Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

There hasn't been proof of large scale election fraud(enough to make a difference) in decades. Voter fraud, stealing votes, machines being hacked, etc. are all minor problems at worst.

Sincerely,

Everyone in a graveyard in Chicago

:D

[Crim]

I'll say this for the 4085th time in these threads over the past two years (JPhillips has said it a lot) but

judgment + character > experience

especially given that the relevant "experience" for President has proven difficult to define.

Flere, I agree with your equation, but you cannot discount the role of the "experience" card in campaigns.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What I meant to say was "It's nice to see that not only the left has difficulty admitting it has lost an election fairly" - just like those on the left feel the last two were "stolen".

Once again, I haven't seen much of that either. There's plenty of fraud to go around. It'll all even out in the end. The left's claims of 'stolen' elections appear petty and childish at best. I don't think Republicans will come even close to stooping to that level. A win is a win.

[Fighter of Foo]

Oh yeah? How about Change?

At work if something's broken we change it. That doesn't always mean better. In Obama's case it won't even mean different.

[Crim]

I think Crim's probably the first, at least here at FOFC.

I never said the election would be stolen, flere, or that McCain would win. I responded to the "If Obama wins by 7, oversampled his votes, blah blah" joke, because I do believe that there is voter fraud going on.

I believe that it happens in both directions, but is much more prevalent on the Democrat side.

You have misinterpreted me.

[Crim]

What I meant to say was "It's nice to see that not only the left has difficulty admitting it has lost an election fairly" - just like those on the left feel the last two were "stolen".

Again, I believe McCain has lost this election fair and square. While I wholeheartedly disagree with the decision our nation is making today, I don't doubt that the result for Obama will be the will of the people.

I'd echo Jon in clarifying that I was referring to the margin of lead in the polls, and the margin of victory in some states.

[Crim]

At work if something's broken we change it. That doesn't always mean better. In Obama's case it won't even mean different.

This lol'd me for some reason.

[Alan T]

If he hadn't chosen Palin, he'd be losing by 15+ rather than the 2-3 points he'll likely lose by today. Palin is the sole reason this election is still close.

If McCain had selected a more moderate candidate, if their entire focus of the campaign had gotten away from the religious right, the extreme social issues and focused on going with a more sound way of improving the economy be encouraging spending through less taxes and cutting of various un-needed government fat, etc.. I would have likely voted for him.

As it is, I could care less to vote for pushing the far right social agenda and I honestly don't think mcCain wanted that either but instead had his hand forced by the party, or someone just convinced him unwisely to do so. I think everyone pushing him further right is what actually caused him to lose the election. Sure he might get more votes from the far right, but those people were not voting Obama anyways. This current strategy on their part might have added more far right votes, but also pushed a good number of votes towards voting Obama. Net gain for the democrats.

[Tigercat]

I don't understand how conservatives can say that Obama is way left, and yet insist that Palin was positive or necessary for a close race or victory.

If Obama is far left, a centrist campaign should beat him right? Because the base will show up to vote against a far left candidate like Obama. And, as I have read here, we are a right center nation?

I don't understand the conservative logic, does not compute.

[Alan T]

I took distinct pleasure in voting for Jeff Beatty, though nothing will be able to wedge Kerry out of the Senate. Maybe he'll be nominated for a post in Obama's cabinet.

I looked at Beatty some, but I couldn't find anything that he really stood strong for other than his past military experience and how his past with the CIA and in the military makes him an expert on the war in Iraq. I also looked at Underwood, and he is a complete joke of a candidate.. I really didn't see any option other than voting Kerry for senator. I don't really like him that much, but considering the other options, it didn't seem like we had a great choice for U.S. senate this time.

[DaddyTorgo]

Once again, I haven't seen much of that either. There's plenty of fraud to go around. It'll all even out in the end. The left's claims of 'stolen' elections appear petty and childish at best. I don't think Republicans will come even close to stooping to that level. A win is a win.

You can't state that empirically though, so we'll have to wait and see until such a time as we can determine that.

[Mustang]

I'm voting in 3 hours and still don't know who I'm voting for.

[JPhillips]

Once again, I haven't seen much of that either. There's plenty of fraud to go around. It'll all even out in the end. The left's claims of 'stolen' elections appear petty and childish at best. I don't think Republicans will come even close to stooping to that level. A win is a win.

WASHINGTON – The only way Barack Obama can win in Indiana is to cheat, one of John McCain's stand-ins said Thursday.

He said votes have already been cast by "people who don't exist" and that a national voter-registration effort is "trying to steal the election in Indiana."

In an interview before headlining the Indiana Republican Party's fund-raising dinner in Indianapolis Thursday night, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said Hoosiers are too smart to vote for Obama.

Democrats, he said, "can't win fairly out here."

Asked if Democrats could win without cheating, Graham said, "No. They can't win fairly out here 'cause their agenda is so far removed from the average Hoosier.

[miked]

Margin? I absolutely believe it'll be influenced by vote fraud.
Outcome? Haven't seen that asserted here.

Fraud is a problem with voter registration, not with actual voter fraud. Maybe if you had some basis of reality, you would see that vote fraud doesn't really play a big role in elections, unless you think stats like this: "In the United States, fifty-two people have been convicted of federal election fraud for voting in multiple locations since 2002" underestimate the vote fraud by 1000-fold.

Unless of course you have some statistical data to back any of your assertions up, which as usual is doubtful. Now if you'd like to talk about voter coercion and intimidation, and even disenfranchisement, then maybe things like that play a role. But please, at least consult reality sometimes.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

WASHINGTON – The only way Barack Obama can win in Indiana is to cheat, one of John McCain's stand-ins said Thursday.

He said votes have already been cast by "people who don't exist" and that a national voter-registration effort is "trying to steal the election in Indiana."

In an interview before headlining the Indiana Republican Party's fund-raising dinner in Indianapolis Thursday night, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said Hoosiers are too smart to vote for Obama.

Democrats, he said, "can't win fairly out here."

Asked if Democrats could win without cheating, Graham said, "No. They can't win fairly out here 'cause their agenda is so far removed from the average Hoosier.

The discussion revolved around this thread. I'm guessing those guys didn't post in this thread, though it would make it interesting if they had. I have no doubt that you'll find an idiot here or there to claim that (yes, I include Graham in the idiot group).

I expect Indiana to be a McCain state in the end, so I'm not sure it matters all that much.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If he hadn't chosen Palin, he'd be losing by 15+ rather than the 2-3 points he'll likely lose by today. Palin is the sole reason this election is still close.

While apparently the numbers don't support this assumption, it's really sad that people feel this way. Palin panders to the lowest common denominator. I really liked McCain. While I have lost quite a bit of respect for him over the last 4+ years or so, I still think he could make a decent president.

Palin, however, is beyond the pale. She is a divisive force and seems to bring out the worst in folks. I seriously hope she ends up a footnote, if so, that will be a very good sign for America. That said, I think she'll be around for a long, long time, which is despressing.

Palin certainly didn't influence my vote, but it certainly did make me feel better when I got to vote against her.

[Crim]

I'm voting in 3 hours and still don't know who I'm voting for.

Seriously?

I thought you people were a myth!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

While apparently the numbers don't support this assumption............

As was pointed out earlier, the statistics cited in regard to this included partisan Obama voters, which is obviously not reflective of the overall effect. Many wouldn't have voted for McCain no matter what. We don't have a poll to compare what effect the other options would have had in comparison, so information in that regard is subjective at best.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This thread does a remarkable job on both sides of echoing the talking points of the greater blogosphere.

Well in that case, I'm sure there was someone bitching if it included blogs. :D

[Crim]

Fraud is a problem with voter registration, not with actual voter fraud. Maybe if you had some basis of reality, you would see that vote fraud doesn't really play a big role in elections, unless you think stats like this: "In the United States, fifty-two people have been convicted of federal election fraud for voting in multiple locations since 2002" underestimate the vote fraud by 1000-fold.

Unless of course you have some statistical data to back any of your assertions up, which as usual is doubtful. Now if you'd like to talk about voter coercion and intimidation, and even disenfranchisement, then maybe things like that play a role. But please, at least consult reality sometimes.

Wow, miked. You sure told him.

Oh by the way, I've exceeded the speed limit in my car at least 1000 times for every ticket I've gotten. Just sayin.

[sterlingice]

Why does negative advertising against Obama have to be classified as racism, SI? There's plenty of Bill Ayers stuff out there as well. Is the good reverend off-limits simply because he's black?

I haven't seen any Ayers stuff on tv the last week in Virginia- hence why I didn't mention it. It's run its course and it didn't really work.

However, showing the Rev Wright stuff the last night before an election is clearly used to evoke a "see, look at his friend. fear the black guy when you go to the polls tomorrow" snap response.

I think it's pretty clear that when you bring back something that hasn't been used for months in a quick, sharp ad like that with the "God Damn America" clips- you know what the ad people were going for.

SI

[Mustang]

Seriously?

I thought you people were a myth!

Ya, seriously. I'm like a unicorn I guess.

[miked]

Wow, miked. You sure told him.

Oh by the way, I've exceeded the speed limit in my car at least 1000 times for every ticket I've gotten. Just sayin.

LOL. Once again, I'd like to see numbers. But I guess it really depends on what you consider fraud. But I do love your kind of arguments. I can't really show any numbers, so who wants to watch me hit some homers!

[Dr. Sak]

Again, I believe McCain has lost this election fair and square. While I wholeheartedly disagree with the decision our nation is making today, I don't doubt that the result for Obama will be the will of the people.

I agree 100%. I want to add that even though I disagree with Obama on many issues, I do not think he is an evil man. He believes that he is doing what is right to make this country better. That doesn't make him a bad man.

[sterlingice]

Ya, seriously. I'm like a unicorn I guess.

Is it that you feel that you don't know enough about either candidate or that they both appeal (or don't appeal) to you at about the same level? If you're the former, you shouldn't vote. If you're the latter, you are like a unicorn ;)

Or there's always the option that you fit into one of John Oliver's four categories of undecided voters from a few weeks ago (attention seekers, chronically insecure, racist Democrats, and, by far the largest, the stupid- which can be broken down into many smaller subsets)

SI

[Dr. Sak]

I'm voting in 3 hours and still don't know who I'm voting for.

Flip a coin...that's how I decided which girl was going to get my extra World Series ticket.

[sterlingice]

BTW, I don't want to prematurely cut this thread short, but maybe we should start to migrate conversation over to the "Who Did you Vote For (http://osatwork.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=68498) thread for results?

Oh, c'mon- this thread needs to reach 10000 :D

SI

[Honolulu_Blue]

Flip a coin...that's how I decided which girl was going to get my extra World Series ticket.

How'd that work out for you?

[sterlingice]

Ah, to be 27 again, be right all the time, and instigate pissing matches on a message board. Those were the days. :D

Did you turn 28 today?

SI

[Dr. Sak]

How'd that work out for you?

Excellent!

[KWhit]

{scratches head}

Maybe I've missed something but I think I've seen a grand total of one prediction of McCain victory all day here.

Margin? I absolutely believe it'll be influenced by vote fraud.
Outcome? Haven't seen that asserted here.

Voter fraud? Really?!?!

:lol:

[Fighter of Foo]

As was pointed out earlier, the statistics cited in regard to this included partisan Obama voters, which is obviously not reflective of the overall effect. Many wouldn't have voted for McCain no matter what. We don't have a poll to compare what effect the other options would have had in comparison, so information in that regard is subjective at best.

