in the industrial midwest. I think the strengths of both VPs are being overhyped. In the end it won't make a bit of difference as we'll see very little of them between now and November.

[Big Fo]

Yes, but she didn't enjoy it, which causes me to seriously question her judgment.

How about that fact that she named her kids Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper, and Trig?

[Warhammer]

The VP pick just doesn't matter this much.

But I thought the Biden pick for Obama was huge? I guess that doesn't matter much either?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Smoked pot. Fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Generally pro-gay rights.

FTR, I'm not picking on albion one bit here, not even opening up any of these particular things for discussion ... but, taking them as written as all basically true since I definitely haven't looked them up yet, I'm going to quote them as a lead into something else.

Up the thread a bit, there was a comment (and I don't entirely disagree fwiw) that this choice was basically meant to play to the religious right of the GOP base as much as anything else.

Then I read the quoted snippet ... leaving me thinking "Huh? WTF?"

Buffy might be overlooked but the other two don't exactly strike me as playing well with the religious right element of the GOP. And, again just taking these for accurate for discussion purposes, I start to wonder if she might ultimately cost the ticket as many votes from the base as it gains the ticket from outside the base.

Unless of course my usual position still holds & the unhappy parts of the party are still going to make sure they vote against Obama no matter what.
In which case, no harm done I guess.

[JPhillips]

But I thought the Biden pick for Obama was huge? I guess that doesn't matter much either?

Just because someone else may have said this doesn't mean I did. No, neither VP pick will matter much.

[Deattribution]

FTR, I'm not picking on albion one bit here, not even opening up any of these particular things for discussion ... but, taking them as written as all basically true since I definitely haven't looked them up yet, I'm going to quote them as a lead into something else.

Up the thread a bit, there was a comment (and I don't entirely disagree fwiw) that this choice was basically meant to play to the religious right of the GOP base as much as anything else.

Then I read the quoted snippet ... leaving me thinking "Huh? WTF?"

Buffy might be overlooked but the other two don't exactly strike me as playing well with the religious right element of the GOP. And, again just taking these for accurate for discussion purposes, I start to wonder if she might ultimately cost the ticket as many votes from the base as it gains the ticket from outside the base.

Unless of course my usual position still holds & the unhappy parts of the party are still going to make sure they vote against Obama no matter what.
In which case, no harm done I guess.

She is against gay marriage (in fact, Alaska was one of the first states to ban gay marriage, and she supported it), but open to other benefits for them I believe. So I don't think it will cost her much of any affiliation in that area.

[JPhillips]

FTR, I'm not picking on albion one bit here, not even opening up any of these particular things for discussion ... but, taking them as written as all basically true since I definitely haven't looked them up yet, I'm going to quote them as a lead into something else.

Up the thread a bit, there was a comment (and I don't entirely disagree fwiw) that this choice was basically meant to play to the religious right of the GOP base as much as anything else.

Then I read the quoted snippet ... leaving me thinking "Huh? WTF?"

Buffy might be overlooked but the other two don't exactly strike me as playing well with the religious right element of the GOP. And, again just taking these for accurate for discussion purposes, I start to wonder if she might ultimately cost the ticket as many votes from the base as it gains the ticket from outside the base.

Unless of course my usual position still holds & the unhappy parts of the party are still going to make sure they vote against Obama no matter what.
In which case, no harm done I guess.

I think her staunch pro-life and creationist stances outweigh everything else when it comes to the CHristian Right. As far as I can tell everyone from that faction is thrilled with the pick.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think her staunch pro-life and creationist stances outweigh everything else when it comes to the CHristian Right. As far as I can tell everyone from that faction is thrilled with the pick.

I guess what I'm wondering is how many of them know about the other points yet? (each was definitely news to me I'll admit)

[timmynausea]

Personally, I'm wondering where she stands on Angel and Firefly.

[MikeVic]

What's wrong with liking Buffy?

[larrymcg421]

The "Clinton Democrats" are a pretty varied bunch. Palin could appeal to the blue collar voters that were as much anti-Obama as they were pro-Clinton. These people will likely have more conservative social views and a good portion of them are pro-life. However, she has no chance at nabbing pro-choice women, even the ones who are moderate. I don't think her gender is going to play as big a role as people think.

[JPhillips]

I guess what I'm wondering is how many of them know about the other points yet? (each was definitely news to me I'll admit)

I don't know. IMO, though, with groups like this on both the right and left the biggest issue is if they're "one of us". McCain can lay out all the Christian Right policies he wants, but he'll never be, "one of us". Palin is considered "one of us" at least to the leaders of the Christian Right. She'll probably lose a few people over the witch thing, but not enough to matter.

The two things I think will be positive from this pick will be that she'll energize the Christian Right on election day which may boost turnout and she got the media to stop talking about Obama's speech.

[larrymcg421]

I'd like to know what role Palin played in the scandal on Miranda. Did she know anything about the project? If so, did she do anything to stop it? I mean, she sounds like she'll be pretty tough against the reavers but that doesn't mean much to me if she helped create them.

[MikeVic]

I'd like to know what role Palin plaid in the scandal on Miranda. Did she know anything about the project? If so, did she do anything to stop it? I mean, she sounds like she'll be pretty tough against the reavers but that doesn't mean much to me if she helped create them.

I had to read this twice. :D

[Anthony]

she is incredibly hot for a politician. i can't even think of anything else when i look at her, what a naughty librarian look she has. caliente!

i'm pro-choice and anti-gay marriage and anti-illegal aliens and anti-big government, i don't even know what that makes me in terms of liberal/conservative. isn't there a website that you answer a couple questions and it lets you know where you fall in the political spectrum.

[Young Drachma]

she is incredibly hot for a politician. i can't even think of anything else when i look at her, what a naughty librarian look she has. caliente!

i'm pro-choice and anti-gay marriage and anti-illegal aliens and anti-big government, i don't even know what that makes me in terms of liberal/conservative. isn't there a website that you answer a couple questions and it lets you know where you fall in the political spectrum.


World's Smallest Political Quiz (http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html)

There are tons of others, of course.

[Arles]

You say this:
But every positive you point out about Palin is a political consideration.
I didn't say naming Palin wasn't a political calculation from McCain as well. But, atleast she fits his "theme" (reformer, goes against the Washington machine, a maverick type politician).

