Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[BrianD]

well I guess they couldve dropped the whole "private" charade and my brain would be able to put an equals sign after it...thats where Im having the discombobulation. You can't rewind the clock though so perhaps a pass is in order as youre right, all other families have been on stage too.

I would say that the line is crossed as soon as someone starts speaking. If any child of a candidate steps up to a microphone to say anything or gives a speech to a small gathering, that would change things from being private. Being visible doesn't make that change since the kids have no choice there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll just go back to the original (far as I can tell) reference to "urban" areas to make an observation on that sub-topic.

Problem with this is, they consider places like Knoxville, TN as urban. Its not.

Perhaps the distinction you're making here is to some extent "urban" vs "urbane"? I believe that's definitely happening at least subconsciously elsewhere in the thread.

Meanwhile, trying to define "urban" gets into a real quaqmire since different definitions exist for various uses, not to mention all the various sub-categories such as "urbanized area", "metropolitan statistical area", not to mention lesser used terms like "conurbation" (which you could apply with regard to groupings such as MSA's fairly often).

Ultimately what I think you were really getting at was really more about mindset than a geographical or population density term.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I would say that the line is crossed as soon as someone starts speaking. If any child of a candidate steps up to a microphone to say anything or gives a speech to a small gathering, that would change things from being private. Being visible doesn't make that change since the kids have no choice there.

Well, the Obama kids held some microphones and talked on-stage. At least his youngest daughter knew the difference between Kansas City and St. Louis. :D

[Flasch186]

an article on fact checking from some of the speeches:

Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check)

[Flasch186]

Biden reiterates that critiques of the Palin family are off limits:

Palin and her husband, Todd, announced this week that their 17-year-old unmarried daughter was pregnant and would be marrying her boyfriend, saying they were making a private matter public because of Internet rumors. Biden said the Democratic campaign was not criticizing Palin over her family.

"It is off limits to talk about her family," Biden said in an interview with "Fox and Friends" on Fox News Channel. "Every family has difficulty as they're raising their children. I think the way she's handled it has been absolutely exemplary."

McCain to give big speech on rebuilt stage - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp)

[DaddyTorgo]

an article on fact checking from some of the speeches:

Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check)

that article is great. i particularly like the last two massive lies.

[DaddyTorgo]

kudos - classy move by biden there

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

that article is great. i particularly like the last two massive lies.

I question the intelligence of the writer of that article for even including the Huckabee comment that you said was a 'massive lie'. It was a ridiculous overexaggeration that was meant to draw laughs and little more. It was never intended to be fully truthful, but rather to point out that Biden's presidential bid failed miserably. A writer who didn't detect the dripping sarcasm needs his sense of humor examined.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

kudos - classy move by biden there

He's washing his hands of the issue while allowing the media and blogsphere to do the dirty work for him. Must have been a tough move to make.

[Flasch186]

intelligence or humor, which one needs to be examined?

How can anyone, right or left control the internet or blogosphere?

[DaddyTorgo]

He's washing his hands of the issue while allowing the media and blogsphere to do the dirty work for him. Must have been a tough move to make.

it was the right move to make. and for you to pretend that a republican in the same position wouldn't have done the same thing is ludicrous. in fact, any politician would have done the same thing. just saying it's classy of him (and obama) to come out and say that again.

it's more than mccain and the other republican candidates did during the whole "wright issue" IIRC.

[Flasch186]

I dont think those two issues equate.

Her church and his church do and the statements of their respective preachers, do, but not church to children.

[DaddyTorgo]

I dont think those two issues equate.

Her church and his church do and the statements of their respective preachers, do, but not church to children.

i could argue differently for hours -- that both are essentially "private matters" and that insofar as someone wants to argue that the statements of someone at the church he goes to demonstrate what kind of person he is or what kind of leader he would be, the conduct of, and parenting of one's own children offer an equally insightful (and honestly probably more meaningful) view of what kind of person they are, and in particular of what kind of leader they would be. Something along the lines of: being a leader of a country has far more in common with being a mother/father (note the distinct lack of gender-bias) of a family and raising your children than it does with sitting passively in a seat for an hour a week listening to somebody else you have literally no control over.

[Greyroofoo]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2008/09/custom_1220381941522_palin.jpg

Good thing we never saw Hilary in this outfit.

[Flasch186]

if that's real....then at least she's even patriotic in her swimwear!


and now the thread just became NSFW

[Alan T]

What better?

Palin patriotic undies or Skydog patriotic undies?

[DaddyTorgo]

is that person behind her smoking drinking a beer? are they underage? sure looks to be a yes to both questions - i'd be curious

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wow, this didn't take long. Rasmussen poll already showing a backlash to the media's treatment of Palin and her family. I predicted earlier in this thread that it could be an issue for Democrats. Just didn't think the backlash would occur this quickly............

Poll: 51 percent say reporters are trying to hurt Palin - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/palinmedia20080904)

Also, a comment in regards to the picture of Palin a couple of posts above. I'm sure there will be tons of photoshopped photos like that in the coming weeks. If the left wing bloggers and internet supporters think that will help their candidate's cause, they're sorely mistaken. That kind of attack to paint her as a white-trash gun-toting beauty queen is going to fall flat on its face. Women will see it as an attack on them and degrading to their sex.

[Flasch186]

is that poll a rolling average?

[JPhillips]

MBBF: The voice of downtrodden women everywhere.

[Greyroofoo]

I know its fake(if snopes is anything to go by) but I think its funny anyways.

[Alan T]

i could argue differently for hours -- that both are essentially "private matters" and that insofar as someone wants to argue that the statements of someone at the church he goes to demonstrate what kind of person he is or what kind of leader he would be, the conduct of, and parenting of one's own children offer an equally insightful (and honestly probably more meaningful) view of what kind of person they are, and in particular of what kind of leader they would be. Something along the lines of: being a leader of a country has far more in common with being a mother/father (note the distinct lack of gender-bias) of a family and raising your children than it does with sitting passively in a seat for an hour a week listening to somebody else you have literally no control over.


Politically speaking, I don't think that how good of a father someone is or is not has ever been a criteria for any of the previous presidential elections. It only becomes one now because Palin is female. Being a political moderate, I can only speak for myself, but how good or bad of a parent someone is , really is not one of my top concerns in choosing who I am going to vote for.