Sigh. :(

"(ASKED OF LIKELY VOTERS) Does (Obama’s/McCain’s) choice of (Biden/Palin)
for vice president make you more likely to vote for (Obama/McCain), less likely, or won’t it make any difference in your vote? "


Date, Likely/Registered/All, More/Less/Indifferent

Obama’s choice of Biden:

11/1/08 LV 28 14 58

9/29/08 LV 26 14 60

9/4/08 RV 22 11 66

McCain’s choice of Palin:
11/1/08 LV 17 46 37

9/29/08 LV 24 32 43

9/4/08 RV 25 19 55

Compare to:

Kerry’s choice of Edwards:
7/25/08 RV 24 9 66

Gore’s choice of Lieberman:
8/7/00 All 15 10 73

Bush’s choice of Cheney:
7/29/00 RV 14 6 78

Dole’s choice of Kemp:
8/15/96 RV 18 6 75

For recent VP picks other than this year, people haven't historically cared, and the ones who have were roughly 2/1 in support of said VP pick. Palin is roughly 3/1 against. I know this is one poll, but there's no logical way you can conclude Palin is the reason the race is as "close" as it is.

[Mustang]

Is it that you feel that you don't know enough about either candidate or that they both appeal (or don't appeal) to you at about the same level? If you're the former, you shouldn't vote. If you're the latter, you are like a unicorn ;)


The latter. Both have ideas I like and some ideas I can't see past. I have no desire to state what they are here because they are my opinions and they are too deep rooted for someone to even dent them in short time span.

As for the 4 categories, they are all pretty unflattering. I'm not a racist democraft, I'm not looking for attention (I'd do an Ireport on CNN if that was the case), stupid? I should hope not.. As for insecure, not 100% sure what is meant by that unless they mean that you aren't sure if your stance on an issue is right. (That is.. I'm for abortion, but like McCain otherwise so, maybe I'm wrong and should vote for him anyways...)

[DaddyTorgo]

Wow, miked. You sure told him.

Oh by the way, I've exceeded the speed limit in my car at least 1000 times for every ticket I've gotten. Just sayin.

that's comparing apples to oranges - try this on instead:

for everytime you have run a red light at an intersection that has traffic cameras, how many warnings/tickets have you gotten later in the mail? I bet the ratio is a lot closer to 1:1

[Neon_Chaos]

It's clearly obvious that the Republicans needed to pull in swing voters to have a chance to win. Palin probably lost this election for the Republicans by losing the undecided vote more than she provided the base a reason to vote for McCain.

[larrymcg421]

I posted a while back on how the ACORN story was being misreported, because they were focusing on the names being submitted (Mickey Mouse, Tony Romo) which is irrelevant to the issue because they are required by law to turn ALL forms in. The only thing they can do is flag the false forms. Once the the media started to grasp that aspect, the stories died down significantly, because they realized that most of them had been flagged.

[sterlingice]

The latter. Both have ideas I like and some ideas I can't see past. I have no desire to state what they are here because they are my opinions and they are too deep rooted for someone to even dent them in short time span.

As for the 4 categories, they are all pretty unflattering. I'm not a racist democraft, I'm not looking for attention (I'd do an Ireport on CNN if that was the case), stupid? I should hope not.. As for insecure, not 100% sure what is meant by that unless they mean that you aren't sure if your stance on an issue is right. (That is.. I'm for abortion, but like McCain otherwise so, maybe I'm wrong and should vote for him anyways...)

Well, yes the four categories are from the Daily Show. It was meant to be funny, not accurate. ;)

But, yeah, if you line up almost identically on both sides of things, you are a weird breed and good luck with your decision.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

*warning - blanket generalization below*

seems to me that Democrats have complained in the past about voter disenfranchisement, and now Republicans will complain about vote fraud.

*end blanket generalization*

of the two, there is certainly more evidence that disenfranchisement occurs than VOTE fraud.

Voter REGISTRATION "fraud" if you will, exists, but it's largely for reasons already discussed: volunteers paid by the registration, the requirement to turn in all forms, etc. The fact is though, that nobody named "Micky Mouse" ever shows up to vote, or indeed even makes it onto the voting rolls. In that sense, it's not fraud. It's the system working as it was designed to, to weed out these "bogus" applications.

[Mustang]

Well, yes the four categories are from the Daily Show. It was meant to be funny, not accurate. ;)

But, yeah, if you line up almost identically on both sides of things, you are a weird breed and good luck with your decision.

SI

*L*

Don't watch the Daily Show very much so, you got me there. :p :D

No wonder that list looked so freakin' weird. It was like some said "Ok, you are either stupid, an asshole, egotistical or weak.. pick one!"

[Arles]

In the "irony of the day" contest, we have a first entry:

A report just came that said the reason that Obama was waiting so long outside the polls before he voted, it seems that William Ayers was currently voting in that polling spot and Obama didn't want to give anyone the chance to get a picture of them both together. :D

[Crim]

McCain’s choice of Palin:
11/1/08 LV 17 46 37

9/29/08 LV 24 32 43

9/4/08 RV 25 19 55



I had not seen this, and am surprised by it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Did you turn 28 today?

SI

I wish. It was a few years ago. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Fraud is a problem with voter registration, not with actual voter fraud.

Maybe the legal definition differs, but it seems pretty point A to point B that a vote cast by someone after fraudulent registration would be ... umm ... fraud.

[Arles]

Let me just say this would be an unmitigated disaster for our country if it happened. I would rather have McCain lose than this happen. I just can't see Obama supporters accepting this if it happened:

WASHINGTON – It's a nightmare scenario for Democrats — their nominee Barack Obama winning the popular vote while Republican John McCain ekes out an Electoral College victory. Sure, McCain trails in every recent national poll. Sure, surveys show that Obama leads in the race to reach the requisite 270 electoral votes to win the presidency.

Sure, chances of Republicans retaining the White House are remote.

But some last-minute state polls show the GOP nominee closing the gap in key states — Republican turf of Virginia, Florida and Ohio among them, and Democratic-leaning Pennsylvania, too.

If the tightening polls are correct and undecided voters in those states break McCain's way — both big ifs — that could make for a repeat of the 2000 heartbreaker for Democrats that gave Republicans the White House.

In 2000, Democrat Al Gore narrowly won the popular vote by 537,179 votes. But George W. Bush won the state-by-state electoral balloting that determines the presidency, 271 to 266. The outcome wasn't clear until a 36-day recount awarded Florida, then worth 25 electoral votes, to Bush by just a 537-vote margin.

Before the 2000 election, political insiders had speculated just the opposite, that perhaps Bush would win the popular vote but lose the presidency to Gore.

One day before the 2008 election, Obama sat atop every national poll.

Enthusiastic by all measures, the Illinois senator's Democratic base was expected to run up the score in liberal bastions of party strongholds such as New York and California.

But the race appeared to be naturally tightening in top battlegrounds that each candidate likely will need to help them reach the magic number in the Electoral College, electoral-rich Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Virginia among them.

To win, McCain must hold on to most states that went to Bush in 2004, or pick up one or more that went to Democrat John Kerry four years ago to make up for any losses. McCain's biggest target for a pickup is Pennsylvania, which offers 21 votes and where several public polls show Obama's lead shrinking from double digits to single digits.

McCain faces a steep hurdle. Obama leads or is tied in a dozen or so Bush-won states, and has the advantage in most Kerry-won states.

The Republican's campaign argues that as national surveys tighten, McCain's standing in key states also rises and that, combined with get-out-the-vote efforts, will lift McCain to victory in Bush states and, perhaps, others.

"What we're in for is a slam-bang finish. ... He's been counted out before and won these kinds of states, and we're in the process of winning them right now," Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, said Sunday.

Obama's team is awash in confidence.

"We think we have a decisive edge right now" in states Bush won four years ago, said David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager.

There's still another possibility, perhaps more improbable than the first — that McCain wins the popular vote while Obama clinches the White House.

True, Democrats have been fired up all year.

True, Republicans haven't been.

True, Obama and McCain have been faring about even among independent voters.

But there are signs that the GOP's conservative base has rallied in the final stretch and these voters usually turn out in droves, even if lukewarm on the candidate.

Then there's the question of a tie in the Electoral College. In that case, members of the next House would select the winner.

If Obama carries every state that Democrat John Kerry won in 2004, plus Iowa, New Mexico and Nevada, then he and McCain each would have 269 electoral votes. A tie also would result if McCain takes New Hampshire from the Democrats' column but loses Iowa, New Mexico and another state that Bush won, Colorado.

In an election year that's defied conventional wisdom time and again, anything can happen.
Can Obama win popular vote but lose election? - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081103/ap_on_el_pr/split_decision_4)

[Lathum]

so apparently in Philly 2 members of the Black panther party, one with a night stick are blocking the door intimidating voters claiming republican voters shouldnt bother voting because a black man is going to win.

[Raiders Army]

I'll say this for the 4085th time in these threads over the past two years (JPhillips has said it a lot) but

judgment + character > experience

especially given that the relevant "experience" for President has proven difficult to define.

I agree with your experience sentence. The problem with your equation is that judgment is based upon experience. When you were 18, did you have the same judgment you had at 36? Or did your judgment change based upon your life experiences?

I think, however, that there are diminishing returns on experience and judgment.

I'm just pointing out that your equation is somewhat circular. ;)

[SirFozzie]

so apparently in Philly 2 members of the Black panther party, one with a night stick are blocking the door intimidating voters claiming republican voters shouldnt bother voting because a black man is going to win.

If true, throw em in jail, throw away the key, but I'm not going to trust internet rumor.

[DaddyTorgo]

Maybe the legal definition differs, but it seems pretty point A to point B that a vote cast by someone after fraudulent registration would be ... umm ... fraud.

can you point to a documented instance of that happening? let alone say...100 documented instances of that happening? or 1000? The simple fact is that you can't (okay maybe one, but what did someone post earlier...52 arrests in the last election?) IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. FRAUDULENT REGISTRATIONS /= VOTES

[DaddyTorgo]

so apparently in Philly 2 members of the Black panther party, one with a night stick are blocking the door intimidating voters claiming republican voters shouldnt bother voting because a black man is going to win.

well if true they ought to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and locked up for years

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let me just say this would be an unmitigated disaster for our country if it happened. I would rather have McCain lose than this happen. I just can't see Obama supporters accepting this if it happened:

Has a snowball's chance (if that) but it'd be a hoot, the whole agony of defeat thing would be priceless.

The more appropriate scenario would be the EC tie, which would be pretty indicative of how divided a mess we really are.

[Arles]

McCain’s choice of Palin:
11/1/08 LV 17 46 37

9/29/08 LV 24 32 43

9/4/08 RV 25 19 55

(using rcp)
9/4: McCain up 51-45 in most polls
9/29: McCain down 43-48 in most polls
11/1: McCain down 41-50 in most polls

so, when McCain was up 51-45, Palin had 25% more/19% less. When McCain was down 43-48, Palin had 25% more/32% less. When McCain dipped to 41-50, Palin had 17% more/46% less.

it seems that the economic issues and the state of the country brought down McCain's support, which (not surprisingly) decreased the amount of support for Palin.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Let me just say this would be an unmitigated disaster for our country if it happened. I would rather have McCain lose than this happen. I just can't see Obama supporters accepting this if it happened:

What exactly do you mean by "not accepting this"? Riots? A coup? Or just a long, drawn out process like we saw in 2000?

[flere-imsaho]

Flere, I agree with your equation, but you cannot discount the role of the "experience" card in campaigns.

Oh, I agree absolutely. Experience, like a great many other traits, can be overblown in importance during campaigns.

You have misinterpreted me.

Ah, my bad. Apologies.