All I've heard from the left on Obama is how he's different and not the normal politician. Yet, from his funding (mostly high-dollar special interests), to his agenda (party line democrat agenda), to his partisanship (very little "across the aisle" efforts in the senate), to his VP candidate (35-year Washington guy) say that he is exactly the same as McCain, Clinton and everyone else that runs.


But just to inoculate myself, I still think judgment is far more important than experience.
So, then, you would say that the judgment a VP candidate showed when he voted against the original Iraq war in the early 90s, for the current Iraq war and setup a plan to split up Iraq into three sectors is more important than his 30+ years in the senate of experience, correct?

[larrymcg421]

World's Smallest Political Quiz (http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html)

There are tons of others, of course.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=3

[MikeVic]

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 70%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%.

I'm LEFT.

[Scarecrow]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=7&e=10

Sitting on the edge with Uncle Milty! (Friedman that is)

[JPhillips]

Arles: Do you think you'll really nail me here? Sure, Biden's made bad decisions including IMO the bankruptcy bill. Obama's made bad decisions as well. DOes that make you happy? I've never tried to argue that Obama is perfect, he's just more in line with what I think is important than McCain.

As to your specific points, I haven't looked, but Obama probably has more money from high dollar bundlers, but he also has far more total donors than any candidate ever has and a lower per donor amount than any nominee. There's too much money in the system IMO, but it's simply fact that Obama has gotten more people at smaller dollar amounts involved than anyone else ever has.

Obama does have more than "very little" bipartisan achievements. He's worked with Republicans and the Independent Democrat on a number of bills.

With Dick Lugar on securing Russian nukes and pandemic preparation

With Joe Lieberman on protecting taxpayer privacy

With Tom Coburn on lobbying reform and no-bid FEMA contracts and making public all government contracts

With Olympia Snow on Veterans Health Care

These may not be the issues you think he should work with Republicans on, but he has a record of working with Republicans when interests align.

I agree that he is another politician, and I'm not likely to see half of the things done I'd like. Obama, though, is a guy I think can push us in the right direction and maybe pull off something big. I'm not looking for rainbows and bunny rabbits, just a President that has priorities more in line with my own.

[Radii]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=7&e=7


In more in depth "quizzes" like these I always end up moving over to the democrat/edge of libertarian/democrat side of things.

[Alan T]

Pretty much scored exactly where I figured:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=7&e=4

[Galaril]

The "Clinton Democrats" are a pretty varied bunch. Palin could appeal to the blue collar voters that were as much anti-Obama as they were pro-Clinton. These people will likely have more conservative social views and a good portion of them are pro-life. However, she has no chance at nabbing pro-choice women, even the ones who are moderate. I don't think her gender is going to play as big a role as people think.

Aka bitter bigoted women factory worker types you mean.

[DaddyTorgo]

alan - that's right about where I scored, except I was slightly more in towards the center (not on the edge of he box)

[larrymcg421]

Aka bitter bigoted women factory worker types you mean.

No, that's not what I mean. Nice try, though.

[molson]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=9&e=9

I don't feel this hardcore libertarian, but hopefully it provides context to my ramblings in this thread.

[Galaril]

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=6&e=2

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 60%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%.

According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...



LIBERALS usually embrace freedom of choice in personal

matters, but tend to support significant government control of the

economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net"
to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation

of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations,

defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action

to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.

Wow who would of thought I am born raised from Massacusetts and score as a liberal. I still think I fall more to the center but that quiz is rather short and generalized in nature.

[Arles]

Here's mine:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=7&e=9

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 70%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 90%.

[Noop]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=7&e=5


CENTRISTS espouse a "middle ground" regarding government control of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on the issue, they sometimes favor government intervention and sometimes support individual freedom of choice.
Centrists pride themselves on keeping an open mind,
tend to oppose "political extremes," and emphasize what
they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.

[Noop]

I didn't know I was a centrist although I do lean to the left alittle bit. I am still in favor of a third major party for moderates.

[Kodos]

Cut taxes and government spending by 50% or more

I didn't like this question. I support cutting spending, but I don't support cutting taxes until our national deficit is gone.

[JPhillips]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=5

I want more nuance in the questions, but pretty much where I would expect. Libertarian on social issues and more liberal on economic issues.

[Alan T]

alan - that's right about where I scored, except I was slightly more in towards the center (not on the edge of he box)

I scored as a centrist, but I think it had me a bit more liberal than where I really am because of the type of questions asked and how they were asked. They didn't ask anything to do with some of my more conservative leanings either. I bet a more in depth quiz woudl have me a notch or two to the right or up where I am closer to the center and a little bit closer to libertarian as well I bet.

[Arles]

Arles: Do you think you'll really nail me here? Sure, Biden's made bad decisions including IMO the bankruptcy bill. Obama's made bad decisions as well. DOes that make you happy? I've never tried to argue that Obama is perfect, he's just more in line with what I think is important than McCain.
My point is that Biden's "experience" is often on the wrong side of history. It would be like McCain bringing on Jimmy Carter as a VP for his economic fiscal policy.

As to your specific points, I haven't looked, but Obama probably has more money from high dollar bundlers, but he also has far more total donors than any candidate ever has and a lower per donor amount than any nominee. There's too much money in the system IMO, but it's simply fact that Obama has gotten more people at smaller dollar amounts involved than anyone else ever has.
The bolded part is the point. As a parallel, think of a republican candidate who rails on people who use pot and then gets caught smoking it. Most people don't have a huge problem with someone smoking pot, but because he railed so vehemently against it - it shows a great deal of hypocrisy to use it.

Obama constantly stated early on how Washington insiders were in the pocket of lobbyists and special interests and how public finance was the answer and he was going to change thigns. Then, when a ton of people (and lobbyists and special interests) wanted to support him, he quickly changed his tune and went private financing, gladly taking the big checks from special interests.

Obama does have more than "very little" bipartisan achievements. He's worked with Republicans and the Independent Democrat on a number of bills.

With Dick Lugar on securing Russian nukes and pandemic preparation

With Joe Lieberman on protecting taxpayer privacy

With Tom Coburn on lobbying reform and no-bid FEMA contracts and making public all government contracts

With Olympia Snow on Veterans Health Care
The problem here is that the republicans here agreed with the democrat agenda. There wasn't any "compromise" from Obama, just a few fairly liberal republicans (or democrats in Lieberman's case) joining on. McCain atleast has shown some compromise on things like campaign finance, tax reform, education, health care, immigration and energy. In fact, I wish on some he would not have compromised. Still, I can't think of any issue where Obama went "centrist" to get a bill passed. It's either you join him or he votes against it. Again, much like with the special interests, the fact that he is like that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is this picture of a "enabler" he has created when his actions in the senate are just the opposite.