Discussing what groups or organizations that the candidate willingly chose to be involved with however leads to a discussion of actions displaying their ideology. This includes churches that they choose to attend as it is the candidate's choice to choose which church they go to, what that church's fundamental belief is and by attending that particular church it leads to an action displaying not only what that candidate also believes, but what might shape their future goals.

I think enough has been said about Obama's church in the past so won't really go into more details here on that. As far as Palin's church, it really is a non-issue with me as well. She goes to a very ultra-conservative religious right type of church. The things that have been reported as having been said by the pastor of that church is no different then what I hear many other of the far religious right having said. (The Kenneth Copeland types). It obviously is not mainstream, but it also should not be suprising or shocking.

Just as with Obama's pastor having said things that might be shocking to "white america", I would only happen to guess that it is something that is fairly often said in ultra-radical left leaning groups as well. Unless you are a part of that life, you probably don't hear it often so it becomes shocking when it suddenly gets alot of spotlight.

Like it or not, but it is very obvious that Palin is the VP choice of the far-right, her political leanings, her social leanings and her religious leanings all echo that. None of what her pastor says should be a shock for anyone. If they are suprised by it, then they just haven't read up enough on the radical-right leaning religious groups.

Somewhere in between these two radical groups is the other 65% of the american population that unfortunately has to choose between radical right and radical left. :)

[ace1914]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2008/09/custom_1220381941522_palin.jpg

Good thing we never saw Hilary in this outfit.


Could you please stop posting sexist pictures of our (R) VP nominee please. You need to post pictures of Biden by the pool to be fair.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wow, this didn't take long. Rasmussen poll already showing a backlash to the media's treatment of Palin and her family. I predicted earlier in this thread that it could be an issue for Democrats. Just didn't think the backlash would occur this quickly............

Poll: 51 percent say reporters are trying to hurt Palin - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/palinmedia20080904)




Some key points you left out


Over half of U.S. voters (51%) think reporters are trying to hurt Sarah Palin with their news coverage, and 24% say those stories make them more likely to vote for Republican presidential candidate John McCain in November.

In the new survey, while 24% are more likely to vote for Palin due to recent news coverage, 19% say the opposite and 54% say the stories have no impact on their votes.

35% believe reporters are providing unbiased coverage.

Among unaffiliated voters, 49% say reporters are trying to hurt Palin, while 32% say their coverage is unbiased. Only five percent (5%) say reporters are trying to help her.

[larrymcg421]

Could you please stop posting sexist pictures of our (R) VP nominee please. You need to post pictures of Biden by the pool to be fair.

I think we can all come together, across party lines, and agree that no such pictures should be posted anywhere ever.

[Logan]

That picture is a photoshop if any is actually taking it seriously.

Damn, who did I just rub one out to then?

[DaddyTorgo]

Damn, who did I just rub one out to then?

I heard it was your mom.

[Galaxy]

Alaska looks pretty warm and lush in that picture. :)

[Subby]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/208036176_05fcaef86c.jpg?v=0

elizabeth - american flag bikini rifle on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorcasino/208036176/)

[KWhit]

That was a pretty good Photoshop, though.

[JediKooter]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2008/09/custom_1220381941522_palin.jpg

Good thing we never saw Hilary in this outfit.

The real tragedy of this picture is, the dude looks like he's drinking Schlitz...

[Deattribution]

Could you please stop posting sexist pictures of our (R) VP nominee please. You need to post pictures of Biden by the pool to be fair.

In the interest of being fair...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Deattribution/bb.jpg



(and yes, I suck at photoshop but it was quick work)

[Kodos]

Obama drinks Schlitz? That does it. I am throwing my vote away on a third-party candidate.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Article about fundraising today in the Wall Street Journal. While the majority of the article details a new fundraising campaign by McCain, there are a couple of interesting notes regarding the Obama war chest.

1. It appears that 2/3rds of Obama's original $150M in funds has already been spent. Cash on hand in the Obama campaign is now less than what McCain has.

2. The Obama campaign is spending more money than they are taking in at this point.

McCain Top Fund-Raisers Set New Target - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB122048260041496857.html?mod=special_page_campaign2008_leftbox)

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... that is interesting. It seems Obama's greatest asset in the campaign may not be what it was assumed to be.

[Young Drachma]

Politics and Power Blog: vanityfair.com (http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/09/cindy-mccains-300000-outfit.html)

[Young Drachma]

Article about fundraising today in the Wall Street Journal. While the majority of the article details a new fundraising campaign by McCain, there are a couple of interesting notes regarding the Obama war chest.

1. It appears that 2/3rds of Obama's original $150M in funds has already been spent. Cash on hand in the Obama campaign is now less than what McCain has.

2. The Obama campaign is spending more money than they are taking in at this point.

McCain Top Fund-Raisers Set New Target - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB122048260041496857.html?mod=special_page_campaign2008_leftbox)

They'll get their ATM machine fired up again for the last stretch of the race. No way the people they've stoked up are gonna quit now. The last 45 days of this race are gonna be nothing like we've seen before.

[larrymcg421]

I think it is telling that the Dems are targeting $220 million, while the GOP is looking to get $100 million.

[gstelmack]

Politics and Power Blog: vanityfair.com (http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/09/cindy-mccains-300000-outfit.html)

Boy there are a lot of assumptions in that thar article...

[JPhillips]

Article about fundraising today in the Wall Street Journal. While the majority of the article details a new fundraising campaign by McCain, there are a couple of interesting notes regarding the Obama war chest.

1. It appears that 2/3rds of Obama's original $150M in funds has already been spent. Cash on hand in the Obama campaign is now less than what McCain has.

2. The Obama campaign is spending more money than they are taking in at this point.

McCain Top Fund-Raisers Set New Target - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB122048260041496857.html?mod=special_page_campaign2008_leftbox)

1) Funds for the primary had to be spent before the end of the convention. It's not a surprise that he spent that much in July.

2) Remember those numbers are as of July. They had to get to zero in primary funds as of the end of August and I'd bet they pre-paid a lot of organizing costs to cover the whole election so that general election funds could be better targeted.

Obama/DNC won't have a huge advantage on McCain/RNC in funding, but any story on spending has to mention the legal restrictions on primary vs. general election money.

[JPhillips]

dola. Without comment.

Georgia Republican Rep. Lynn Westmoreland used the racially-tinged term "uppity" to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Thursday.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama.

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”

[Galaxy]

Does every penny have to be spent by election day for candidates? What happens if they have left over money?