Let me just say this would be an unmitigated disaster for our country if it happened. I would rather have McCain lose than this happen. I just can't see Obama supporters accepting this if it happened

I think anyone hates to see an election where one candidate gets the popular vote and the other gets the electoral vote. Bush/Gore in 2000 was bad, sure, but I think it was made far worse by the shambolic nature of the interminable recounts in Florida, combined with Katherine Harris' obvious partisan leanings during the recount.

In the end, though, if we end up with the situation you describe, Arles, it'll be far worse than 2000 because I think people cared a lot less in 2000. For most, there didn't seem to be a lot of difference between Bush and Gore. The economy was great, we were in no wars, and the President was seen to probably be a caretaker after Clinton.

I know I personally was annoyed by the result, but I figured that it was unlikely Bush could do a lot of harm to the country. Worst case scenario, I felt, was that we'd lose more seats on the Supreme Court. Boy was I wrong....

I'm just pointing out that your equation is somewhat circular. ;)

Well of course - life is somewhat circular. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

can you point to a documented instance of that happening? let alone say...100 documented instances of that happening? or 1000? The simple fact is that you can't (okay maybe one, but what did someone post earlier...52 arrests in the last election?) IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. FRAUDULENT REGISTRATIONS /= VOTES

Of all elections, considering Obama's home state, to try to claim that isn't a long history of shenanigans? C'mon DT, you're smarter than that, surely you aren't going to claim that Richard Daley was clean just because he wasn't charged?

[Mustang]

What exactly do you mean by "not accepting this"? Riots? A coup? Or just a long, drawn out process like we saw in 2000?

Drawn out process and riots.

[SirFozzie]

Jon: Here's the thing, if there was large scale voter fraud in the last couple elections, don't you think Bush and Gonzales etcetera would have made a huge freaking media circus about it?

[DaddyTorgo]

What exactly do you mean by "not accepting this"? Riots? A coup? Or just a long, drawn out process like we saw in 2000?

clearly he's referring to a coup. angry liberals taking to the streets - disenfranchised minorities

shit man...it's the turner diaries!! :eek:

[Lathum]

If true, throw em in jail, throw away the key, but I'm not going to trust internet rumor.

not an internet report, it was on TV with an interview with an eye witness who was ex military and took them on, and footage of one of the black panthers.

[SirFozzie]

not an internet report, it was on TV with an interview with an eye witness who was ex military and took them on, and footage of one of the black panthers.

then throw em jail for years.

[Crim]

In the "irony of the day" contest, we have a first entry:

A report just came that said the reason that Obama was waiting so long outside the polls before he voted, it seems that William Ayers was currently voting in that polling spot and Obama didn't want to give anyone the chance to get a picture of them both together. :D

Hilarious if true.

[Arles]

Looks like the party of tolerance is already starting to talk about their agenda once they land full power:

Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) on Tuesday defended the so-called Fairness Doctrine in an interview on Fox News, saying, “I think we should all be fair and balanced, don’t you?”

Schumer’s comments echo other Democrats’ views on reviving the Fairness Doctrine, which would require radio stations to balance conservative hosts with liberal ones.

Asked if he is a supporter of telling radio stations what content they should have, Schumer used the fair and balanced line, claiming that critics of the Fairness Doctrine are being inconsistent.

“The very same people who don’t want the Fairness Doctrine want the FCC [Federal Communications Commission] to limit pornography on the air. I am for that… But you can’t say government hands off in one area to a commercial enterprise but you are allowed to intervene in another. That’s not consistent.”

In 2007, Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), a close ally of Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) told The Hill, “It’s time to reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine. I have this old-fashioned attitude that when Americans hear both sides of the story, they’re in a better position to make a decision.”

Senate Rules Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) last year said, “I believe very strongly that the airwaves are public and people use these airwaves for profit. But there is a responsibility to see that both sides and not just one side of the big public questions of debate of the day are aired and are aired with some modicum of fairness.”

Conservatives fear that forcing stations to make equal time for liberal talk radio would cut into profits so significantly that radio executives would opt to scale back on conservative radio programming to avoid escalating costs and interference from the FCC.

They also note that conservative radio shows has been far more successful than liberal ones.

In his Fox interview, Schumer, who heads the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, also weighed in on the election, predicting that Democrats will end up with between 56 and 58 seats in the Senate.

He also defended “card check” legislation, claiming there is a strong need to allow workers a private ballot to register their votes on whether to organize a union.
Schumer said “there has to be some counter” to the leverage businesses have, claiming “employers have every leg up on people who want to organize and that’s why union workers have gone down from about 25 percent to 6 percent [in the private sector].”

Business groups adamantly oppose the card check bill, which passed the House and fell short of the necessary votes to overcome a filibuster in the Senate.

TheHill.com - Schumer on Fox: Fairness Doctrine ‘fair and balanced’ (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/schumer-defends-fairness-doctrine-as-fair-and-balanced-2008-11-04.html)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jon: Here's the thing, if there was large scale voter fraud in the last couple elections, don't you think Bush and Gonzales etcetera would have made a huge freaking media circus about it?

Nope. When you win you don't bitch about turnovers & penalty discrepancy nearly as much.

[DaddyTorgo]

C'mon DT, you're smarter than that

Awww...thanks :D

[Fighter of Foo]

(using rcp)
9/4: McCain up 51-45 in most polls
9/29: McCain down 43-48 in most polls
11/1: McCain down 41-50 in most polls

so, when McCain was up 51-45, Palin had 25% more/19% less. When McCain was down 43-48, Palin had 25% more/32% less. When McCain dipped to 41-50, Palin had 17% more/46% less.

it seems that the economic issues and the state of the country brought down McCain's support, which (not surprisingly) decreased the amount of support for Palin.

I'm sure that happened as well. My only point of contention is the indifference numbers for Palin versus Biden or any other VP listed.

[flere-imsaho]

What exactly do you mean by "not accepting this"? Riots? A coup? Or just a long, drawn out process like we saw in 2000?

If Obama wins the popular and McCain wins the EV, and this becomes clear relatively quickly (i.e. from overnight returns), I think there will be riots.

If we have a lot of close votes like in 2000, I don't think I see the process dragging out quite as much. For one, it's not going to catch anyone by surprise this time, so the process & precedents for recounting are pretty well understood. For two, both sides are heavily lawyered up and ready to go to battle over it.

Regardless of how things go down (long/short), if Obama wins the popular and McCain wins the EV, I think there might even be a serious effort, for the first time in memory, to do away with the Electoral College.

[gstelmack]

can you point to a documented instance of that happening? let alone say...100 documented instances of that happening? or 1000? The simple fact is that you can't (okay maybe one, but what did someone post earlier...52 arrests in the last election?) IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. FRAUDULENT REGISTRATIONS /= VOTES

Now I have to go dig up the examples. There was a pretty big case here in NC back in 2000 I think where an underage kid registered at one of those "Rock the Vote" events, then actually voted (parents decided to "make a point"), and it got caught later in an audit.

I'll see if I can dig up the article. All my searches are being burned by the "Vote" links on everybody's freakin' web page, so I'm getting all these underage drinking/driving/sex articles rather than finding the underage voter...

[fantom1979]

Just because I am bored. Here are the top posters in this thread. I had to go down pretty far to get my name on the list :)

<table class="tborder" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td class="alt1">Mizzou B-ball fan (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1421) </td> <td class="alt1">782</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Flasch186 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2022) </td> <td class="alt2">677</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> JPhillips (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2419) </td> <td class="alt1">587</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> larrymcg421 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2305) </td> <td class="alt2">448</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> DaddyTorgo (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2341) </td> <td class="alt1">382</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> molson (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2378) </td> <td class="alt2">371</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> JonInMiddleGA (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=586) </td> <td class="alt1">328</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> ISiddiqui (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=688) </td> <td class="alt2">309</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Arles (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=496) </td> <td class="alt1">277</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> flere-imsaho (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3790) </td> <td class="alt2">270</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Dark Cloud (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=938) </td> <td class="alt1">237</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> ace1914 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=5636) </td> <td class="alt2">229</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Ronnie Dobbs2 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2902) </td> <td class="alt1">220</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> SFL Cat (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=444) </td> <td class="alt2">220</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Buccaneer (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=154) </td> <td class="alt1">215</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> SirFozzie (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=537) </td> <td class="alt2">199</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> sterlingice (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1959) </td> <td class="alt1">191</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> GrantDawg (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=465) </td> <td class="alt2">182</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Vegas Vic (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=765) </td> <td class="alt1">177</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Big Fo (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4100) </td> <td class="alt2">155</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Galaxy (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4239) </td> <td class="alt1">126</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Mac Howard (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=941) </td> <td class="alt2">115</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> albionmoonlight (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=99) </td> <td class="alt1">109</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Fighter of Foo (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4842) </td> <td class="alt2">106</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> cartman (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=485) </td> <td class="alt1">104</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> BrianD (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4068) </td> <td class="alt2">96</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Tigercat (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2870) </td> <td class="alt1">84</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Axxon (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=704) </td> <td class="alt2">80</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Butter_of_69 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1899) </td> <td class="alt1">79</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Galaril (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3344) </td> <td class="alt2">74</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Warhammer (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3374) </td> <td class="alt1">72</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> CamEdwards (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1925) </td> <td class="alt2">71</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> NoMyths (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=107) </td> <td class="alt1">70</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Kodos (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1037) </td> <td class="alt2">67</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> st.cronin (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3818) </td> <td class="alt1">66</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Swaggs (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=152) </td> <td class="alt2">65</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Jas_lov (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=125) </td> <td class="alt1">64</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> sabotai (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=190) </td> <td class="alt2">61</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Alan T (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2498) </td> <td class="alt1">59</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Passacaglia (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=46) </td> <td class="alt2">58</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> lungs (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2005) </td> <td class="alt1">56</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Noop (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2357) </td> <td class="alt2">53</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> lordscarlet (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4521) </td> <td class="alt1">52</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Maple Leafs (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1751) </td> <td class="alt2">50</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Chief Rum (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=52) </td> <td class="alt1">49</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Dutch (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=25) </td> <td class="alt2">48</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> miked (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1047) </td> <td class="alt1">44</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Crapshoot (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3286) </td> <td class="alt2">43</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Crim (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3257) </td> <td class="alt1">40</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Fidatelo (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2436) </td> <td class="alt2">38</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Dr. Sak (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=390) </td> <td class="alt1">37</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> astrosfan64 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3827) </td> <td class="alt2">35</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> KWhit (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2592) </td> <td class="alt1">34</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> QuikSand (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=66) </td> <td class="alt2">31</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> timmynausea (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2546) </td> <td class="alt1">31</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Daimyo (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=191) </td> <td class="alt2">29</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> DanGarion (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3156) </td> <td class="alt1">27</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Toddzilla (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=747) </td> <td class="alt2">26</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Subby (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=5) </td> <td class="alt1">26</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> stevew (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3201) </td> <td class="alt2">26</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Radii (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1111) </td> <td class="alt1">26</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> gstelmack (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=93) </td> <td class="alt2">25</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Neon_Chaos (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3848) </td> <td class="alt1">24</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> King of New York (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4748) </td> <td class="alt2">24</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Klinglerware (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3188) </td> <td class="alt1">24</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Grammaticus (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4586) </td> <td class="alt2">23</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> panerd (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1243) </td> <td class="alt1">23</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> samifan24 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=930) </td> <td class="alt2">22</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> chesapeake (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=5580) </td> <td class="alt1">22</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> rowech (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=4760) </td> <td class="alt2">21</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Anthony (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=18) </td> <td class="alt1">20</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Deattribution (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3020) </td> <td class="alt2">19</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> digamma (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1483) </td> <td class="alt1">19</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> VPI97 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=880) </td> <td class="alt2">18</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Jon (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=385) </td> <td class="alt1">18</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Groundhog (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3194) </td> <td class="alt2">18</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> fantom1979 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=6029) </td> <td class="alt1">17</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> SackAttack (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=3) </td> <td class="alt2">17</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Crim]

Maybe the legal definition differs, but it seems pretty point A to point B that a vote cast by someone after fraudulent registration would be ... umm ... fraud.