I agree that he is another politician, and I'm not likely to see half of the things done I'd like. Obama, though, is a guy I think can push us in the right direction and maybe pull off something big. I'm not looking for rainbows and bunny rabbits, just a President that has priorities more in line with my own.
Hey, Obama has some ambitious policy plans and if you agree with them I can understand why you want to support him. My issue is that not only do I not agree with many of them, but he has done nothing to show me that he can cultivate the support (either through persuasion or compromise) to get the ideas I do support through congress. As much as McCain has frustrated me on numerous issues, he has atleast been able to accomplish things that many did not think possible through compromise/persuasion.

So, if you like the concept of someone bringing reps and dems together to get things done, I think the records of McCain and Obama are stark contrasts from a results standpoint (to the frustration of many conservatives in McCain's case).

[sabotai]

I don't feel this hardcore libertarian, but hopefully it provides context to my ramblings in this thread.

I'm more hardcore than you. :p

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=10

[JPhillips]

I'm fine with disagreements on policy, and I'm fine with believing that McCain will be a better President. I think some of your criticism of Obama applies equally to McCain and using those points is a way to cover up the real issues.

I do want to touch on the idea of bringing people together. First, as a snarky aside, if you want to say the Democratic agenda is securing Russian nukes, pandemic preparation, protecting taxpayer privacy, lobbying reform, regulating no-bid FEMA contracts, making public all government contracts, and Veterans Health Care, I think the Dems would pll at 70% or higher. Also, Tom Coburn would be a little upset at being called liberal.

The bigger point, though, is that I rarely agree with a splitting the difference approach to policy. I'm all for trading components, say ANWR drilling for higher CAFE standards, but trying to always find a middle ground doesn't accomplish anything IMO. I prefer politicians that have convictions and work with opponents where those convictions meet. Bipartisanship to achieve common goals is great, but bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship isn't worth much if you ask me.

[Swaggs]

This feels like a panic move to me by McCain.

It makes me wonder if he decided, after absorbing the Demmy convention, that he didn't like his choice of finalists (presumably Romney and Pawlenty) and decided to make a gut choice. I also wonder if Palin was his first ("gut") choice or if he may have put a feeler out for someone like Kay Bailey Hutchinson and she was not interested.

Overall, I think Palin will probably be a pretty neutral/non-factor in this election.

[SackAttack]

Cut taxes and government spending by 50% or more

I didn't like this question. I support cutting spending, but I don't support cutting taxes until our national deficit is gone.

Weirdly phrased.

Although, considering that the site is run by "Advocates for self-government," probably to be expected.

I was surprised by my score:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=8

Not by the libertarian, but by the idea of being a slightly left-of-center libertarian.

[VPI97]

I'd like to know what role Palin played in the scandal on Miranda. Did she know anything about the project? If so, did she do anything to stop it? I mean, she sounds like she'll be pretty tough against the reavers but that doesn't mean much to me if she helped create them.
Awesome.

[ace1914]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=9&e=4

[SFL Cat]

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg38/sflcat/draw.png

What a shocker! :p

[VPI97]

What a shocker! :p
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=5&e=8

Hi neighbor!

[Greyroofoo]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=5

[Greyroofoo]

I kind of think Palin was a good choice. From what I've heard early on, she could solidify McCain's base and maybe draw some Hillary supporters who just wanted to see the first female president.

[lungs]

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug08/palin3083008.jpg

Look at the size of that flag pin! Nobody can question her patriotism.

[Buccaneer]

It is very heartening to see a majority falling in or near the Libertarian grid. There has to be something to that, you know?

[albionmoonlight]

correction of my earlier post. Apparently, the Buffy the Vampire slayer thing was a rumor. Her kid is named Willow, but not based on the character from the show.

Don't know if that'll change anyone's vote or not.

[Karlifornia]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=9&e=5

[Buccaneer]

As far as the VP, I think it was almost a process of elimination. Pawlenty and Romney would have been duds. A pro-choice VP was out of the question. And Huckabee was too kooky to be seriously considered. There's the old white guys (like Guiliani, Ridge) but those are out of the question too. That left with Jindal but he's busy. Had to go with a bold/risk choice that appeals to the conservative base.

Personally, I think she brings an interesting dynamic to the race as well. But as I said a little while ago, it has become too partisan to have fun.

[Buccaneer]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=10

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[larrymcg421]

It is very heartening to see a majority falling in or near the Libertarian grid. There has to be something to that, you know?

The "something to that" is that it's a test designed by libertarians.

[Buccaneer]

The "something to that" is that it's a test designed by libertarians.

Nothing wrong with that. :)

[Greyroofoo]

It is very heartening to see a majority falling in or near the Libertarian grid. There has to be something to that, you know?

But unless its with their voting records, it's kind of a moot point.

[ISiddiqui]

From Time.com:

Why McCain Picked Palin - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837510,00.html/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837492,00.html)

John McCain needs to persuade swing voters that he's willing to take on the Republican establishment. He needs to persuade conservatives that he isn't squishy about social issues. And he needs to close the gender gap. When you think about it, the real surprise about Sarah Palin's selection as his running mate is that it's such a surprise.

Palin may be an obscure 44-year-old first-term governor and mother of five from tiny Wasilla, Alaska, but in many ways she reinforces John McCain's narrative of a maverick conservative crusader. She's risen to power by battling corruption in her own state's Republican establishment, exposing misconduct by the state GOP chairman and challenging the incumbent GOP governor. She's a committed Christian who's pro-life in practice as well as in theory; she recently gave birth to a son that she knew would have Down Syndrome.

But Palin can help McCain through biography as well as resume. She'll be the first woman on a Republican ticket, which the campaign is surely hoping will appeal to Hillary Clinton voters and help reduce Barack Obama's advantage among women. She's a fresh face to counteract Obama's message of change, and she's about as far outside the Beltway as you can get. A child of the middle class with a friendly face and big hair, she is so affable that she once won Miss Congeniality in a beauty pageant. Her son is about to deploy to Iraq. She's an ice fisherman, a moose hunter, a small business owner and a lifetime NRA member. And she shelved her state's pork-laden Bridge to Nowhere that McCain has ridiculed on the trail.