[Logan]

racially-tinged term "uppity"

My head just exploded.

[DaddyTorgo]

My head just exploded.

in shock that he said that, or because you think it's much-ado about nothing? please clarify

[BrianD]

Biden reiterates that critiques of the Palin family are off limits:]

I applaud him for this. The family...especially the under-age members of the family should be off limits. Hopefully more people answer questions in this way so the reporters stop asking the questions.

He's washing his hands of the issue while allowing the media and blogsphere to do the dirty work for him. Must have been a tough move to make.

This equivocation sucks. He said the right and proper thing. Anything anyone else is going to do is on them and belongs in a separate criticism.

[Logan]

in shock that he said that, or because you think it's much-ado about nothing? please clarify

I had no idea that had a negative black connotation (my complete ignorance thought if anything, it's something said about rich white folks). But I did find it as like the fourth listing on dictionary.com, so apparently it is something that's bad to say.

[DaddyTorgo]

I had no idea that had a negative black connotation (my complete ignorance thought if anything, it's something said about rich white folks). But I did find it as like the fourth listing on dictionary.com, so apparently it is something that's bad to say.

in common usage it pretty much goes hand-in-hand with the n-word. as in "uppity n*(#$#"

[Alan T]

I had no idea that had a negative black connotation (my complete ignorance thought if anything, it's something said about rich white folks). But I did find it as like the fourth listing on dictionary.com, so apparently it is something that's bad to say.

I'm in the same boat as you and I grew up in the south (that is if you consider the metro-Atlanta area "south" which many wouldn't.) I had always viewed the word "uppity" more along the lines of hmmm.. how Hugh Grant acts in every one of his boring movies.

I guess I would view calling someone "uppity" as an insult and something to be offended at being called.. just never viewed it as racial at all.

[Alan T]

in common usage it pretty much goes hand-in-hand with the n-word. as in "uppity n*(#$#"

Is that from movies or music, or where exactly does this usage usually get used out of curiosity? It obviously is from something that I Have very little exposure to.

[Young Drachma]

uppity negro

Main Entry: up·pi·ty ne·gro
Pronunciation: 'up + -ity 'nE-(")grO
Function: proper noun
: a fearless black person who by social definition is "not in their place”
:a Black person who is committed to reversing the crimes of self-refusal, self-denial, and self-hatred that are endemic to the Black community and detrimental to the Black psyche
: UNAPOLOGETIC. VAINGLORIOUS. MULTIFARIOUS. JUST AUDACIOUS.

[DaddyTorgo]

Is that from movies or music, or where exactly does this usage usually get used out of curiosity? It obviously is from something that I Have very little exposure to.

history

[Young Drachma]

Is that from movies or music, or where exactly does this usage usually get used out of curiosity? It obviously is from something that I Have very little exposure to.

No.

It's from actual people, who used the term in reference to black folks who weren't in their proper place. Who thought they were better than white folks and in some cases, black folks using it to other black folks who think they're better than "ordinary" black people.

It's not as say, a common term now as it was. But that's due to the verbal judo that occurs in modern lexicon. But the term still has applicable and usage among some sectors, depending on where you go...

[bulletsponge]

Quote:
Main Entry: up·pi·ty ne·gro
Pronunciation: 'up + -ity 'nE-(")grO
Function: proper noun
: a fearless black person who by social definition is "not in their place”
:a Black person who is committed to reversing the crimes of self-refusal, self-denial, and self-hatred that are endemic to the Black community and detrimental to the Black psyche
: UNAPOLOGETIC. VAINGLORIOUS. MULTIFARIOUS. JUST AUDACIOUS.


how is that a bad term then?

[Alan T]

history

Thanks for being helpful here :confused: Some people are trying to do a bit more than just push agendas around in this thread here. :)

No.

It's from actual people, who used the term in reference to black folks who weren't in their proper place. Who thought they were better than white folks and in some cases, black folks using it to other black folks who think they're better than "ordinary" black people.

It's not as say, a common term now as it was. But that's due to the verbal judo that occurs in modern lexicon. But the term still has applicable and usage among some sectors, depending on where you go...

Fair enough. I've heard and read where people were called "Uncle Toms" or such, so it sounds like from this usage, it is just a less familiar method of calling someone the same. I don't think I would find many reasons to call someone "uppity" myself, but I guess I would perceive it as an insult either way (racial meaning or not)

[larrymcg421]

I think it was definitely used in a racial context, but he'll be able to dodge any serious scandal because of plausable deniability and representing a district that probably doesn't much care.

[larrymcg421]

Quote:
Main Entry: up·pi·ty ne·gro
Pronunciation: 'up + -ity 'nE-(")grO
Function: proper noun
: a fearless black person who by social definition is "not in their place”
:a Black person who is committed to reversing the crimes of self-refusal, self-denial, and self-hatred that are endemic to the Black community and detrimental to the Black psyche
: UNAPOLOGETIC. VAINGLORIOUS. MULTIFARIOUS. JUST AUDACIOUS.


how is that a bad term then?

It's bad from the perspective of the person calling someone that term, but the definition given here is a way of turning that term around and making it a compliment. I think most African-Americans would probably consider it a good thing to be called this, but would not like the person that said it.

[BrianD]

in common usage it pretty much goes hand-in-hand with the n-word. as in "uppity n*(#$#"

Once again, my soul weeps.

[Young Drachma]

. I think most African-Americans would probably consider it a good thing to be called this, but would not like the person that said it.

No, they wouldn't. You don't have to understand why. Just trust me. It's not a complement.

[larrymcg421]

No, they wouldn't. You don't have to understand why. Just trust me. It's not a complement.

It's not about a lack of understanding. I completely understand why it wouldn't, but I can also understand why someone could turn it around and take it the other way. Maybe "most" was not the right word to use, though.

I'm certainly not defending Westmoreland here. I think he's a racist fuck.

[cuervo72]

:facepalm:

[cartman]

There was a thread about "uppity" a while back, brought about by the former Rep. McKinney's camp, where they called the blacks in her district that did not support her 'uppity'.

[bulletsponge]

There was a thread about "uppity" a while back, brought about by the former Rep. McKinney's camp, where they called the blacks in her district that did not support her 'uppity'.

sounds like a compliment then :)

[Galaril]

Well, the Obama kids held some microphones and talked on-stage. At least his youngest daughter knew the difference between Kansas City and St. Louis. :D

Is there a difference?:lol:

[JonInMiddleGA]

I had to read Westmoreland's quote about three times to figure out what he was trying to say (almost looked like it was putting Palin & Obama in the same category the first couple of times I read it).