He clarified it later on, or in a different thread.

Still, though, saying that clear evidence of widespread voter registration fraud exists, but denying possibility of significant voting fraud is contortionism.

[flere-imsaho]

Of all elections, considering Obama's home state, to try to claim that isn't a long history of shenanigans? C'mon DT, you're smarter than that, surely you aren't going to claim that Richard Daley was clean just because he wasn't charged?

Yeah, but I think the point is that this hasn't happened in decades, even in Chicago.

[Fighter of Foo]

Of all elections, considering Obama's home state, to try to claim that isn't a long history of shenanigans? C'mon DT, you're smarter than that, surely you aren't going to claim that Richard Daley was clean just because he wasn't charged?

Vote early & vote often.

[DaddyTorgo]

Now I have to go dig up the examples. There was a pretty big case here in NC back in 2000 I think where an underage kid registered at one of those "Rock the Vote" events, then actually voted (parents decided to "make a point"), and it got caught later in an audit.

I'll see if I can dig up the article. All my searches are being burned by the "Vote" links on everybody's freakin' web page, so I'm getting all these underage drinking/driving/sex articles rather than finding the underage voter...

but it got caught in an audit hmm? so the system works. or did it get caught after everything had been tallied and all.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wow...I'm 5th? Really? Go me.

LOL @ my new signature

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, but I think the point is that this hasn't happened in decades, even in Chicago.

LOL. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think you believe that.
Increased subtlety (or even decreased frequency) doesn't mean doesn't happen.

[Mustang]

Vote early & vote often.

I sent out a message to my boss and the rest of our team last week that stated that due to Wisconsin law giving every worker 3 hours off to vote, I was going to vote 3 times and take the day off.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This Fairness Doctrine is one of the singularly most stupid ideas that I have heard a legislature seriously discuss. It goes against so much of what this country is about that the mind boggles.

Welcome to the new era, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Honolulu_Blue]

This Fairness Doctrine is one of the singularly most stupid ideas that I have heard a legislature seriously discuss. It goes against so much of what this country is about that the mind boggles.

Agreed.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I sent out a message to my boss and the rest of our team last week that stated that due to Wisconsin law giving every worker 3 hours off to vote, I was going to vote 3 times and take the day off.

Is your boss a Democrat or a Republican? This could have some influence on whether your offer is accepted. :D

[larrymcg421]

I am completely against the fairness doctrine and hope it doesn't get reintroduced. At the same time, I would also like all the censor happy groups to shut the fuck up and let me watch what I want on TV.

[Arles]

I really wish that Obama would win and the Republicans would take back Congress. That would be my ideal. Maybe 2010.

FWIW I've read that Obama doesn't support the thing, but time will tell.
I think an Obama WH, Dem Senate and republican house would be the best recipe for the next 8 years. I don't know if that will be possible in 2010 though.

[SirFozzie]

Nope. When you win you don't bitch about turnovers & penalty discrepancy nearly as much.


Jon: Please. with the amount of divisionary stuff the Bush folks have done, they'd have run with it for MONTHS.

[SirFozzie]

And as someone said last page, while I do not wish for any version of the Fairness Doctrine to be imposed, I cordially invite the PTC/censor groups to kindly choke on my fuck, as my friend Chris would say.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jon: Please. with the amount of divisionary stuff the Bush folks have done, they'd have run with it for MONTHS.

Eh, they've been pretty much a disappointment to me in so many ways in the past severa years, I simply don't have the confidence you do.

[sterlingice]

Jon: Please. with the amount of divisionary stuff the Bush folks have done, they'd have run with it for MONTHS.

You don't bring that up because you risk bringing up some of your own dirty tactics. If you won, you won and you don't want to look into it

SI

[gstelmack]

but it got caught in an audit hmm? so the system works. or did it get caught after everything had been tallied and all.

Can't find the article to find the exact details. But hey, you asked for one example. I was one of those that used to argue true/false questions with teachers because I could come up with obscure exceptions that would drive them nuts :D

My concern with voter fraud in this country is that it is too easy to impersonate a registered voter who is not actually intending to vote. Florida used to demand a driver's license, but here in NC I'm lucky if they even ask me to recite my address (which isn't much of a test).

I believe this has far more effect at the local level than it does at a national level. It's easy to find instances of voter counts messed up.

More votes counted than people visited polls: WTIC News/Talk 1080 - Newspaper: More Votes Cast Than Voters in Bridgeport Primary (http://www.wtic.com/pages/2407836.php)?

Dead registered voters voting:
http://www.texaswatchdog.org/2008/10/dead-voters-still-registered-in-harris-county/

Just a few examples. At a national level it all evens out.

[Dr. Sak]

I really wish that Obama would win and the Republicans would take back Congress. That would be my ideal. Maybe 2010.

I think we are better off when the majority in Congress differs from the party in the White House. It's makes it harder for either party to push their agenda and look more towards compromise.

[Klinglerware]

Just because I am bored. Here are the top posters in this thread. I had to go down pretty far to get my name on the list :)



Hey, isn't it against FOFC law to publish post counts?

[DaddyTorgo]

I am completely against the fairness doctrine and hope it doesn't get reintroduced. At the same time, I would also like all the censor happy groups to shut the fuck up and let me watch what I want on TV.


I think PETA would have a problem with some of the things you want to see done to donkeys by female midgets :lol:

[DaddyTorgo]

I think we are better off when the majority in Congress differs from the party in the White House. It's makes it harder for either party to push their agenda and look more towards compromise.

I agree, and for me I think I prefer a blue executive and red legislative. It seems set up to do the least damage. Maybe I just have fond memories of the 90s.

yes please. although i like to see balance within the legislature - i don't want to see one side with a fillibuster-proof majority either, because i want there to have to be compromise to get things done. One said narrowly ahead is okay though.

[JPhillips]

LOL. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think you believe that.
Increased subtlety (or even decreased frequency) doesn't mean doesn't happen.

It just doesn't make sense to commit fraud through registration tricks. In Indiana, based on 2004 turnout, 23000 voters would have to vote through fraudulent registrations to add just 1% to the tally. Do you really think there are 23000 people willing to risk felony arrest for such a small change in the outcome? All the while these 23000 people never talk about their plan?

Voter fraud is much easier and more likely at the ballot box/voting machine level. At least there a single person could conceivably change hundreds of votes at a time.

The real fights that make a difference are over access questions, voter ID, polling hours, absentee requirements, etc. Trying to rig a national election through individual votes in our current media environment is unlikely in the extreme.

[SirFozzie]

Phony Virginia Flier Culprit Found (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/phony-virgnia-flier-culpr_n_140739.html)

The Virginia Flier telling R's to vote today and D's to vote tommorrow was a "joke that got out of hand" and no charges will be filed.

[BrianD]

I still don't like the "stealing elections" arguments, but news out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin (one of the few blue areas in the state - big enough to shift the whole state) is that the special police task force put in place to deal with potential fraud has been mostly replaced at the last minute by a bunch of rookies. At least one 30-year veteran of the force just retired "in disgust"...so the report goes.

[lungs]

hey guys, i just got a text message that said due to all the long lines, people planning to vote for obama should vote tomorrow.

just thought i'd let everybody know. guess i'll just go sit in the tavern.

[Young Drachma]

Phony Virginia Flier Culprit Found (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/phony-virgnia-flier-culpr_n_140739.html)

The Virginia Flier telling R's to vote today and D's to vote tommorrow was a "joke that got out of hand" and no charges will be filed.

These things have been going around every election day since I was a kid, so I dunno why all of a sudden now they're getting all sensitive about it. If someone this year doesn't know when election day is, they probably shouldn't be voting.

[stevew]

Let me just say this would be an unmitigated disaster for our country if it happened. I would rather have McCain lose than this happen. I just can't see Obama supporters accepting this if it happened:



Why? They better accept it if it happens.

[Dr. Sak]

These things have been going around every election day since I was a kid, so I dunno why all of a sudden now they're getting all sensitive about it. If someone this year doesn't know when election day is, they probably shouldn't be voting.

It's like the guy on halloween that puts his head in a cut out box and writes on it....Free Mammograms. Then women getting pissed because they were duped.

[SirFozzie]

FiveThirtyEight.com: Electoral Projections Done Right: Today's Polls and Final Election Projection: Obama 349, McCain 189 (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/todays-polls-and-final-election.html#comments)

Final predictions and polls up.

The statisical model gives McCain a 1.1% chance of winning.

[rjolley]

These things have been going around every election day since I was a kid, so I dunno why all of a sudden now they're getting all sensitive about it. If someone this year doesn't know when election day is, they probably shouldn't be voting.
I don't think it's that people are getting sensitive about it all of a sudden. I think they are getting more news coverage now. I've heard about this for at least the past 2 presidential elections when I don't remember hearing much on the news about it before.

I will agree that if you don't know that today is the last day to vote in this election, especially with all of the media coverage that this election is getting, you've got issues.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

FiveThirtyEight.com: Electoral Projections Done Right: Today's Polls and Final Election Projection: Obama 349, McCain 189 (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/todays-polls-and-final-election.html#comments)

Final predictions and polls up.

The statisical model gives McCain a 1.1% chance of winning.

"So you're saying there's a chance!!!!"

[Crim]

These things have been going around every election day since I was a kid, so I dunno why all of a sudden now they're getting all sensitive about it. If someone this year doesn't know when election day is, they probably shouldn't be voting.

It's also been brought up every election day, DC, so I don't see that there's anything "all of a sudden" about the sensitivity...

[Crim]

Why? They better accept it if it happens.

But will they accept a banning?

[stevew]

But will they accept a banning?

I'm not sure. I wonder if Obama will come back bigger and stronger than evar!

[BrianD]

Anybody have any ideas on a decent TV station to watch for election coverage? I've been flipping back and forth between Fox and CNN and am getting tired of the Fox all McCain all the time reporting and the CNN all Obama all the time reporting. Does anyone report more from the middle?

[Toddzilla]

These things have been going around every election day since I was a kid, so I dunno why all of a sudden now they're getting all sensitive about it. If someone this year doesn't know when election day is, they probably shouldn't be voting.The reason they keep happening is because no one ever gets prosecuted. Harmless prank my ass. Throw one of these fuck-holes in jail for voter fraud and see if someone tries it next election.

[Alan T]

Anybody have any ideas on a decent TV station to watch for election coverage? I've been flipping back and forth between Fox and CNN and am getting tired of the Fox all McCain all the time reporting and the CNN all Obama all the time reporting. Does anyone report more from the middle?


I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

[BrianD]

I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

Seems worth a shot to me.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

Good lord.

[stevew]

MSNBC as the moderate station-lofl.

[Maple Leafs]

Anyone know of any sites or blogs that are leaking exit poll results during the day?

[Crim]

I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

Umm.


:confused:


Seriously?

[Axxon]

This Fairness Doctrine is one of the singularly most stupid ideas that I have heard a legislature seriously discuss. It goes against so much of what this country is about that the mind boggles.

+1

Just got back from voting. My place was empty, just me and one other guy. I asked and they said it was like that all morning. I guess I live in an area of apathy.

[Dr. Sak]

Anyone know of any sites or blogs that are leaking exit poll results during the day?