One more point in her favor: In the topsy-turvy election of 2008, the Last Frontier is actually a battleground state — and Palin is Alaska's most popular politician.

There are certainly risks to the choice. Palin's presence will make it awkward for McCain to harp on Obama's inexperience, much less play that attack-dog role herself. She's only served as governor one month longer than Obama's been running for president, and she's argued that her youth helped her clean out corruption in Juneau, echoing an Obama talking point. "The age issue, I think, was more significant in my career than the gender issue; your resume isn't as fat as your opponent's, that kind of thing," Palin told TIME last month. "I don't have 30 years of political experience under my belt but that's a good thing. I've never been part of a good-ol'-boys club."

A journalism major from the University of Idaho, Palin started her political career in 1992 as a Wasilla city councilor. She was elected to the first of her two terms as mayor in 1996, and earned a reputation as "Sarah Barracuda" -- also her nickname as a feisty point guard on her high school basketball team -- for taking on entrenched bureaucrats. After running a strong race for lieutenant governor as an unknown in 2002, she made her mark on Alaska politics as a commissioner of a state oil and gas commission, when she tried to expose GOP officials with improper ties to the industry, and eventually resigned in 2004 after her complaints were ignored.

Palin challenged Governor Frank Murkowski in the Republican primary, and crushed the incumbent on a platform of change and reform. She then defeated the formidable former governor Tony Knowles in the general. But it's a long leap from Juneau to the White House. It's not clear what Palin thinks about foreign policy or many other national issues, though she has criticized the lack of a long-term plan for Iraq. And the top consideration for any candidate for the number-two job is readiness for the number-one job, an issue that may weigh more on voters' minds when the potential number one has just turned 72 years old.

Meanwhile, Palin's strong support for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge will contrast with McCain's muted opposition; she's said she expects McCain to change his mind on the issue, which will create an awkward dynamic no matter what he does. She also surprised Alaska's conservatives by vetoing a bill that would have denied state benefits to same-sex couples (though that might help her appeal to less socially conservative independents). Her profile as a good government crusader may not be such an easy sell, either. She was endorsed in an ad by Senator Ted Stevens, who is now under indictment in a Republican corruption scandal. And she's already embroiled in a mini-scandal that's under investigation by the state senate; Palin's former public safety director has claimed he was fired because he refused to fire a state trooper who was involved in a custody dispute with her sister.

Still, Palin boasts an 80% approval rating. She lived the first three months of her life in Idaho, but Alaskans clearly see this self-described "hockey mom" as one of them, a former Miss Wasilla who worked as a TV sports announcer and helping to run a commercial fishing business before entering politics. Her husband, Todd Palin, is part native Eskimo who works in the oil fields in addition to his fishing business, and is also a champion snowmobiler known in Alaska as the First Dude. In a state where Big Oil is king, Palin has been a staunch drilling supporter while maintaining her independence from the industry. And she impressed a lot of conservative Christians when she carried her son Trig to term despite his genetic tests indicating Down Syndrome. "I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection," she said after returning to work.

Politically, in a year where the Republican brand is so tarnished, Palin will help McCain make the case that he's a different kind of Republican. It might be his best shot to be America's First Dude.

I think that Palin was a brilliant choice. High risk, high reward. But it reinforces McCain's ethical reform image.

[molson]

But unless its with their voting records, it's kind of a moot point.

But who should we vote for?

[Buccaneer]

But unless its with their voting records, it's kind of a moot point.

I think it is a matter of educating and advocating libertarian ideals to the voting population, and encouraging those elected or wanting to be elected to not go along with more government growth and the increasing of federal powers.

[Arles]

I like David Gergen and find him one of the more well-reasoned analysts on CNN. But, on the Campbell Brown show, he just said that a big negative for Palin is that she's pro-life and a member of the NRA and won't bring as many pro-choice Hillary voters as Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Wow, there's no way he can think Hutchinson would have been a better VP pick. She may be the only US senator that makes McCain look young and vibrant. Plus, if the abortion issue is your main concern, would you really have gone for McCain anyway? He could have added the 1970-version of "Jane Roe" as his VP and those people still would have not voted for a McCain ticket. The more I listen to all these pro-democrat beltway analysts bash this pick, the more I think it was a very strong pick. It also helps that I lobbied for her a few weeks back in this thread ;)

[larrymcg421]

I like David Gergen and find him one of the more well-reasoned analysts on CNN. But, on the Campbell Brown show, he just said that a big negative for Palin is that she's pro-life and a member of the NRA and won't bring as many pro-choice Hillary voters as Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Wow, there's no way he can think Hutchinson would have been a better VP pick. She may be the only US senator that makes McCain look young and vibrant. Plus, if the abortion issue is your main concern, would you really have gone for McCain anyway? He could have added the 1970-version of "Jane Roe" as his VP and those people still would have not voted for a McCain ticket. The more I listen to all these pro-democrat beltway analysts bash this pick, the more I think it was a very strong pick. It also helps that I lobbied for her a few weeks back in this thread ;)

David Gergen. Pro-Democrat. Malfunction. Need input. Need input.

[timmynausea]

Wow, there's no way he can think Hutchinson would have been a better VP pick. She may be the only US senator that makes McCain look young and vibrant.

That would be the last thing his campaign would want. :)

[Arles]

David Gergen. Pro-Democrat. Malfunction. Need input. Need input.
That's true. I should have said "pro-Obama". Not all the beltway crew that's in favor of Obama support the democrat rank and file. Thanks for the correction!

As I said earlier, I do like Gergen, but he can't possibly believe what he said above. To put it in another light, if someone stated that his political future was staked to either Palin or Hutchinson as the VP, there's no way he would choose ole' Kay Bailey. He's too politically savvy to do that.

[Big Fo]

haha, someone already registered vpilf.com

[JonInMiddleGA]

Finished reading the Time article, then did some additional reading.
I didn't think it would be likely but now I'm even less enthused about the ticket than I was before. Sigh.

[adubroff]

Great point, especially with Buffett. One of the smartest financial minds ever knows that the government sucks with money.

Gates' charity does approximately a billion times more good the government would with the equivalent tax revenue.

Buffet is an Obama fundraiser/backer by the way, so I wouldn't make this assumption....

Warren Buffet Backs Obama For President (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/19/warren-buffet-backs-obama_n_102451.html)

[flere-imsaho]

I know you can't be serious...

Neither are you "libbie" friends. See? You're learning.