As written, it seems to me he was searching for something that meant "they think they're big shots"; i.e. "they think they're better than everyone else" or in some other regions maybe the colloquialism would be "they think they're hot shit" or "they think their shit don't stink".

As I've run across the word over time, I believe it can be used with more of a class distinction than a racial one although the most common usage is historical & racially connected.

Lynn isn't, in my estimation, isn't exactly the most refined guy in the world (although he tries to appear that way at times) and I suspect he was trying to avoid using some variation of the colorful phrases I mentioned and boil it down to a single word. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't exactly the best choice he could have made. I think he was largely trying to make the same criticism that Jesse Jackson made at one point but being a white guy, picked the wrong word to do it with, and should have stuck with "elitist" instead.

As for the impact of it all, well let's see. His district is 57% white but he pulled 75% of the general election vote last time. I'd be surprised if this changed those margins significantly this November.

[Galaril]

history

lol

I am guessing if you are african american you know exactly what it means.

[Young Drachma]

Barack Obama: Portrait of a pragmatist -- chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703300121mar30,0,7797542.story)

[Vegas Vic]

ST. PAUL -- The McCain campaign must be giddy with this news, just out from Nielsen: Sarah Palin's speech generated 37.2 million viewers, just 1.1 million viewers fewer than watched Barak Obama's Invesco Field acceptance speech. As Nielsen notes, only six networks carried Palin's speech compared with ten for Obama's.

[Calis]

According to Nicole Wallace of the McCain campaign, the American people don't care whether Sarah Palin can answer specific questions about foreign and domestic policy. According to Wallace -- in an appearance I did with her this morning on Joe Scarborough's show -- the American people will learn all they need to know (and all they deserve to know) from Palin's scripted speeches and choreographed appearances on the campaign trail and in campaign ads.

So does this mean know interviews or press conferences the entire campaign from Palin?

That's pretty disheartening if so. I understand she's being hounded by the media, but an act like this doesn't really instill my confidence in someone's ability to be VP of our country.

[Flasch186]

unfortunately i wont be watching anything tonight that doesnt involve a pigskin.

[Raiders Army]

I could've posted this in the NCAA thread. I told my wife I Baracked Kansas State today. She asked me what did that mean. I told her that it meant that I beat them around like an old white woman.

[TazFTW]

CBS Poll: McCain, Obama Tied, McCain Closes Eight-Point Gap From Poll Taken Last Weekend - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml)

[Young Drachma]

Palin's children should take priority over being Vice President » Brazen Careerist by Penelope Trunk (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/09/04/palins-children-should-take-priority-over-being-vice-president/)

Penelope Trunk saying what barely anyone else would ever bother to say.


Okay. Look. I wasn't going to tell you what I think of Sarah Palin, but so many people are asking, so fine. Here it is. She is nuts. And the Republicans are nuts for putting her on a ticket. She has a five-month-old kid with Down's Syndrome.

Why is no one writing about this? I have a special needs kid. I have two. Here's what happens when you have a special needs kid. You are in shock. You love the kid. I loved my first one so much that even though there was something like an 80% chance of having another kid with autism, I had a second kid.

And guess what? The second kid had a different disability than the first. Amazing. Statistically phenomenal, really. But my point here is that I'm very qualified to tell you what it's like to be a breadwinner mom of a five-month-old special needs kid. And, it's not just from my perspective. I am a magnet for breadwinner moms. They constantly write to me. And when I write about this topic—being the breadwinner and having a special needs kid—women come out of the woodwork. They all say exactly what I'm telling you now: it's insane. It's insanely hard.

Here's what's insanely hard. You go through a mourning period. Don't tell me about love and how everyone is different. Because everyone is the same about their kids: They love their kids no matter what, and they didn't plan on having a special needs kid, no matter what. So you need adjusting time.

And here's more I know from both statistics and first-hand experience: It's nearly impossible to keep a marriage together with a special needs kid. And it's nearly impossible to keep a marriage together when the husband quits his job to take care of the kids (which Palin's husband just did). And Sarah needs her marriage to stay together pretty badly right now.

And who will take care of the newest member of the family? Certainly not the 17-year-old daughter who is pregnant with the newest kid. So the dad now has three teens at home and soon two kids under one year old at home and one has special needs. This is not a reasonable job. For anyone.

I know that I'm going to be reminded me that I have a nanny, a house manager, and a cleaning woman (who actually shows up every day). But I also have a job that allows me to leave at 2:30. It's a compromise for me. Because every parent in the world has had to compromise, and it's fair to judge public figures on the choices they make.

It's really hard to know where to compromise. Here's what I was doing when my kid was five months old: I was at home. Hating it. Telling myself that I was not cut out to be at home. I was sort of a columnist and sort of a mom and sort of a psychopath. Because having a five-month-old with special needs is very very hard. Not just learning to take care of the baby, but mentally coping.

Why is no one talking about this? The Republicans should dump Palin. She's got too much responsibility at home.

Don't tell me that this is not fair to women. Because you know what? People should have railed against John Edwards running for President when he had two young kids at home and a wife fighting cancer. Fine if she wants him to run for office while she fights the cancer. I get it. But I don't get how the President of the United States was going to have time to console two school age kids about their mom's death while leading the country. It's irresponsible.

I know it's not cool to tell people how to parent. I know it's not cool because every day someone asks me how I run my company when I have two young kids and what they are really saying is "you suck as a parent." It's hard to hear every day, so I have empathy for the idea that everyone should shut up about how other people parent.

But it's absurd how extreme these presidential-wanna-be cases are. I don't want someone in the White House who has kids at home who desperately need them. I don't want to watch that scenario unfold on national TV. So at some point, it must be okay to speak up. At some point we have to say that we have standards for parenting and we want the community to uphold them.

[Logan]

Obviously Palin's family has some unusual stuff going on which will make "being a family" pretty hard.

But I don't see what the difference is between what Palin would be doing and what Obama would be doing. Do you think his two daughters would have a normal life? Get to spend the time with their parents that me, you and millions of others had? Will Barack and Michelle be as intimately involved in their lives while running the country? Of course not.

Sure, these kids don't have any special issues, but they still need their parents. I don't see how anyone could attack Palin for leaving her family and not attack Obama in the same way.