Down Goes Brown

[Big Fo]

I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

I go with MSNBC. Fox is a joke, CNN is so afraid of being called biased that they walk on eggshells and just let the surrogates on both sides say anything without being challenged, plus the constant schilling for Hillary during the primaries grew tiresome.

[BrianD]

CNN is so afraid of being called biased that they walk on eggshells

I think they must have gotten over that. They have spent the past few hours talking to every black voter they can find asking how wonderful it is that they can vote for Obama. That and they let their Colorado correspondent call the state for Obama already.

[Maple Leafs]

Down Goes Brown
I meant good sites.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think they must have gotten over that. They have spent the past few hours talking to every black voter they can find asking how wonderful it is that they can vote for Obama. That and they let their Colorado correspondent call the state for Obama already.

Agreed. I watched it over lunch and it might as well have been coverage of a coronation. As you mentioned, the interviews at the polling places were making me wonder if a single white person even bothered to vote today. Every single person interviewed was African-American for 45 minutes.

[Young Drachma]

I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

+1

They're not unbiased as Alan says, but I can deal with their pundits better than any of the others hands down. I just mute when I get tired of listening. I think it's because unlike the others, they actually have a deep bench of people who are actually trained at journalists and so, they tend to be a bit more evenhanded. FOX and CNN are almost entirely filled with wonks who simply have a showpony journalist as a referee. It's a far cry from the days of Bernard Shaw.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I meant good sites.

Brown Goes Down? I heard about that one on the New York Times website. It has to be good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As you mentioned, the interviews at the polling places were making me wonder if a single white person even bothered to vote today.

Well, turnout is reported lighter than expected today in some traditional (R) precincts around Atlanta. If that holds up all day, Chambliss may end up hoping he can even get to a runoff.

[miked]

Well, turnout is reported lighter than expected today in some traditional (R) precincts around Atlanta. If that holds up all day, Chambliss may end up hoping he can even get to a runoff.

WOOOOOOT! Not that I like Jim Martin, but a Chambliss loss would at least get things moving in the right direction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

WOOOOOOT! Not that I like Jim Martin, but a Chambliss loss would at least get things moving in the right direction.

In the words of Lee Corso ... Not so fast there my friend.

If Chambliss gets to a runoff he'll win, won't be enough turnout from the Obamites to give it to Martin. But at this point turnout may prevent it from going that far.

[Butter_of_69]

+1

They're not unbiased as Alan says, but I can deal with their pundits better than any of the others hands down. I just mute when I get tired of listening. I think it's because unlike the others, they actually have a deep bench of people who are actually trained at journalists and so, they tend to be a bit more evenhanded. FOX and CNN are almost entirely filled with wonks who simply have a showpony journalist as a referee. It's a far cry from the days of Bernard Shaw.

MSNBC as unbiased is a stretch, but I will be tuned into them for analysis tonight when possible.

[miked]

I definitely think Martin loses a runoff. Martin just has to hit 50.1 or something. Otherwise, 6 more years of a do-nothing senator.

[Mike D]

MSNBC as the moderate station-lofl.

+1

[Schmidty]

Well, I've been flipping between news channels, and although I dislike FoxNews, I thought it was interesting that they found some Black Panthers outside of polling places in Penn. Some guy got a camera phone vid of them with a nightstick, and "intimidating". Weird.

I'm sure the same thing has happened in reverse in the past.

[bob]

Well, turnout is reported lighter than expected today in some traditional (R) precincts around Atlanta.

That may be true, but remember that 35% of registered voters in Georgia voted before today in early voting. So any projections based exclusively on what is seen today are likely to be misleading.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm pretty sure Alan T didn't call MSNBC unbiased or neutral, just that they didn't annoy him as much as FOX & CNN.

I've been watching msnbc myself. I don't know if they are the most neutral station, but they at least irritate me less than fox (right leaning) and cnn (left leaning) seem to.

Reading comprehension, people! :D

[Lathum]

So I have a question, I'm not well versed on politics and if this came up here before I apologize.

The Wall Street Journal had a poll that showed 90% of black people supported Obama.

Is there a sentiment that Obama may win the election based solely on the color of his skin and not on the issues at hand.

Also, are alot of black people voting who otherwise wouldn't have voted just because there is a black candidate to vote for?

[flere-imsaho]

The Wall Street Journal had a poll that showed 90% of black people supported Obama.

Is there a sentiment that Obama may win the election based solely on the color of his skin and not on the issues at hand.

Also, are alot of black people voting who otherwise wouldn't have voted just because there is a black candidate to vote for?

Going entirely by recollection (so anyone can feel free to correct me with actual facts):

Obama can't win the election solely on the backs of the black vote. However, given that the black vote historically has some low turnout, a successful GOTV operation by Obama for blacks and young people should have a significant overall effect.

[Mike D]

I'm pretty sure Alan T didn't call MSNBC unbiased or neutral, just that they didn't annoy him as much as FOX & CNN.



Reading comprehension, people! :D

Nothing is unbiased or neutral. He was suggesting that MS-NBC was less biased which is laughable.

[MIJB#19]

Excuse me for asking, but... CNN is considered 'left leaning'?
I'm only familiar with their 'International' brand, but I always felt that part is 'right leaning'.

[Radii]

Excuse me for asking, but... CNN is considered 'left leaning'?
I'm only familiar with their 'International' brand, but I always felt that part is 'right leaning'.


What is considered "Left leaning" in the US would be considered crazy conservative right by a couple Canadians and Euros that I talk to consistently :D

[Klinglerware]

I'd say this might speak to the differences between our country and Europe.

That's probably true--similar to how many Europeans perceive the US Democratic Party to be fairly conservative, especially when compared to the left-leaning political parties in Europe.

For what it's worth, I do enjoy CNN International when I'm abroad since, as opposed to the US version of CNN, there is still actual news content on the international version.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm pretty sure Alan T didn't call MSNBC unbiased or neutral, just that they didn't annoy him as much as FOX & CNN.

Reading comprehension, people! :D

Yes, but his statement also indicated that CNN annoyed him due to it's left leaning reporting. CNN is middle ground compared to MSNBC. If CNN's left annoys him, MSNBC's left should drive him to suicide.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That may be true, but remember that 35% of registered voters in Georgia voted before today in early voting. So any projections based exclusively on what is seen today are likely to be misleading.

Or not, at least in terms of turnout & impact.

Consider this (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/entries/2008/11/04/lastminute_stats_say_a_nailbit.html)
A Republican-oriented number cruncher offered this look at early voting, which points to the problem the GOP may face tonight:

In 2004, white Georgians made up 71 percent of the vote. African-Americans made up 25 percent. That’s a 46 point gap. Even so, the spread between George Bush (58 percent) and John Kerry (41 percent) was only 17 points.

In early voting this year, white voters made up 60 percent of the electorate. African-Americans made up 35 percent. The 46 point spread of 2004 has been reduced to 25 points. And that reduction erases 2004 margin between Bush and Kerry.

And polling by Public Policy Polling showed Obama leading the early voting 52-47 (with McCain leading remaining likely voters 54-43). If turnout were to be significantly lighter than expected, McCain may not even hold Georgia.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Excuse me for asking, but... CNN is considered 'left leaning'?
I'm only familiar with their 'International' brand, but I always felt that part is 'right leaning'.

In the U.S, CNN jokingly has the nickname 'Clinton News Network' due to its left-leaning reporting.

[Young Drachma]

So I have a question, I'm not well versed on politics and if this came up here before I apologize.

The Wall Street Journal had a poll that showed 90% of black people supported Obama.

Is there a sentiment that Obama may win the election based solely on the color of his skin and not on the issues at hand.

Also, are alot of black people voting who otherwise wouldn't have voted just because there is a black candidate to vote for?

Blacks vote Democrat at those rates even if the candidate is white.

Obama's support among blacks and young americans is solely borne out of his own merit of convincing them he's someone worth voting for. Or you know, no more likely to be biased in the same manner that white folks who don't have to answer why they voted McCain might be doing so.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Obama's support among blacks and young americans is solely borne out of his own merit of convincing them he's someone worth voting for.

LOL.

Your point about the percentage of blacks voting (D) is well taken ... but it fails to take into account those who don't normally vote but did this year.

[Kodos]

MSNBC is definitely the most liberal -- and is my station of choice. :) CNN is my fallback position if something uninteresting is on MSNBC.

[Alan T]

Umm.


:confused:


Seriously?


Gee, didn't know this was going to be one of my biggest controversial comments of the day. I personally am fairly moderate and it is pretty tough finding a station that has no slant ever. Most of the stations in my mind lean left (as I feel msnbc does somewhat).. but it annoys me far less than CNN or FOX both of which seem to have horrible slants to them. Even though msnbc seems to lean left in my mind, they still have had quite a large amount of positive McCain coverage and comments all day today..

I haven't found a station that is more moderate to my liking yet.. (and no Fox is not it.. they are just as bad as CNN but in the opposite direction)

[Arles]

Blacks vote Democrat at those rates even if the candidate is white.
What about in the democratic primaries where blacks voted for Obama over Clinton in a 80-90% rate?

[MIJB#19]

Sounds plausible, guys. Nothing shocking compared to what 'America correspondents' usually claim.

Any ideas when first reasonable results/predictions can be expected?

[BrianD]

Nothing is unbiased or neutral. He was suggesting that MS-NBC was less biased which is laughable.

Speaking only about today and not historically...this isn't laughable. I am already seeing more analysis on both candidates and lots of gushing about McCain's recent speech. MSNBC in less than an hour has done more work from the middle than CNN did in the 4ish hours I had them on.

[Honolulu_Blue]

LOL.

Your point about the percentage of blacks voting (D) is well taken ... but it fails to take into account those who don't normally vote but did this year.

Well, isn't that the main purpose of all of this campaigning that's been going on? To mobilize your base and get people who you think will vote for you to the polls?

[Young Drachma]

LOL.

Your point about the percentage of blacks voting (D) is well taken ... but it fails to take into account those who don't normally vote but did this year.

GOTV effort + momentum. All Obama and the work they've done to get those people to come out and vote for them when they haven't/didn't/wouldn't in past races.

[Lathum]

Your point about the percentage of blacks voting (D) is well taken ... but it fails to take into account those who don't normally vote but did this year.

and I guess thats my question.

Is there a signifigantly higher number of blacks voting Obama for no other reason then the color of his skin? Blacks who ordinarily wouldn't have voted at all.

And if that is the case, do people find that disturbing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, isn't that the main purpose of all of this campaigning that's been going on? To mobilize your base and get people who you think will vote for you to the polls?

Didn't say there was anything "wrong" with it or whatever. Just saying that a claim that there isn't a significant role played by Obama's race with black voters is so laughable that it boggles the mind.

[DaddyTorgo]

In the U.S, CNN jokingly has the nickname 'Clinton News Network' due to its left-leaning reporting.

:confused:

Hadn't heard that one before. Would that make FOX = Fascists on Xtascy?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Saying that back people are voting for Obama solely because he's black has about as much truth in it as saying that people are solely voting for McCain because they are racist. I'm sure there are some folks on the fringe who are voting this way, but there are folks on the fringe who do a lot of weird things.

[Young Drachma]

and I guess thats my question.

Is there a signifigantly higher number of blacks voting Obama for no other reason then the color of his skin? Blacks who ordinarily wouldn't have voted at all.

And if that is the case, do people find that disturbing.

I'll bite.