So, larrymcg421, are you going to go after flere-imsaho now or are you a hypocrite, and your criticisms only apply to conservatives?

Huh?

Apparently I missed the sarcasm tags for you guys.... :lol:

I had to read this twice. :D

Same here, but once I did, it was full of win! :D

[Crapshoot]

Finished reading the Time article, then did some additional reading.
I didn't think it would be likely but now I'm even less enthused about the ticket than I was before. Sigh.

I know you're pretty strongly pro-choice, but I didn't think you cared enough for it to be a make/break issue. Is it the lack of experience?

[Anthony]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=8&e=6

[Young Drachma]

hmm..same spot as usual for me...

[Young Drachma]

How do you all feel about her having a kid that's less than a year old and she's trying to get elected Veep? I mean, I know she's an independent woman and stuff. But 5 kids, with a working husband? How is that going to connect? Especially a newborn with a disability?

When she got off stage today, did anyone notice that she didn't even acknowledge the kid? Apparently one the daughters? was carrying the kid or maybe it was a babysitter...but that's gotta be traumatic for a newborn for a crowd of that many people.

Though it was a McCain rally, so at least it's not like an Obama rock show.

But I wondered legit about how that's going to play. I listened to talk radio on the way to Chicago this evening and it seems the right wing pundits love the pick, while wingbats like Michael Savage hate the pick because it kills whatever McCain advantage over Obama vis a vis experience.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But I wondered legit about how that's going to play.

FWIW, my wife mentioned that point with a very disapproving tone within the first hour of the pick being announced.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know you're pretty strongly pro-choice, but I didn't think you cared enough for it to be a make/break issue. Is it the lack of experience?

The experience thing bugs the hell out of me and I believe it was a poorly thought out giveaway of the #1 factor in McCain's favor (or more specifically the overwhelming reason I don't want Obama anywhere near the White House except with a tour group). But that's not what shoved me so far back today.

I've already had to swallow hard to deal with RINO McCain. Getting stuck with a governor who vetoed the blockage of non-married partner benefits legislation is damned near too much for me to stomach frankly. And yes, I read the deeper background & her reasoning behind the decision & while that makes it less offensive, it still ultimately plays to me like a bad call. Bordering on unforgivably bad.

Between McCain's weakness on immigration and this, I'm starting to wonder again if it really makes much difference which party presides over ... well, I'm bordering on a real rant here so I'll stop there.

[lighthousekeeper]

The "something to that" is that it's a test designed by libertarians.

+100

This isn't a quiz - it's a cleverly designed tool used to influence people into identifying themselves as libertarian. The questions couldn't be more biased towards libertarian ideals. To score as a conservative in that quiz, iyou'd have to: (1) want to abolish sex for adults (2) want the gov't to "censor speech..." (3) reinstate the draft...

[Alan T]

+100

This isn't a quiz - it's a cleverly designed tool used to influence people into identifying themselves as libertarian. The questions couldn't be more biased towards libertarian ideals. To score as a conservative in that quiz, iyou'd have to: (1) want to abolish sex for adults (2) want the gov't to "censor speech..." (3) reinstate the draft...


You say that like those are bad ideas????

[Buccaneer]

A local blogger is getting nationwide attention as he had been promoting Palin for VP since early 2007

Brickley's first post for his online blog, Draft Sarah Palin For Vice President (www.palinforvp.blogspot.com), said he was "considerably less than thrilled" with other possible VP candidates being tossed around. Assuming former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani would win the GOP nomination, he figured the perfect running mate would be: "a(n) energetic, young, fresh face who will energize the electorate, not connected to the current administration, pro-life, pro-gun, a woman or minority to counter Hillary or Obama and put to rest the idea that America only elects white males."

After some research, Brickley concluded Palin fit the description. He filed frequent updates to the blog, often noting Palin's appearances in the media and going out of his way to note he has no connection to the governor. Some blog posts attracted hundreds of comments from readers, and it inspired others to start Web pages along the same lines.

[SFL Cat]

As I said earlier, I do like Gergen, but he can't possibly believe what he said above. To put it in another light, if someone stated that his political future was staked to either Palin or Hutchinson as the VP, there's no way he would choose ole' Kay Bailey. He's too politically savvy to do that.

Not to mention that I've heard McCain and Kay Bailey can't stand each other.

[Toddzilla]

With all due respect again to Governor Palin, she’s been a governor for two years, she’s been able but undistinguished. I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that she’s done. She was mayor of the 10,500th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Wasilla, Alaska it’s smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona; north Las Vegas or Henderson, Nevada. It’s not a big town. So if he were to pick Governor Palin, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States?

Who said it?

No one, actually - but if you replace Sarah Palin with Tim Kaine - it's Karl Rove.

[flere-imsaho]

Palin was for the "Bridge to Nowhere" before she was against it. (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx)

[Apathetic Lurker]

But who should we vote for?

Hell , thats easy..the geriatric and the hot chick!

[Recoil]

Is there going to be a "None of the Above" choice on Nov 4th?

[SFL Cat]

Palin was for the "Bridge to Nowhere" before she was against it. (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx)

DNC is already faxing out its talking points? Cool! :p

[SFL Cat]

Hell , thats easy..the geriatric and the hot chick!


heh...

Choice No 1. Geriatric and the Hot Chick

Choice No 2. Empty Suit and the Motormouth

Choce No 3. None of the Above

[panerd]

Bill Mahar tonight (paraphrasing): Palin was the mayor of Wissilla, Alaska. That's who we want at a time in crisis, when she got the call at 3 in the morning it was because a moose had gotten into the trash can.

[JPhillips]

Good Lord, I know this is supposed to be a joke, but no damn wonder McCain brought in a new team of advisors.

“She’s going to learn national security at the foot of the master for the next four years, and most doctors think that he’ll be around at least that long,” said Charlie Black

edit: Although his new team may be just as bad. It sounds like Palin may have a deposition soon over the trooper firing and a report on the matter is scheduled to be released in early November.

[DaddyTorgo]

OMG JPhillips - that is WAYYYYYYYYYYYY too funny.

Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would feel comfortable having her just one misfire of a 72 year-old heart away from being in charge of the most powerful and complicated nation in the world. She is so completely unqualified for that, it's shocking.

[SFL Cat]

OMG JPhillips - that is WAYYYYYYYYYYYY too funny.

Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would feel comfortable having her just one misfire of a 72 year-old heart away from being in charge of the most powerful and complicated nation in the world. She is so completely unqualified for that, it's shocking.

Funny...as has been pointed out, of the four, she has more executive experience than ANY of the other candidates.

I'm assuming since Obama made his European rock tour, you now consider him a qualified foreign affairs expert.

[Warhammer]

OMG JPhillips - that is WAYYYYYYYYYYYY too funny.

Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would feel comfortable having her just one misfire of a 72 year-old heart away from being in charge of the most powerful and complicated nation in the world. She is so completely unqualified for that, it's shocking.

So why is Obama more qualified than her? At least she has actually run a state. That is more than Obama can claim to have done. Heck, for that matter she has more experience running things than anyone else in the race.

[JPhillips]

This fetishization over executive experience is ridiculous. ARe you honestly trying to argue that Palin, because she was a Governor is more qualified than McCain, Obama and Biden? Can you honestly believe that being the Governor of a state that has a population smaller than Indianapolis carries more weight than the US Senate?

I don't really care what you think of Palin as I still don't think either VP really matters, but the idea that any sliver of executive experience is always better than a lifetime of legislative experience is crazy. Does her time as Mayor of Wasilla, where she ran things, outweigh 20 years in the Senate?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Bill Mahar tonight (paraphrasing): Palin was the mayor of Wissilla, Alaska. That's who we want at a time in crisis, when she got the call at 3 in the morning it was because a moose had gotten into the trash can.

Which is a loftier decision than Obama has ever had to make.

[SFL Cat]

This fetishization over executive experience is ridiculous. ARe you honestly trying to argue that Palin, because she was a Governor is more qualified than McCain, Obama and Biden? Can you honestly believe that being the Governor of a state that has a population smaller than Indianapolis carries more weight than the US Senate?

I don't really care what you think of Palin as I still don't think either VP really matters, but the idea that any sliver of executive experience is always better than a lifetime of legislative experience is crazy. Does her time as Mayor of Wasilla, where she ran things, outweigh 20 years in the Senate?

No, but I'm not discounting it either. Clinton was the governor of itty bitty Arkansas, and yet many of you consider him the greatest president ever. Obama has been in the national legislature for less than four years...and he has spent most of that time campaigning for the presidency. His resume of accomplishments is surprisingly bare. And unlike Obama, Palin won't be running for the top job.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Can you honestly believe that being the Governor of a state that has a population smaller than Indianapolis carries more weight than the US Senate? ... Does her time as Mayor of Wasilla, where she ran things, outweigh 20 years in the Senate?

It wasn't me originally on that point, but yes I'd say I believe that, at least in terms of having faced scenarios where executive decisions are required.

Congressional experience proves little to me beyond an ability to conduct a successful campaign for office. And as rare as agreements on political matters for us might be, I think you'll probably agree that winning an election & being capable in office really aren't guaranteed companions.

[Arles]

On the experience issue, I'd rather have a 2-year governor (with a proven record of accomplishments) ready to fill in for McCain than a 4-year US senator (who spent the last 2 years campaigning) stepping into the job on day 1 regardless.

Plus, it would be nice to have someone in the executive branch that actually understands the ANWAR issue and knows the local variables involved. Maybe she can help explain to Obama how you need to drill for oil during the process to get all that "clean natural gas" from Alaska that Barack's been touting for so long.

[SFL Cat]

dola -- on top of that, Palin has actually had a career outside of politics, something I don't think any of the other candidates can claim, unless you want to count McCain's military service.

[cuervo72]

haha, someone already registered vpilf.com

Huh, I didn't even think of the domain registration angle (I did arrive at the same basic term myself pretty soon after the announcement though...hey wait, DC, are you responsible for this??).

[yacovfb]

dola -- on top of that, Palin has actually had a career outside of politics, something I don't think any of the other candidates can claim, unless you want to count McCain's military service.

If you count McCain's military service then you've got to count Obama's time as a community organizer and a lecturer (not sure if he was actually a professor or not).

[DaddyTorgo]

McCain was the Repblican nominee clear back in April - he has had 6 months to chose a running mate, and this is his first decision?
He blew it, and I mean, he blew it big time.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm getting too worked up in this thread and I can see myself saying something i'll regret soon, so i'm going to bow out now, at least for a while.

[JPhillips]

No, but I'm not discounting it either. Clinton was the governor of itty bitty Arkansas, and yet many of you consider him the greatest president ever. Obama has been in the national legislature for less than four years...and he has spent most of that time campaigning for the presidency. His resume of accomplishments is surprisingly bare. And unlike Obama, Palin won't be running for the top job.

I've said repeatedly that I think judgment is far more important than experience. I certainly don't consider Clinton the best president, but I do think he did a good job, however, I wouldn't credit much if any of that to being governor of Arkansas.

It wasn't me originally on that point, but yes I'd say I believe that, at least in terms of having faced scenarios where executive decisions are required.

Congressional experience proves little to me beyond an ability to conduct a successful campaign for office. And as rare as agreements on political matters for us might be, I think you'll probably agree that winning an election & being capable in office really aren't guaranteed companions.

If it's just "executive decisions" I think a Senator has to make those as well, at least in terms of running the small business that is a Senate staff.

As much as we disagree, at least you're honest enough to stand for what you think no matter what.

btw- You should be happy to hear that some gays in Alaska are claiming Palin is a bigot!

dola -- on top of that, Palin has actually had a career outside of politics, something I don't think any of the other candidates can claim, unless you want to count McCain's military service.

Not true. Obama was a lawyer and law professor. McCain worked for his father-in-law's beer distributorship. Biden was a lawyer.

[SFL Cat]

Woops.

Obama Campaign Attacks, And Backtracks, on Palin (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/08/29/obama-campaign-attacks-and-backtracks-on-palin/)

[Arles]

i'm getting too worked up in this thread and I can see myself saying something i'll regret soon, so i'm going to bow out now, at least for a while.
If McCain blew it, you should be pleased as Obama is on the fast track to the presidency. I don't see where all the anger comes from.

[cuervo72]

dola -- on top of that, Palin has actually had a career outside of politics, something I don't think any of the other candidates can claim, unless you want to count McCain's military service.

I've been thinking about this. What exactly are the needed qualifications for president these days? Has it been narrowed down to active politicians with law degrees? Ex-military? Business? If foreign policy is such a concern, how would any Governor (Clinton? W? Reagan? Carter?) be considered to have enough experience there? If that's not the worry with "inexperience", what is?