[DanGarion]

This is my impression of Sarah Palin. She appears to be a nagging, annoying bitch. My god her speech yesterday was teeth grinding. Wife agrees as well. I'm not really sure who is more annoying. Palin, Sanchez, H. Clinton, Fienstein, or Boxer. GAH.

[Deattribution]

I don't see how anyone could attack Palin for leaving her family and not attack Obama in the same way.

Or the other 43 presidents and their VPs.

If she wasn't a woman this wouldn't even be a talking point. Edwards' wife had cancer (which to me is worse, not to minimize down syndrome but I'd hate to spend the potential last months of my wife's life away from her constantly), and nobody was crying about him being VP.

[Young Drachma]

Obama is on O'Reilly. Initial thoughts, he's certainly not rolling over for Bill. O'Reilly is trying to press him to say something they can soundbite.

[Young Drachma]

At first I thought he was bloviating. O'Reilly broke the whole thing up into three more episodes. Cute. Nothing crazy and not likely to turn heads on either side.

[sterlingice]

I'm in the same boat as you and I grew up in the south (that is if you consider the metro-Atlanta area "south" which many wouldn't.) I had always viewed the word "uppity" more along the lines of hmmm.. how Hugh Grant acts in every one of his boring movies.

I guess I would view calling someone "uppity" as an insult and something to be offended at being called.. just never viewed it as racial at all.

What he said.

In fact, I looked at my posting history and I have used it 4 times on this board. It was to describe Falcons fans, Canadians, women, and Steve Francis. I guess I missed the "it's supposed to the racist" memo.

uppity negro

Yeah, see- you have to add that second part for it to be racist.

SI

[Raiders Army]

Palin's children should take priority over being Vice President » Brazen Careerist by Penelope Trunk (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/09/04/palins-children-should-take-priority-over-being-vice-president/)

Penelope Trunk saying what barely anyone else would ever bother to say.

Yeah, she's right. Just like Gore should be taking care of his kids instead of screwing around with alarmist global warming BS. Andy Reid should also stop worrying about cheese steaks and concentrate on his kids as well.

[BrianD]

Palin's children should take priority over being Vice President » Brazen Careerist by Penelope Trunk (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/09/04/palins-children-should-take-priority-over-being-vice-president/)

Penelope Trunk saying what barely anyone else would ever bother to say.

Who is Penelope Trunk and why do we care what she has to say?

[sterlingice]

Is there a difference?:lol:

Hey! I refuse to have the good people of KC lumped in with those awful Cardinals fans! :rant:

SI

[sterlingice]

The Daily Show last night was on top form. First they juxtaposed GOP talking heads from a year ago (attacking Hillary Clinton on being a woman) and defending Palin during the last week (from attacks on her because she's a woman). A typical example was people a year ago saying Clinton was "whining" when she complained about the "boys" ganging up on her in the Democratic debates, and then the same people saying how disgraceful it was that anyone was attacking Palin now, and that they were doing so just because she was a woman.

Also good was comparing Bill O'Reilly's response to Jamie Spears' pregnancy to Bristol Palin's. Pretty much a word-for-word contradiction of himself. I'm sure he's not the only talking head to be doing a 180 this week.

I got the impression Jon Stewart was pretty pissed last night. He was in rare form.

SI

[Logan]

What he said.

In fact, I looked at my posting history and I have used it 4 times on this board. It was to describe Falcons fans, Canadians, women, and Steve Francis. I guess I missed the "it's supposed to the racist" memo.

I laughed my ass off at his inclusion.

[sterlingice]

I laughed my ass off at his inclusion.

I was just going by my posting history :D

SI

[Flasch186]

Troopergate plods along:

Palin aides peeked into trooper's files, union says - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/04/palin.investigation/index.html)

From Matt Smith and Scott Bronstein
CNN
Decrease font Decrease font
Enlarge font Enlarge font

(CNN) -- Aides to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin improperly obtained her former brother-in-law's state police personnel files and cited information from those records to raise complaints about the officer, the head of Alaska's state police union said Thursday.
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has put an aide on leave during a probe into the firing of the public safety commissioner.

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has put an aide on leave during a probe into the firing of the public safety commissioner.

"It's apparent to us that the governor or someone on her staff had direct access to his personnel file, as well as his workers' comp file, and those are protected," said John Cyr, executive director of the Alaska Public Safety Employees Association.

Palin, now the Republican candidate for vice president, is battling allegations that she sacked her public safety commissioner in July because he refused to fire Trooper Mike Wooten, her sister's ex-husband.

The governor has denied any wrongdoing.

State police union files ethics complaint against Palin

[Young Drachma]

Protesters speak out at the RNC, crowd chants USA back.

[Jas_lov]

LOL! The puke green background has returned!

[Young Drachma]

Ugh.

[Young Drachma]

This thing is like watching a pep rally for...I dunno.

[Flasch186]

When it comes to Public Speaking, McCain's no Palin ;)

Protestors are getting a lot of attention tonight in the hall. Moreso than I can remember in years past no?

Wow, its as if they strategically placed themselves to wait for one to get caught and then they'd start a new protestor or something.

"She's worked with her hands and nose..." huh? Nose?

[Young Drachma]

interrupted again.

[Logan]

That guy threw that thing down WITH AUTHORITY!

[MrDNA]

I can't look at the damn screen! Did they give ANY thought to how the background would look on TV?

[Young Drachma]

"Change is Coming" - McCain.

This shit is hilarious.

[Jas_lov]

At least they changed it to blue. I don't know what the hell they were doing in the opening with the puke green turning into a swirling forest green.

[sterlingice]

This reminds me of the old John McCain a little. Tho he seems older and more tired now.

SI

[Flasch186]

did he just rail on union bosses? Isn't Mr. Palin a member of the Oil Workers Union? Im just saying the union workers and community organizers are gonna be pissed :)

[Alan T]

Mccain isn't quite as charismatic as Palin was, that is for sure.

[Young Drachma]

I love how all of the hand written signs were done by the same person.