No more disturbing than say, the legions of whites who'll vote for McCain because he represents all that is great and decent about this country. (read: he's white)

[Alan T]

Speaking only about today and not historically...this isn't laughable. I am already seeing more analysis on both candidates and lots of gushing about McCain's recent speech. MSNBC in less than an hour has done more work from the middle than CNN did in the 4ish hours I had them on.


Yeah.. I really am scratching my head reading replies from people to my comments. I really have a difficult time trying to understand when people are saying things they actually believe and when they just have an agenda they are pushing.

You asked for opinions and I gave mine.. so far I've had MSNBC on for several hours today and haven't been driven to change it because of it driving me crazy. For the most part all day, it has been fairly equal point and counter point with both sides fairly well represented.

Maybe some of MSNBC's political commentators that give their opinions on issues are far left, but they haven't been on much at all today and it has mostly been various members of Democrat or Republican sides giving talking points as well as news coverage.

[Dr. Sak]

Saying that back people are voting for Obama solely because he's black has about as much truth in it as saying that people are solely voting for McCain because they are racist. I'm sure there are some folks on the fringe who are voting this way, but there are folks on the fringe who do a lot of weird things.

Never underestimate the stupidity of an average voter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Saying that black people are voting for Obama solely because he's black

... is nothing but the unvarnished truth for those who wouldn't have otherwise voted.

[Butter_of_69]

Any ideas about when early voting ballots will be counted? Have they already been counted in most states, and that data will be available after poll closing? Or will they be counted last, or in concert with the other results in most areas? Just wondering how soon we will know exactly how early voting went in those states that have it.

[Young Drachma]

Didn't say there was anything "wrong" with it or whatever. Just saying that a claim that there isn't a significant role played by Obama's race with black voters is so laughable that it boggles the mind.

...

[Klinglerware]

and I guess thats my question.

Is there a signifigantly higher number of blacks voting Obama for no other reason then the color of his skin? Blacks who ordinarily wouldn't have voted at all.

And if that is the case, do people find that disturbing.

To rehash a post I made on this topic...

Well, to test this theory quickly with the fewest confounds, we should look at the exit poll data in races where a black republican ran against a white democrat (since historically, black voters tend to vote overwhelmingly democratic--looking at the elections of black democrats would introduce correlation between that candidate being black and that candidate being a democrat). We would compare how the black vote split in that race vs a control race (ideally, another statewide race same state, same year).

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot examples of black republicans running for major statewide office (e.g., US Senate or State Governor). But one recent example is Maryland Senate 2006, Cardin vs Steele).

First the black voting percentages for the "control" group, the Maryland Governor's race of the same year:

Black Voters Supporting the White Democrat: 84%
Black Voters Supporting the White Republican: 15%

Now for the "test" race, the Maryland Senate Race:

Black Voters Supporting the White Democrat: 74%
Black Voters Supporting the Black Republican: 25%


So, it does seem likely that the Black Republican in that race (Steele) got a significant boost from black voters who did not vote for the white republican in the other statewide race that year. However, even in the Steele-Cardin race, black voters still voted for the democrat with a 3-1 margin. So, the more significant conclusion we can draw here is that black voters will for the most part still vote on party loyalty and issues over "racial loyalty".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hadn't heard that one before.

Seriously?

Even my 10 year old knows that monicker and it's not even one I use often enough for him to pick up on it from me.

[Lathum]

I'll bite.

No more disturbing than say, the legions of whites who'll vote for McCain because he represents all that is great and decent about this country. (read: he's white)

I resent the "I'll bite" comment.

I think I was clear I was curious about peoples opinions. I'm not looking to bait anyone into any kind of argument.

[JAG]

Gee, didn't know this was going to be one of my biggest controversial comments of the day. I personally am fairly moderate and it is pretty tough finding a station that has no slant ever. Most of the stations in my mind lean left (as I feel msnbc does somewhat).. but it annoys me far less than CNN or FOX both of which seem to have horrible slants to them. Even though msnbc seems to lean left in my mind, they still have had quite a large amount of positive McCain coverage and comments all day today..

I haven't found a station that is more moderate to my liking yet.. (and no Fox is not it.. they are just as bad as CNN but in the opposite direction)

My wife takes a different approach. She watches Fox to get the right leaning slant and MSNBC to get the left leaning slant so she can see things from both polarized viewpoints (she doesn't care for CNN).

[Dr. Sak]

I resent the "I'll bite" comment.

I think I was clear I was curious about peoples opinions. I'm not looking to bait anyone into any kind of argument.

Keep to yourself next time....Stupid Mets fan ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Any ideas about when early voting ballots will be counted? Have they already been counted in most states, and that data will be available after poll closing? Or will they be counted last, or in concert with the other results in most areas? Just wondering how soon we will know exactly how early voting went in those states that have it.

I think the procedure is typically done concurrent or afterwards.
And in some cases is determined by whether it's part of "early voting" versus "absentee voting" (both took place here in Georgia for example, not sure about procedures in other states).

[GrantDawg]

Obviously we must encounter different liberals.

I run into more here (Georgia, not FOFC) who couldn't spell "drill" nor find Alaska on the map.

Case in point was the charming lady in line with my wife & I that we patiently helped understand how "all this voting stuff" worked; i.e.
"No, you're not required to vote for every office if you don't want to",
"Yes, you're allowed to vote only for President",
"This? It's called a sample ballot, it just shows you what you're going to see when you get inside"

And no, I didn't make any of those up.

I've worked elections. People like that aren't exclusive to either party. Trust me.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Never underestimate the stupidity of an average voter.

I am not sure how anyone could after 2004...

[Lathum]

Keep to yourself next time....Stupid Mets fan ;)

lol, your probably correct.

I hope DC forgives me for sticking my nose where he thinks it doesn't belong.

[Mike D]

:confused:

Hadn't heard that one before. Would that make FOX = Fascists on Xtascy?

That would actually be the opposite of Communist News Network.

[Lathum]

the above was sarcasim

[Alan T]

My wife takes a different approach. She watches Fox to get the right leaning slant and MSNBC to get the left leaning slant so she can see things from both polarized viewpoints (she doesn't care for CNN).


But that is what I have THIS thread for! :)

[Mike D]

My wife takes a different approach. She watches Fox to get the right leaning slant and MSNBC to get the left leaning slant so she can see things from both polarized viewpoints (she doesn't care for CNN).

That would be the best way to do it. The beautiful thing about American TV is that you can get bullshit from all over the spectrum and as long as the 8-1 ratio doesn't affect you, you get a much better picture of what's going on.

[Kodos]

I resent the "I'll bite" comment.

I think I was clear I was curious about peoples opinions. I'm not looking to bait anyone into any kind of argument.

Come on! Everyone knows that Werewolves are all about biting!

[Mike D]

the above was sarcasim

Kurt Warner is in trouble, he scrambles and....oh....too slow.

:)

[timmynausea]

Come on! Everyone knows that Werewolves are all about biting!

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Young Drachma]

lol, your probably correct.

I hope DC forgives me for sticking my nose where he thinks it doesn't belong.

It was the way it was phrased that made me think it was aimed as a thiny veiled race bait. Of course, you're entitled to your views and everyone is too. Wasn't trying to attack you for asking a question or anything.

[molson]

If I was a black guy, I'd definitely be leaning towards black candidates, rooting for black coaches, rooting for black actors to win academy awards, etc.

It's pretty laughable when this kind of thing is denied or questioned, though it's coming out more in the mainstream now. I don't understand the EXTREMES of it, but I appreciate the honestly. Chris Rock said something once about being a fan of the National league and hating the American league only because the former was much faster on integration. That to me, as a white guy, seems like a ridiculous opinion to have in 2008 when anybody who made integration happen or not happen is long gone, but I found his view interesting, and a guy's feelings on something aren't wrong, they're just his feelings.

[BrianD]

Yeah.. I really am scratching my head reading replies from people to my comments. I really have a difficult time trying to understand when people are saying things they actually believe and when they just have an agenda they are pushing.

You asked for opinions and I gave mine.. so far I've had MSNBC on for several hours today and haven't been driven to change it because of it driving me crazy. For the most part all day, it has been fairly equal point and counter point with both sides fairly well represented.

Maybe some of MSNBC's political commentators that give their opinions on issues are far left, but they haven't been on much at all today and it has mostly been various members of Democrat or Republican sides giving talking points as well as news coverage.

In the past I have been very unimpressed with MSNBC. I like to think of myself as mostly in the middle with a right lean, and I have easily found MSNBC to be least objectionable of the main 3 so far.

[ISiddiqui]

Tucker Carlson with an interesting article on how Romney has set up the ground work for a run in 2012:

Romney's Game Plan - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-03/romneys-game-plan/)

Seems like he thinks that right now it's going to be Romney vs. Palin as the big matchup in the primaries. But there is always someone you don't expect.

[timmynausea]

I'd be shocked if Palin was a real contender.

[Lathum]

It was the way it was phrased that made me think it was aimed as a thiny veiled race bait.

get over yourself then. Originaly I was being sarcastic but now I am offended ( as offended as one can be on an internet message board). Go through my 17K posts and find me one that even shows a borderline hint of racisim.

That the kind of shit that pisses me off ( as pissed off as you can get on an internet message board). Excuse me for being a white person wanting to have an adult discussion about a black persons motivations.

[Racer]

Sounds plausible, guys. Nothing shocking compared to what 'America correspondents' usually claim.

Any ideas when first reasonable results/predictions can be expected?

Vermont will probably be the first state called this year shortly after 7 pm EST. I think there's a decent chance that shortly after the polls close in California, Washington, and Oregon at 11 pm EST, Obama could exceed 270 electoral votes called for him.

[Young Drachma]

get over yourself then. Originaly I was being sarcastic but now I am offended ( as offended as one can be on an internet message board). Go through my 17K posts and find me one that even shows a borderline hint of racisim.

That the kind of shit that pisses me off ( as pissed off as you can get on an internet message board). Excuse me for being a white person wanting to have an adult discussion about a black persons motivations.

I think the nature of the thread is such that makes it touchy. Not because people can't think what they want. I think more because it so quickly devolves into absurdity rather than say, substantive discussions about very real topics/issues/things.

I misread what you said and apologize.

[timmynausea]

Go through my 17K posts and find me one that even shows a borderline hint of racisim.

(Insert joke about the disturbing number of times the word "lynch" appears in Lathum's 17,000 posts.)

[Lathum]

I didn't tip toe around anything, thats why I got annoyed.

And there was no point. It was a question, not a statement.

[Lathum]

(Insert joke about the disturbing number of times the word "lynch" appears in Lathum's 17,000 posts.)

I actualy laughed out loud.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd be shocked if Palin was a real contender.

I would be too, as I think she lacks what it takes to stay in that position for four years versus a contrasting Romney & a similar but much more skilled politician in Huckabee.

But (relating back to the discussion of her impact earlier), polling released yesterday (http://www.strategicvision.biz./political/georgia_poll_110308.htm)shows her as being the most popular of the four current candidates (P + VP) here in Georgia with the best margin of "favorable" vs "unfavorable" of the whole group.

Palin 49 favorable/39 unfavorable (+10%)
Obama 49/40 (+9%)
McCain 48/40 (+8%)
Biden 44/41 (+3%)

For comparison, same poll had McCain/Palin winning today with 50%, Obama/Biden 46%, Barr/Root 1%, Undecided 3%

Same group had figures for
-- Ohio, where Palin's 47/42 rivaled McCain's 48/44, and Obama's 48/43,
-- Florida where she was more popular than McCain 47/41 vs 48/43,
-- Pennsylvania Palin 47/40 vs McCain 48/42
-- Wisconsin Palin 48/43 vs McCain 47/45

Like I said, I don't believe she sticks, but I can see why she's considered a contender at least for the time being.