Also, has the office of president gotten a little too powerful or out of balance with the other two branches of government? In theory, if a president that is as off-the-mark as W is thought to be comes along, shouldn't the other branches be able to more or less bitch-slap him back into line (of course, it's much easier for them to not do anything, but to point fingers when things go wrong and take credit anyway when things go right)?

[JonInMiddleGA]

He blew it, and I mean, he blew it big time.

FWIW (which ain't much since I only get one vote) my take after 12 hours or so is about the same. I don't think it's a huge mistake, but I think it's a mistake.

[sabotai]

McCain was the Repblican nominee clear back in April - he has had 6 months to chose a running mate, and this is his first decision?
He blew it, and I mean, he blew it big time.

I can't help but think that maybe he's hoping she blows "it" big time...

[DaddyTorgo]

If McCain blew it, you should be pleased as Obama is on the fast track to the presidency. I don't see where all the anger comes from.

I don't have anger...just saying that I can see myself sliding towards saying something i'd regret, or getting too worked up by people taking what I said and twisting it because I don't have the time or the inclination to monitor this thread to the extent some others do.

idk...

[DaddyTorgo]

from a blogger in Wisalia



Republican bloggers are already gushing about how she has ‘more executive experience’ than Obama does! Above is a picture of lovely downtown Wasilla, for those of you unfamiliar with the area. Behind the Mug-Shot Saloon (the first bar I visited when I moved to Alaska long ago) is a little strip mall. There are street signs in Wasilla with bullet holes in them. Wasilla has a population of about 5500 people, and 1979 occupied housing units. This is where your potential Vice President was two short years ago. Can you imagine her negotiating a nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Discussing foreign policy? Understanding non-Alaskan issues? Frankly, I don’t even know if she’s ever been out of the country.


hxxp://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/what-is-mccain-thinking-one-alaskans-perspective/

and from the next post later on the blog




Alaska State Senate President Lyda Green (R): “She’s not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? Look at what she’s done to this state. What would she do to the nation?” (Green is from Palin’s home town of Wasilla.)
Alaska House Speaker John Harris (R): “She’s old enough. She’s a U.S. citizen.”
Alaska Democratic Party Chair Patti Higgins: “In this very competitive election for them to go pick somebody who is … under a cloud of suspicion, who is under investigation for abuse of power. It just sounds like a pretty slow start to me. We need a vice president who can step in if, God forbid, something happened to John McCain. I don’t think she’s someone who is ready for that 3 a.m. phone call.”
Randy Ruedrich, Alaska Republican Party Chair: Not giving interviews.
Alaska Attorney General Talis Colberg: “a mixed set of emotions, kind of an odd sense of Alaska nationalism or pride. This is like watching a moon landing or something. It’s just something you don’t expect to see very often. It’s wonderful. It was an emotional thing to see the governor walk out with her family and I say, wow, I work for her.”
McHugh Pierre, Alaska Republican Party Spokesman: “She brings her voice of new energy and change. And she knows Alaska.”
Indicted Alaska Sr. Senator Ted Stevens (R): “it’s a great day for the nation and Alaskans.”
Andrew Halcro, local blogger (http://www.andrewhalcro.com/palin_tapped_as_mccains_vp_choice) who ran against Palin for governor: “This shocking choice says more about McCain’s desperation than it does about Palin’s qualifications”.
and my favorite…
Alaska State Representative Mike Doogan (D): “Either Sarah Palin has talents and skills we were not aware of”, or “John McCain fell down and hit his head”. He also called the prospect of Palin potentially needing to take over as President”pretty scary.”

[JPhillips]

I wondered if her attacks on fellow Alaskan Republicans might come back to bite her a bit. Stevens seems pretty effusive, though, so she'll be fine. If Don Young or Murkowski has something bad to say it will be all over the media.

I do love this:

Alaska House Speaker John Harris (R): “She’s old enough. She’s a U.S. citizen.”

[SFL Cat]

I've been thinking about this. What exactly are the needed qualifications for president these days? Has it been narrowed down to active politicians with law degrees? Ex-military? Business? If foreign policy is such a concern, how would any Governor (Clinton? W? Reagan? Carter?) be considered to have enough experience there? If that's not the worry with "inexperience", what is?

As far as experience, I'm usually good with anyone who has NOT been a career politician from day 1.

Also, has the office of president gotten a little too powerful or out of balance with the other two branches of government? In theory, if a president that is as off-the-mark as W is thought to be comes along, shouldn't the other branches be able to more or less bitch-slap him back into line (of course, it's much easier for them to not do anything, but to point fingers when things go wrong and take credit anyway when things go right)?

Actually, the branch that has gotten completely out of control IMO is the judiciary.

[Arles]

The only people that dislike Palin more than the Alaskan democratic machine is the Alaskan republican machine. But, that's what happen when you actively go after and expose corruption in both parties. Of course, that's also why she has between 60 and 85% approval in the state.

Again, if Obama wants to paint critical comments from a very corrupt state republican party as a knock on Palin, have at it. We'll see what the people think when it's all said and done.

[BillyMadison]

Frankly, I don’t even know if she’s ever been out of the country.



Funny, she's been to Iraq the same amount of times Obama has. And she was in Germany recently, and she actually, you know, decided not to skip the stop to visit injured US Troops.

http://gov.state.ak.us/photos/govp_woundedsoldier02s.jpg

[SFL Cat]

This is where your potential Vice President was two short years ago. Can you imagine her negotiating a nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Discussing foreign policy? Understanding non-Alaskan issues?

Yes, I feel soooo much more confident seeing Osama bin Bama negotiating that treaty.

Frankly, I don’t even know if she’s ever been out of the country.


Apparently, she has.

http://www.championnews.net/admin/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/files/PalinDuringKuwaitVisit.jpg

[SnowMan]

I'm a political idiot, but I will toss in that since Palin took over, she's been VERY popular up here on the anti-corruption stuff, and "take back the government" type of platform. I can see how this would appeal to a lot of Americans.

[yacovfb]

Yes, I feel soooo much more confident seeing Osama bin Bama negotiating that treaty.


Racist much?

[DaddyTorgo]

Yes, I feel soooo much more confident seeing Osama bin Bama negotiating that treaty.




:rolleyes::deadhorse:

with a comment like that you've basically shown your true colors and indicated that it's fruitless to attempt to engage you in any type of adult conversation.