[Young Drachma]

ooh...tough talk. lol

[Flasch186]

Ok, assuming all the speeches are written by pros on both sides...this speech just isnt very good and this past 2 weeks we've seen some spectacular speeches, truly. Obama's and Palin's were masterful....

this one is the worst of them all I think. Granted Im sure I didnt see ALL of the speeches of ALL of the days but this seems to be the most disconnected, most interrupted (unfortunately), most poorly executed, etc. This writer needed help, apparently. Now perhaps its a better speech on paper but he needs to understand his deliverer and if it's a known struggler than he needed to tweak it for that....you have to know your audience...but you also have to know who's at the podium.

sorry, thats my opinion

[Jas_lov]

Yep, it's a good thing McCain has Palin because he's really dull.

[JPhillips]

That was an odd section. We messed this up...we messed that up...and now we're going to fix it.

The Republicans screwed up government, vote Republican, argument seems really difficult to pull off.

[Swaggs]

Dull and awkward up front, but he seems to be hitting his stride in talking about core GOP positions.

I really don't see Americans going for the veteran senator offering reform/change in Washington.

[Young Drachma]

Ok, assuming all the speeches are written by pros on both sides...this speech just isnt very good and this past 2 weeks we've seen some spectacular speeches, truly. Obama's and Palin's were masterful....

this one is the worst of them all I think. Granted Im sure I didnt see ALL of the speeches of ALL of the days but this seems to be the most disconnected, most interrupted (unfortunately), most poorly executed, etc. This writer needed help, apparently. Now perhaps its a better speech on paper but he needs to understand his deliverer and if it's a known struggler than he needed to tweak it for that....you have to know your audience...but you also have to know who's at the podium.

sorry, thats my opinion

He's coming off worse than W would've right now. I mean, McCain is better unscripted anyway. He is, if nothing else...being specific enough to clarify the difference between the Dems and the GOP. And he's been way less technical in his speech than Barry. Though Obama is getting way better at it.

He's improved this whole cycle, I can't see him slaying the Clintons and choking on a guy who W beat in 2000. It'll be close from now 'til November, but the GOP sales pitch is a moving target just like the Clintons was. Even if they slime, I can't see how they emerge from this thing with a win.

[JAG]

They'll get their ATM machine fired up again for the last stretch of the race. No way the people they've stoked up are gonna quit now. The last 45 days of this race are gonna be nothing like we've seen before.

That's crazy talk, why...wait, what's that?

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - After Palin speech, Obama has record $10 million day « - Blogs from CNN.com (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/04/after-palin-speech-obama-has-record-10-million-day/)

After Palin speech, Obama has record $10 million day
Posted: 08:50 PM ET

(CNN) – Barack Obama's campaign for president has raised $10 million since Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin spoke Wednesday night, the campaign announced, calling it a "one-day record."

Palin, the governor of Alaska, launched harsh attacks on Obama, accusing him of being two-faced and a political lightweight with no significant legislative accomplishments.

"Coverage of the Palin attacks on the news this evening just pushed us over $10 million," Obama spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in an e-mail to reporters Wednesday night.

The Republican Party announced earlier in the day it had raised $1 million in the wake of Palin's speech.

[Flasch186]

Wow, his description of what he'll do is scaring me, and I would think, scaring middle class Americans.

Whew, Either McCain's Stamina rating is in the 30's (2k7) or it seems he's getting worse as we go along and the audience is getting lost. Holy shit he's struggling now.

nice closeup of the kid yawning in the audience.

[DaddyTorgo]

as i've said in the past flasch - according to Romney, McCain simply is NOT capable of delivering a prepared speech. I have no doubt his handlers and writers tried their asses off (they don't want to fail after all), but there's only so much they can do.

[Jas_lov]

This is just terrible. It's past McCain's bedtime. He doesn't even look interested.

[larrymcg421]

Who the fuck thought it was a good idea for the McCain campaign to start talking about change? That's an incredibly stupid thing to start focusing his campaign on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't see how they emerge from this thing with a win.

The formula for that will actually be simple: just keep reminding voters who McCain is running against. That ought to be just enough to do it. Hardly anybody voting for McCain is particularly happy about it, but if he doesn't screw up majorly being "not Obama" should pull him through.

[Swaggs]

Wow... I'm not liking his educational philosophies.

I guess he doesn't realize that there is already a teacher shortage and that there are not a whole lot of charter school spots available in all areas.

[sabotai]

I feel like I've heard about this policy plan of his 8 years ago...

[Young Drachma]

Who the fuck thought it was a good idea for the McCain campaign to start talking about change? That's an incredibly stupid thing to start focusing his campaign on.

EXACTLY!

[Crapshoot]

The formula for that will actually be simple: just keep reminding voters who McCain is running against. That ought to be just enough to do it. Hardly anybody voting for McCain is particularly happy about it, but if he doesn't screw up majorly being "not Obama" should pull him through.

Yeah, but how did that work for Kerry in 2004? Look, I have no doubt this election is about Obama, but it seems to me the McCain has every incentive to try and change it to at least try and sell his own story - push his way into the limelight.

[Flasch186]

wrap it up with Al Qaeda.....recipe for success.

[Swaggs]

I think I just saw Rudy, on the sidelines, mouthing "Don't forget to mention 9/11!"

[JPhillips]

Did he just say Obama doesn't have scars?

[Flasch186]

Well to follow up on my opinion of this:

Im sure it's good enough for his base BUT I wonder if he didnt lose some of the middle with his performance tonight. It was truly a below average performance for any public speaking and Im not saying its fair to judge specifically on these nights but we've given credit where it was due so it's only fair to lay blame when it's called for too. It almost feels like a High School Gymnasium motivational speaker.

[kcchief19]

That was an odd section. We messed this up...we messed that up...and now we're going to fix it.

The Republicans screwed up government, vote Republican, argument seems really difficult to pull off.
As a liberal I'll gladly admit my group has its own shortcomings but the inherent contradiction of most conservative arguments just drives me up the wall -- McCain railed against Obama for promoting bureacracy, then launched into how he wants the federal government hiring and firing teachers in my local school.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, but how did that work for Kerry in 2004?

I started to make reference to that but I figured the difference would be obvious: McCain is running against Obama 08, not Bush 04.

Besides, what other choice for strategy does McCain really have? Even most of the people who are planning to vote for him aren't very happy about it. There's nothing he can do to significantly change that without alienating the voters he already has. If he doesn't run "against Obama", he's toast. If he does, I genuinely believe he's got a very good chance of winning in spite of himself. And if he doesn't then we'll get exactly what we deserve.