[Subby]

<table class="tborder" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="50%"><tbody><tr><td class="tcat" colspan="2"> Who Posted? Total Posts: 9,908
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="thead" width="100%">User Name</td> <td class="thead">Posts</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> Mizzou B-ball fan (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=1421) </td> <td class="alt1">788</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2"> Flasch186 (http://operationsports.com/fofc/member.php?u=2022) </td> <td class="alt2">677</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Awesomeness.

[Maple Leafs]

Brown Goes Down? I heard about that one on the New York Times website. It has to be good.
Or so the liberal media elites would have you believe.

(p.s. And the times had it as "Goes Down Brown")

[Dr. Sak]

Or so the liberal media elites would have you believe.

(p.s. And the times had it as "Goes Down Brown")

Shit I thought it was 2 girls 1 cup...good thing I waited to tell everyone.

[Fighter of Foo]

Those numbers don't look good for Saxby. He'll do well to avoid a runoff.

14. Do you approve or disapprove of Senator Saxby Chambliss' overall job performance?
Approve 49%
Disapprove 40%
Undecided 11%


16. If the election for United States Senate were held today, whom would you vote for, Saxby Chambliss, the Republican, Jim Martin, the Democrat, or Allen Buckley, the Libertarian?
Saxby Chambliss 48%
Jim Martin 44%
Allen Buckley 4%
Undecided 4%

[sterlingice]

Gee, didn't know this was going to be one of my biggest controversial comments of the day. I personally am fairly moderate and it is pretty tough finding a station that has no slant ever. Most of the stations in my mind lean left (as I feel msnbc does somewhat).. but it annoys me far less than CNN or FOX both of which seem to have horrible slants to them. Even though msnbc seems to lean left in my mind, they still have had quite a large amount of positive McCain coverage and comments all day today..

I haven't found a station that is more moderate to my liking yet.. (and no Fox is not it.. they are just as bad as CNN but in the opposite direction)

What really gets the right ticked at MSNBC is that they have Olbermann "as their face" who is most decidedly left and delights in taking pot shots at the right. And now they have Rachel Maddow on after him in primetime, and her show is basically a female version of his.

The station got in hot water for letting Olbermann on some of the news coverage and he started editorializing so they got rid of him and Chris Matthews, calling them too opinionated for news broadcasts.

EDIT: n/m- better to not post the 2 paragraphs I had here after this

SI

[rjolley]

and I guess thats my question.

Is there a signifigantly higher number of blacks voting Obama for no other reason then the color of his skin? Blacks who ordinarily wouldn't have voted at all.

And if that is the case, do people find that disturbing.
I think there are a lot of Black voters who wouldn't ordinarily vote going to the polls today to vote for the first Black man to run for president. But wait, he isn't the first Black person to run. Jesse Jackson did run as well and didn't mobilize Blacks to vote in the same fashion. So, part of it, for non-voters is his race and part of it is something else, maybe the party, maybe the issues, maybe a combination of those plus other things. For other Blacks, it has more to do with his policies and his party. And there are Blacks who will not vote for him at all.

It disturbs me if people are unrealistic about what Obama will be able to do if he wins. All of this talk about how an individual thinks life will be instantly better if he's in office is absolutely nuts. These people are the minority and on the fringe of the voting spectrum, just like the people who say Obama being elected will lead to the US being destroyed, but is still disheartening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Those numbers don't look good for Saxby. He'll do well to avoid a runoff.

Was there anyone still expecting him to avoid a runoff? I thought that had been the foregone conclusion for at least 2-3 weeks.

For him though, as discussed earlier, a runoff is almost as good as a win.
Thing is, he's got to at least get enough turnout to get the runoff & that's at least looking iffy right now. It may come down to turnout in the rural counties & I don't know if there are enough votes there to make up for a (hypothetical) downturn in metro GOP areas.

[larrymcg421]

To rehash a post I made on this topic...

You make an interesting point, but it is worth noting that Steele was actively campaigning for the African-American vote, certainly moreso than his Republican counterpart.

There were two other races that year that featured similar racial breakdowns, but the difference in black support was much smaller...

Ohio

Blackwell - 20% Black
DeWine - 15% Black

Pennsylvania

Swann - 13% Black
Santorum - 10% Black

[SirFozzie]

The common wisdom is that if Virginia is called within the first hour or so after polls close, that it'll be pretty much over. Same with Pennsylvania.

[sterlingice]

Tucker Carlson with an interesting article on how Romney has set up the ground work for a run in 2012:

Romney's Game Plan - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-03/romneys-game-plan/)

Seems like he thinks that right now it's going to be Romney vs. Palin as the big matchup in the primaries. But there is always someone you don't expect.

Like 4 years for things to drastically change in people's minds :D

SI

[larrymcg421]

I guess I can see why some people got annoyed, although I do believe it wasn't intentional.

Imagine if the question was asked: "So Obama is going to win 90% of the black vote, 70% of the Hispanic vote, and 60% of the female vote. If McCain still wins, will people be annoyed that white males gave him the Presidency?"

[Klinglerware]

You make an interesting point, but it is worth noting that Steele was actively campaigning for the African-American vote, certainly moreso than his Republican counterpart.

There were two other races that year that featured similar racial breakdowns, but the difference in black support was much smaller...

Ohio

Blackwell - 20% Black
DeWine - 15% Black

Pennsylvania

Swann - 13% Black
Santorum - 10% Black

And that supports my overall point that the effect of "black voters voting for a black candidate just because he's black" is not really that significant compared to "black voters voting for a democrat because democrats are more aligned on issues black voters care about".

[Mike D]

What really gets the right ticked at MSNBC is that they have Olbermann "as their face" who is most decidedly left and delights in taking pot shots at the right. And now they have Rachel Maddow on after him in primetime, and her show is basically a female version of his.

The station got in hot water for letting Olbermann on some of the news coverage and he started editorializing so they got rid of him and Chris Matthews, calling them too opinionated for news broadcasts.

SI

Keith Olberman? That's the guy that was fired from ESPN right? He bashes Republicans now? Haha! What a loser!

[SirFozzie]

Keith Olberman? That's the guy that was fired from ESPN right? He bashes Republicans now? Haha! What a loser!

As well as a host on NBC's sunday night football show, but who's counting.

[rjolley]

I think it's the trifecta of

1. Democrat
2. Black
3. Electable

If one of those is missing, you don't see this larger black turnout.
Yep, exactly. If you move Obama to the other party, I don't think the turnout is as big for Black voters. Sure, there will be some who turn out just because he's Black and electable, but not nearly as many.

[larrymcg421]

Oh, and to answer the earlier question about why Obama won the black vote in the primaries, part of it was probably the fact that Hillary (with Bill's help) didn't really endear herself to African-Americans the way she ran her campaign.

[sterlingice]

As well as a host on NBC's sunday night football show, but who's counting.

(and keeps beating O'Reilly in the 25-54 demographic for their time slot, but, again, who's counting)

SI

[Fighter of Foo]

Was there anyone still expecting him to avoid a runoff? I thought that had been the foregone conclusion for at least 2-3 weeks.

For him though, as discussed earlier, a runoff is almost as good as a win.
Thing is, he's got to at least get enough turnout to get the runoff & that's at least looking iffy right now. It may come down to turnout in the rural counties & I don't know if there are enough votes there to make up for a (hypothetical) downturn in metro GOP areas.

Yeah, I didn't realize there was a Lib running so "strongly". What I noticed in those polls was the fact that he was only at 49-50%. The Incumbent Rule (http://thehill.com/mark-mellman/incumbent-rule-broken-sometimes-2006-10-11.html) says undecideds typically break 3 or 4:1 for the challenger. Combined with the high early turnout (hypothetical for Obama) and what you say above, it's not a pretty picture.

I wouldn't be so sure about Chambliss winning a runoff either. You'll have Obama literally travelling the state with Martin as well as millions of DNC money coming in, especially if it's the difference in 59 and 60.

Odds haven't moved on Intrade yet. Both Obama and Martin in GA are still 30/70 underdogs. I bought into this when it was about 10 points lower a few weeks ago, but like I said in another thread this is good value as the race is a coinflip.

[Big Fo]

Voting Machines Elect One Of Their Own As President (the Onion) (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/voting_machines_elect_one_of)

One of the more likely scenarios for a third-party candidate to shock the nation.

[spleen1015]

Keith Olberman? That's the guy that was fired from ESPN right? He bashes Republicans now? Haha! What a loser!

He didn't get fired. He left ESPN for MSNBC.

[sabotai]

I watch MSNBC (and CNBC) because they have the hottest women (except Rachel Maddow, she's not very hot, but the rest are)

[Big Fo]

I watch MSNBC (and CNBC) because they have the hottest women (except Rachel Maddow, she's not very hot, but the rest are)

It's always nice when they bring Erin Brunett over from CNBC for an interview.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wouldn't be so sure about Chambliss winning a runoff either. You'll have Obama literally travelling the state with Martin as well as millions of DNC money coming in, especially if it's the difference in 59 and 60.

Obama could travel the state handing out a billion dollars cash & you still wouldn't get black voters to turn out for a statewide run off here.

Only scenario where Chambliss loses a run off is if the (R) voters are even more disheartened than they already are. I can see where a filibuster proof D majority in the Senate (without this race) could do that but otherwise, having already dealt with the loss & it's likely ramifications I don't see the mood getting much worse than it already is.

[sabotai]

Voting Machines Elect One Of Their Own As President (the Onion) (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/voting_machines_elect_one_of)

One of the more likely scenarios for a third-party candidate to shock the nation.

The ending to that was awesome.

[Fighter of Foo]

Obama could travel the state handing out a billion dollars cash & you still wouldn't get black voters to turn out for a statewide run off here.

Really? Why not? Obama himself going down and saying, vote for Martin, I'm going to do (insert pol speak here) with his help won't work?

I'm confused.

[SirFozzie]

Looks like the Philly/Black Panther thing was no big deal after all

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Man asked to leave Philly polling place « - Blogs from CNN.com (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/04/man-asked-to-leave-philly-polling-place/)

[rjolley]

Obama could travel the state handing out a billion dollars cash & you still wouldn't get black voters to turn out for a statewide run off here.

Only scenario where Chambliss loses a run off is if the (R) voters are even more disheartened than they already are. I can see where a filibuster proof D majority in the Senate (without this race) could do that but otherwise, having already dealt with the loss & it's likely ramifications I don't see the mood getting much worse than it already is.
I'm sorry, but if Obama came to me and gave me a billion dollars cash to vote for Martin....I'm voting for Martin for everything I can.

[larrymcg421]

In a runoff, if the Dems have 58 Senators, Martin wins. If the Dems have 59 Senators, Chambliss wins.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Really? Why not? Obama himself going down and saying, vote for Martin, I'm going to do (insert pol speak here) with his help won't work? I'm confused.

Wouldn't make a damn.

-- Martin ain't Obama

-- Obama appears to have worked a near miracle in generating the turnout he got. Lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place that often.

-- Most importantly, watch the vote count tonight at the top of the ballot vs the Senate race just a spot or two down (One spot lower maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head). See the gap in votes cast, realize the number of people who didn't give a big enough shit about Chambliss v Martin while they had the ballot in front of them to cast a vote. You really think they're making another trip to the polls for that race?

[gstelmack]

Voting Machines Elect One Of Their Own As President (the Onion) (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/voting_machines_elect_one_of)

One of the more likely scenarios for a third-party candidate to shock the nation.

Best political story of the season. Some of the tickers at the bottom were priceless...

[flere-imsaho]

The common wisdom is that if Virginia is called within the first hour or so after polls close, that it'll be pretty much over. Same with Pennsylvania.