[SFL Cat]

Racist much?

Sexist much? See, I can do it too.

[SFL Cat]

:rolleyes::deadhorse:

with a comment like that you've basically shown your true colors and indicated that it's fruitless to attempt to engage you in any type of adult conversation.

I usually don't attempt to engage in adult discussions here...it's generally pointless, especially in regards to politics.

[yacovfb]

Sexist much? See, I can do it too.

And I made a sexist comment when exactly?

To quote Anchorman...
"Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while."

[DaddyTorgo]

Sexist much? See, I can do it too.

last time I respond to something you post -- nobody is attacking Palin because she is a woman. They're attacking her on actual issues and positions and behavior, not her plumbing. Unlike your bigoted bullshit.

[SFL Cat]

last time I respond to something you post -- nobody is attacking Palin because she is a woman. They're attacking her on actual issues and positions and behavior, not her plumbing. Unlike your bigoted bullshit.

Watch the blood pressure there Daddy-o.

[DaddyTorgo]

I usually don't attempt to engage in adult discussions here...it's generally pointless, especially in regards to politics.

so you're trolling then? good to know

[SFL Cat]

last time I respond to something you post -- nobody is attacking Palin because she is a woman. They're attacking her on actual issues and positions and behavior, not her plumbing. Unlike your bigoted bullshit.

Bigoted bullshit...because I think Obama is an empty suit, that makes me a bigot? Nice! Put someone like Colin Powell in there to negotiate that treaty, I feel completely different about things.

[SFL Cat]

And I made a sexist comment when exactly?

To quote Anchorman...
"Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while."

Well, you started the name calling...just thought I'd return the favor.

[DaddyTorgo]

Bigoted bullshit...because I think Obama is an empty suit, that makes me a bigot? Nice! Put someone like Colin Powell in there to negotiate that treaty, I feel completely different about things.

no - bigoted because you intentionally messed up his name to try to make it more muslim-sounding to play on that fear and heighten it.

FWIW - I'd feel better with Biden negotiating the treaty than I would with Obama, and I suspect that in Foreign Policy that Biden will have a substantial role to play.

[yacovfb]

Well, you started the name calling...just thought I'd return the favor.

Considering your attempt to paint Obama as the terrorist who attacked us on 9/11, I'd say that my "name calling" is minor compared to what you did.

edit: I'm done responding, shouldn't have done so in the first place. Don't want to double my post count over this ;)

[SFL Cat]

Yes...I'm sorry my playful turn with "the One's" name frightened you so badly.

And I'm sure you or no one of your persuasion here has ever referred to Bush as "the Chimp" on these boards either.

[Arles]

Some info for those of you wondering who this blogger cited in Alaska politics:


Alaska State Senate President Lyda Green (R) - decided not to run for re-election after Palin's FBI Veco probe exposed her involvement:
“She’s not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? Look at what she’s done to this state. What would she do to the nation?” (Green is from Palin’s home town of Wasilla.)

Alaska House Speaker John Harris (R) - violated house ethics laws and presided over the state congress during the Veco bribery scandal:
“She’s old enough. She’s a U.S. citizen.”

Alaska Democratic Party Chair Patti Higgins - opposing party chair who witnessed Palin beat her close friend in the gov election and expose democrat involvement in the scandal:
“In this very competitive election for them to go pick somebody who is … under a cloud of suspicion, who is under investigation for abuse of power. It just sounds like a pretty slow start to me. We need a vice president who can step in if, God forbid, something happened to John McCain. I don’t think she’s someone who is ready for that 3 a.m. phone call.”

Andrew Halcro - destroyed by Palin in the gov election: “This shocking choice says more about McCain’s desperation than it does about Palin’s qualifications”.

and my favorite…
Alaska State Representative Mike Doogan - opposing party rep who had to explain numerous "boondoggle" lunches with oil industry lobbyists as part of Palin's support for Veco investigation
: “Either Sarah Palin has talents and skills we were not aware of”, or “John McCain fell down and hit his head”. He also called the prospect of Palin potentially needing to take over as President”pretty scary.”
Quite an unbiased group there. Next thing you know, we'll see some negative comments from senate republicans on Obama.

[molson]

Arles is dominating this thread

[SFL Cat]

Arles is dominating this thread

Hadn't noticed...too occupied being a racist.

[Deattribution]

last time I respond to something you post -- nobody is attacking Palin because she is a woman. They're attacking her on actual issues and positions and behavior, not her plumbing. Unlike your bigoted bullshit.

Actually, all the attacks seem to be centered on her lack of experience when in reality her and Obama have about equal amount of experience, just in different areas. If Obama is good enough on shaky (at best) experience, why isn't Palin?
I'd say some of it is over the fact that she's a woman, and some people have it set in their minds that no woman could be ready for the job.

I personally don't have a problem with either in the experience department, because ultimately anyone who becomes president ends up having so many advisors that they'll be informed enough to the point that any bad decisions will be piss poor judgement or foresight, not a lack of experience.

[Arles]

I wondered if her attacks on fellow Alaskan Republicans might come back to bite her a bit. Stevens seems pretty effusive, though, so she'll be fine. If Don Young
You mean the Don Young who was connected to both the Abramoff debacle (adn.com | alaska : Young linked to Abramoff's tribal clients (http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7391199p-7303453c.html)) and one of the main culprits in the Veco scandal? (adn.com | Alaska political investigations : Paper reports Young's Veco ties investigated in federal probe (http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/fbi/story/9162143p-9077780c.html))

or Murkowski
You mean the Frank Murkowski who was a complete disaster as governor, created a ton of wasteful spending and left office with a whopping 14% approval rating because of scandals/spending?

has something bad to say it will be all over the media.
About the only thing that would hurt Palin from those two winners would be a complete endorsement. Why don't we just ask Jack Ryan his opinion of Obama while we're at it.

[SFL Cat]

I'd say some of it is over the fact that she's a woman, and some people have it set in their minds that no woman could be ready for the job.

I think history has shown that there are women up-to-the-challenge of leading a nation.

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/ReaganThatcher-thumb.jpg

[Galaril]

Racist much?

:rolleyes::deadhorse:

with a comment like that you've basically shown your true colors and indicated that it's fruitless to attempt to engage you in any type of adult conversation.

Yeah, I agree. Geez I can actually see his white hood all the way from Colorado.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah, I agree. Geez I can actually see his white hood all the way from Colorado.

Well played sir.

LOL for real.