[Alan T]

Well to follow up on my opinion of this:

Im sure it's good enough for his base BUT I wonder if he didnt lose some of the middle with his performance tonight. It was truly a below average performance for any public speaking and Im not saying its fair to judge specifically on these nights but we've given credit where it was due so it's only fair to lay blame when it's called for too.

McCain is a horrific speaker, but he is probably the most moderate of the 4 republican/democrat president/VP candidates. His message and intentions didn't lose me (mr. Moderate voter). His choice of backing down to the religious right and choosing their candidate along with her beliefs is what lost me previously. McCain could have won this election I think if he (or someone) finally realized that there is a large number of centralist that want a candidate to speak to their interest for once. Not cater to the left or the right for a change. Out of the presidents in my life time, Clinton was the closest to achieving this goal.

[Young Drachma]

I would've voted for McCain 2000 over Obama. Now, I vote third party because I can choose an idealist, pragmatic and charismatic liberal who wants to help me save myself over a war hero who seems to think that wrapping his own ambition in the cloak of the American flag is worthy enough of my vote.

[sabotai]

McCain is a horrific speaker, but he is probably the most moderate of the 4 republican/democrat president/VP candidates.

To be fair, when the other 3 are Obama, Biden and Palin, it's not exactly difficult to be the most moderate of the group.

[larrymcg421]

McCain is a horrific speaker, but he is probably the most moderate of the 4 republican/democrat president/VP candidates. His message and intentions didn't lose me (mr. Moderate voter). His choice of backing down to the religious right and choosing their candidate along with her beliefs is what lost me previously. McCain could have won this election I think if he (or someone) finally realized that there is a large number of centralist that want a candidate to speak to their interest for once. Not cater to the left or the right for a change. Out of the presidents in my life time, Clinton was the closest to achieving this goal.

Yeah, but McCain probably wouldn't have been able to get the nomination and I think he realized that. Clinton did run a centrist campaign, but he had superior campaign skills and a much weaker field to run against. That Dem 92 field was horrific. It basically came down to him, Tsongas, and Jerry Brown.

[Flasch186]

McCain's telling us what to do to help our country, "...feed a homeless person, teach an [illiterate] to read,..." I gotta ask if that is as a community organizer?

[JonInMiddleGA]

It was truly a below average performance for any public speaking

So in other words it was about the norm for McCain (I truly can't think of five people in my lifetime I thought were actually worse speakers if you actually listened to them, something I discovered long before this campaign started)

[Logan]

This final pump-up part of the speech is laughable given how poorly he is selling it.

[sabotai]

McCain's telling us what to do to help our country, "...feed a homeless person, teach an [illiterate] to read,..." I gotta ask if that is as a community organizer?

Heh, nice.

[sterlingice]

This final pump-up part of the speech is laughable given how poorly he is selling it.

I felt bad for the guy- it was painful to watch. McCain 2000 would have been fired up but he's just tired now.

SI

[ace1914]

That was brutal.

[Jas_lov]

The crowd is cheering that it's finally over. McCain inspired no one tonight.

[ace1914]

McCain is just too damn old. I think he was going the wrong way on the stage and Palin had to pull him in the correct direction. He was the absolute worst speaker at his own convention.

[Flasch186]

Heart's Barracuda is truly a nice touch, I love Heart.

[larrymcg421]

<!--god-->Pappy O"Daniel: "We need a shot in the arm. You hear me boys? In the goddamn arm! Election held tomorrw, that son of bitch Stokes would win it in a walk!"

Junior O'Daniel: "Well' he's the reform candidate, Daddy."

Pappy O"Daniel: "Yeah."

Junior O'Daniel: "A lot of people like that reform. Maybe we should get us some."

Pappy O"Daniel: "I'll reform you, you soft-headed son of a bitch. How we gonna run reform when we're the damn incumbent?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Take this FWIW ... my wife, very fiscal conservative, more socially moderate than any of you would ever believe possible just told me that I really missed it, that McCain just gave the speech of his life. As you might expect, my reaction included the phrase "that ain't saying much".

Fair notice, he had her vote regardless of what he said/did tonight, but she certainly seems more satisfied with that eventual vote than she was before the convention.

[JPhillips]

McCain is a horrific speaker, but he is probably the most moderate of the 4 republican/democrat president/VP candidates. His message and intentions didn't lose me (mr. Moderate voter). His choice of backing down to the religious right and choosing their candidate along with her beliefs is what lost me previously. McCain could have won this election I think if he (or someone) finally realized that there is a large number of centralist that want a candidate to speak to their interest for once. Not cater to the left or the right for a change. Out of the presidents in my life time, Clinton was the closest to achieving this goal.

But Clinton didn't run as a moderate in 1992, that was a reaction to the asswhipping the Dems got in 1994. Clinton ran saying he'd raise taxes, balance the gap between rich and poor and add significant government control to healthcare. Sure he said he was a New Democrat and had the DLC, but his policies were fairly liberal.

[cartman]

After Obama got slammed by some here for not giving any details on how he planned to do the stuff he mentioned in his speech, I was sure glad that McCain gave details.

Oh, wait, he didn't either? Damn.

[ISiddiqui]

McCain was never considered a great speaker, but at least he articulated policy positions and economic plans.

Though it was funny when he was telling the crowd that the Republicans failed the people, the place got reeeeeeal quiet.

[larrymcg421]

McCain was never considered a great speaker, but at least he articulated policy positions and economic plans.

Heh.

[Flasch186]

you guys need to talk and get on the same page.

[ace1914]

Its amazing how different points of view, see the same event. Reading these comments, I feel like I'm reading "Vantage Point" script on FOFC.

[larrymcg421]

Its amazing how different points of view, see the same event. Reading these comments, I feel like I'm reading "Vantage Point" on FOFC.

I'm disappointed in you. Rashomon would have been a much more elitist reference.

[Alan T]

But Clinton didn't run as a moderate in 1992, that was a reaction to the asswhipping the Dems got in 1994. Clinton ran saying he'd raise taxes, balance the gap between rich and poor and add significant government control to healthcare. Sure he said he was a New Democrat and had the DLC, but his policies were fairly liberal.

That might be so. I was 17 in the 1992 election and didn't vote until the 96 election when I did vote for Clinton (my first election voting).

[JPhillips]

After Obama got slammed by some here for not giving any details on how he planned to do the stuff he mentioned in his speech, I was sure glad that McCain gave details.

Oh, wait, he didn't either? Damn.

John McCain gave the detail that mattered, POW.