The way I see it:

Pennsylvania goes Obama: Obama fans can be cautiously optimistic.

Pennsylvania goes McCain: McCain fans can be uncautiously optimistic.

Virginia goes McCain: McCain fans can be cautiously optimistic.

Virginia goes Obama: Obama fans can be uncautiously optimistic.


And given that it looks like Virginia ballot-counting might now drag on:

North Carolina goes Obama: Obama fans can go wildly optimistic and start rioting in Chicago. I can go to sleep (providing the little one cooperates).

[sterlingice]

Voting Machines Elect One Of Their Own As President (the Onion) (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/voting_machines_elect_one_of)

One of the more likely scenarios for a third-party candidate to shock the nation.

Awesome :D

SI

[SirFozzie]

Here's an interesting article from an election official. Kinda interesting to see all the behind the scenes stuff that goes on.

The True Confessions of an Election Official • The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/04/peo_pete_inside_the_election_machine/)

[Autumn]

I think the "people voting for Obama because he's black" sentiment (and I imagine that affects not just black voters) is more along the lines of "people voting for McCain because he's a maverick" factor. People make up their minds, or get excited about, candidates for a variety of vague psychological reasons. Most of them don't look hard at the issues. Little phrases or thoughts like this that gain momentum get people's votes.

[Arles]

(and keeps beating O'Reilly in the 25-54 demographic for their time slot, but, again, who's counting)

SI
This was an interesting note on the Huffington Post (I take it that was your source). The problem was they cherry picked a week when O'Reilly was on vacation and not hosting (1st week of June). Here's the info:

MSNBC’s “Countdown with Keith Olbermann” averaged 477,000 viewers in the age 25 to 54 demographic during the first week of June, narrowly edging out Fox News’ “The O’Reilly Factor,” which averaged 472,000 in that demo, according to Nielsen Media Research.
For the month of June, O’Reilly beat out Olbermann in the 25 to 54 demographic, averaging 534,000 viewers to 408,000 for “Countdown.” In total viewers, “The Factor” was the leading program on cable news, averaging 2,497,000 viewers a night, while “Countdown” had less than half that many, 1,098,000.

Just adding a little balance (and I don't watch either program, just wanted to correct the record ;) ).

[lordscarlet]

OK, I give up, I can't read all the posts I missed. :) I got through some of them, though.

Obama supports an eight team college football playoff. I'm ready to vote for change.

I sent Wade a text with that one - Go Obama!

I also cheered for McCain saying, "He. Could. Go. All. The. Way!" That was a great line.

It's decided now. The Redskins lost, Obama wins. The rest is just formality.

Hey, Obama wants an NCAA football playoff so that is a plus in my eyes.

+1

Y'know, that was pretty much uncalled for.



+1

I never said the election would be stolen, flere, or that McCain would win. I responded to the "If Obama wins by 7, oversampled his votes, blah blah" joke, because I do believe that there is voter fraud going on.

I believe that it happens in both directions, but is much more prevalent on the Democrat side.

You have misinterpreted me.

Why do you believe it is much more prevalent on the Dem side? There are heaps of examples (from biased groups) that there was widespread fraud on the Republican side in 2004. I think it's pretty much equal (with no statistical evidence).

-----

OK. So, I voted for Obama. I am somewhat hoping that he loses so that people saying there will be riots are proven wrong. Maybe I am just a liberal (although I'm not very liberal) jumping on the bandwagon, but that claim seems incredibly racist to me.

[GrantDawg]

He didn't get fired. He left ESPN for MSNBC.


No, he left to go to Fox Sports, but it was an ugly leave.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081103/D9478CM05.html

Giant banners unfolding up Rockefeller Plaza? WTF?

I had to read this twice to make sure it was from The Onion.

[Honolulu_Blue]

For the month of June, O’Reilly beat out Olbermann in the 25 to 54 demographic, averaging 534,000 viewers to 408,000 for “Countdown.” In total viewers, “The Factor” was the leading program on cable news, averaging 2,497,000 viewers a night, while “Countdown” had less than half that many, 1,098,000.

Just adding a little balance (and I don't watch either program, just wanted to correct the record ;) ).

This is not surprising. Conservative talk show hosts (or whatever you want to call O'Reilly and Olbermann) always do better than liberal talk show hosts.

[Fighter of Foo]

-- Most importantly, watch the vote count tonight at the top of the ballot vs the Senate race just a spot or two down (One spot lower maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head). See the gap in votes cast, realize the number of people who didn't give a big enough shit about Chambliss v Martin while they had the ballot in front of them to cast a vote. You really think they're making another trip to the polls for that race?

If you're right about the first part, the second part will definitely be true. I just can't picture significant numbers of first-time political voters/Obama supporters ditching the rest of their ballots (and/or voting significant R).

I'll watch for those totals tonight.

[Arles]

Looks like the Philly/Black Panther thing was no big deal after all

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Man asked to leave Philly polling place « - Blogs from CNN.com (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/04/man-asked-to-leave-philly-polling-place/)
How so? The two were able to intimidate voters for hours (check out the video on Fox). I take it if a few hooligans were standing in front of polls with KKK garb and a club all morning and afternoon, you would be OK with it as long as they left by 2-3 PM?

[sterlingice]

This was an interesting note on the Huffington Post (I take it that was your source). The problem was they cherry picked a week when O'Reilly was on vacation and not hosting (1st week of June). Here's the info:

Nah, it's actually been over the past couple of weeks. Olbermann has been touting it on his show and O'Reilly even made some comments on his about how the process was flawed. Which, of course, Olbermann played up to make O'Reilly look like a conspiratorial nut.

SI

[Honolulu_Blue]

How so? The two were able to intimidate voters for hours (check out the video on Fox). I take it if a few hooligans were standing in front of polls with KKK garb and a club all morning and afternoon, you would be OK with it as long as they left by 2-3 PM?

Stop being silly. He never said he was "OK with it", he just said it was "no big deal."

In fact, his direct quote in response to the story was:

If true, throw em in jail, throw away the key, but I'm not going to trust internet rumor.

The "no big deal" comment was in regards to the fact that the Philadelphia District Attorney's office, said the office is not investigating the matter, calling it a "non-incident." Abookire says, "We have had no complaints from any voters that they have been intimidated."

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just can't picture significant numbers of first-time political voters/Obama supporters ditching the rest of their ballots (and/or voting significant R). I'll watch for those totals tonight.

I'll give you a benchmark to work from,
Bush/Gore and Miller/Mattingly from 2000.
2,583,208 Presidential votes cast in GA, 2,428,242 Senate votes cast.
About 6% fewer.

Bush/Kerry and Isaakson/Majette from 2004
3,298,798 Pres. votes in GA, 3,220,951 Senate votes cast
About 2.3% fewer.

I'll predict tonight's number is closer to 10% than 6%.

[Dr. Sak]

Not sure if anyone cares but....

I just votes...during the primaries I voted at 6pm and i was voter #129

Today I voted at approximately 445pm...and I was #1232

[Fighter of Foo]

I'll give you a benchmark to work from,
Bush/Gore and Miller/Mattingly from 2000.
2,583,208 Presidential votes cast in GA, 2,428,242 Senate votes cast.
About 6% fewer.

Bush/Kerry and Isaakson/Majette from 2004
3,298,798 Pres. votes in GA, 3,220,951 Senate votes cast
About 2.3% fewer.

I'll predict tonight's number is closer to 10% than 6%.

Thank you

[Pumpy Tudors]

so who won

[GrantDawg]

so who won



I did.

[Greyroofoo]

so who won

corporations

[JonInMiddleGA]

so who won

The terrorists.
And people who hate kittens.

[Pumpy Tudors]

cool i'm going to sleep now

i'm still at work though so i'll be under my desk. someone call me in like 6 hours so i can get up and go home

aight peace

[Greyroofoo]

cool i'm going to sleep now

i'm still at work though so i'll be under my desk. someone call me in like 6 hours so i can get up and go home

aight peace

what do you want me to call you?

[Pumpy Tudors]

what do you want me to call you?
sexy chester pls thx

[Mustang]

From a local article (Sheboygan)

'“I just like the way (Obama) presents himself, his ideas,” said Eisold, who voted for Bush four years ago. “Something about John McCain — I don’t know. If you run for president three, four times and you don’t get it, there’s got to be something wrong. … I just don’t think with McCain it would change at all.”

Um.. huh? I miss something???

Far as I know, he ran in 2000 in the Republican primaries and was a possible VP selection in 96.

[Logan]

what do you want me to call you?

Barack?

[Crim]

My wife takes a different approach. She watches Fox to get the right leaning slant and MSNBC to get the left leaning slant so she can see things from both polarized viewpoints (she doesn't care for CNN).

Actually, this isn't far from what I do. I watch Fox primarily, but turn it over to MSNBC from time to time, because I know that there are stories unflattering to the Republicans which won't get much or any coverage on Fox.

That said, Olberman is barely tolerable most nights, and really I only "enjoy" watching him when he's on one of his "I'm right you're wrong, conservatives are evil and it's patently obvious" rants, and shaking, and gritting his teeth.

The short haired annoying as hell sarcastic mean spirited bitch that follows his show is thoroughly unwatchable though, not even for amusement sake.

[Crim]

get over yourself then. Originaly I was being sarcastic but now I am offended ( as offended as one can be on an internet message board). Go through my 17K posts and find me one that even shows a borderline hint of racisim.

That the kind of shit that pisses me off ( as pissed off as you can get on an internet message board). Excuse me for being a white person wanting to have an adult discussion about a black persons motivations.

Dayum.

(as dayum as you can get on an internet message board)

[Crim]

(Insert joke about the disturbing number of times the word "lynch" appears in Lathum's 17,000 posts.)

My 6 and 4 year old daughters came into the room and asked me just now what was so funny. I am unable to explain the joke to them.

[SirFozzie]

Ping Arlie:

Would you like your crow baked or fried? And will you, Fox and Drudge be dining together or seperately? (oh, and for your KKK reference, seems the place he was at is in a 95% black district, so if anything, he was disenfranchising blacks, not whites)

Ben Smith's Blog: Panther vs. Obama - Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1108/Panther_vs_Obama.html#comments)

But a reader sends over a link to clinch the deal: The Panther in question appears to be one King Shamir Shabazz -- and he's no Obama supporter.

"[Obama] is a puppet on a string. I don't support no black man running for white politics. I will not vote for who will be the next slavemaster," he told the Philadelphia Daily News a few days ago, one of the least crazy things he said amid some straightforwardly racist riffs.

[SirFozzie]

CNN had the first preliminary results from counties in Indiana (Obama slight lead), and Kentucky (MCCain, decent lead) that polls closed in at 6:00 PM. It has begun.

[Galaxy]

Who do you think has the best, unbiased, and most exciting coverage to watch? It's not the same without Russert.

[larnott]

Vigo County, Indiana.

In 2004, Bush won the county 53/46.

This year, with 69% of precincts reporting so far, Obama is up by 15.

According to Wiki, "the county is one of the best bellwether regions for voting U.S. presidential elections; it has voted for the winning candidate in every election since 1960".

Bodes VERY well for Indiana.

[mauchow]

So far it's close.

[Galaxy]

CNN calls Kentucky for McCain, Vermont for Obama.

[SirFozzie]

8-3 McCain in electoral votes for those two states

[Galaxy]

I feel like I'm watching the NFL Draft. :)

[GrantDawg]

The old guy on the board at CNN, yeah, he needs to go. I can't watch that with his annoying presentation style.

[Galaxy]

Who won the Virginia Senate seat?