[ace1914]

Palin and Guiliani fucked him with those great speeches yesterday.

And then we had those idiots in the crowd. Protesting is cool, but that was completely uncalled for.

[SFL Cat]

Reverse the GOP ticket...now! :p

OT...we need a surge in Chicago

Nearly 125 Shot Dead In Chicago Over Summer - Total Is About Double The Death Toll In Iraq (http://cbs2chicago.com/local/chicago.summer.shootings.2.810166.html)

[JPhillips]

McCain won't drop Palin, but can Palin drop McCain?

[Flasch186]

Ill take that as an SFL in agreement that McCain's speech wasn't very good...at least in comparison to Palin's.

Jeffrey Toobin on CNN says it was the worst speech by a nominee since Carter which I didnt hear obviously.

[ace1914]

Reverse the GOP ticket...now! :p

OT...we need a surge in Chicago

Nearly 125 Shot Dead In Chicago Over Summer - Total Is About Double The Death Toll In Iraq (http://cbs2chicago.com/local/chicago.summer.shootings.2.810166.html)


I'm so glad, I went to college.

[sterlingice]

Some Bush speech writer ripped it completely apart on MSNBC.

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Ill take that as an SFL in agreement that McCain's speech wasn't very good...at least in comparison to Palin's.

Jeffrey Toobin on CNN says it was the worst speech by a nominee since Carter which I didnt hear obviously.

Well, it was definitely dull. At least it wasn't a bad culture war-ish speech

[Mac Howard]

It wasn't that bad, guys. He's certainly no Henry Vth but there's an element of sincerity there entirely missing from Palin's speech that was little more than rabble rousing once she got beyond her bio. As for Giuliani :rolleyes:

I had to smile at one point when he delivered a punch line and the floor cheered loudly. The smile of an embarrassed little boy thinking "I did it, I did it!" passed over his face. I think he's well aware of his total lack of eloquence :)

Whether he's recovered the support from the centre that Palin antagonised remains to be seen. It remains an interesting campaign.

[EagleFan]

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

[DaddyTorgo]

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

:lol:

[SirFozzie]

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

What are you on, and where can we go to get it declared a controlled substance?

[Groundhog]

I sorta hope McCain does get in now. I'd rather hear more about the wacky adventures of Palin over the next 4 years than the moaning about Obama and his wife!

[Jon]

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama. McCain has sold his soul to get the nomination. He has renounced his previous positions to adopt the positions of the right wing of the Republican Party. He has hired former Bush people to run is campaign and his campaign is using the same disgusting tactics that he cried out against in 2000. He can claim as much as he wants that he is still the maverick from eight years ago, but he's not. He now believes in drilling, he now believes that abortion should be banned, he accuses his opponents of being traitors if they disagree with him, and his Vice-Presidential pick was someone who was a repeat offender on his pork barrel spending list (and apparently not vetted). What little detail in terms of policy in his speech was a regurgitation of Republican tactics. And his strategy of saying elect a Republican to fix problems that Republicans caused makes no sense.
Just because you were a prisoner of war does not mean he should be president. It doesn't make him a leader. Just because you're willing to restore brinkmanship as an American foreign policy does not make a person a leader. I question his judgment, his temperment, and, now, his integrity. His investigation into Abramoff was incomplete (he didn't go after everybody and they later turned around to help him) and his past is not really one of a reformer.

And, I felt bad for him tonite. His speech was bad. I mean painfully bad. You had the green screen, you had the crowd chanting USA when he talked about a guy who didn't have a job, he talked about standing on your side (my g/f mentioned that her physical therapist does it and maybe that's his health care plan), he said something about Palin working with her hands and her nose. He looked old and uncomfortable at times. Even Cindy McCain looked cross at times. And the kid yawning was priceless.

[ISiddiqui]

the ability to inspire is a part of leadership

It doesn't always have to be. I'd take one Eisenhower over a million John Kennedys.

[Vegas Vic]

And then we had those idiots in the crowd. Protesting is cool, but that was completely uncalled for.

Code Pinko. I thought McCain handled it with good humor.

[Vegas Vic]

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama.

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

[Cork]

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

What exactly has McCain ever led? He has been part of the Washington establishment for a quarter century? That is not leadership. That is being part of the problem.

I served in the military, and it's great that he likes to continually remind us that he was a POW, but after hearing it for the millionth time, it really loses it's effectiveness. I would hope that it takes more than just being a former POW to make a good president. Remove McCain's military past and he is no different than the other two bit politicians in Washington.

McCain made his bed with the abomination that is the Bush Presidency, and it will cost him his final shot at the White House.

-Cork

[sterlingice]

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

Talking point, much?

SI

[Jon]

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

Most of those present votes were done to provide leadership for the Democratic caucus in the Illinois State legislature.

As for McCain, he has missed ever major vote in the United States Senate since he began running for the White House, including FISA, funding the troops, the health care bill that even Teddy Kennedy came back to vote on. Voting record is not something McCain can really push.

[stevew]

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

To be fair, he did plan some really good community cookouts.

[Galaxy]

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama. McCain has sold his soul to get the nomination. He has renounced his previous positions to adopt the positions of the right wing of the Republican Party. He has hired former Bush people to run is campaign and his campaign is using the same disgusting tactics that he cried out against in 2000. He can claim as much as he wants that he is still the maverick from eight years ago, but he's not. He now believes in drilling, he now believes that abortion should be banned, he accuses his opponents of being traitors if they disagree with him, and his Vice-Presidential pick was someone who was a repeat offender on his pork barrel spending list (and apparently not vetted). What little detail in terms of policy in his speech was a regurgitation of Republican tactics. And his strategy of saying elect a Republican to fix problems that Republicans caused makes no sense.
Just because you were a prisoner of war does not mean he should be president. It doesn't make him a leader. Just because you're willing to restore brinkmanship as an American foreign policy does not make a person a leader. I question his judgment, his temperment, and, now, his integrity. His investigation into Abramoff was incomplete (he didn't go after everybody and they later turned around to help him) and his past is not really one of a reformer.

And, I felt bad for him tonite. His speech was bad. I mean painfully bad. You had the green screen, you had the crowd chanting USA when he talked about a guy who didn't have a job, he talked about standing on your side (my g/f mentioned that her physical therapist does it and maybe that's his health care plan), he said something about Palin working with her hands and her nose. He looked old and uncomfortable at times. Even Cindy McCain looked cross at times. And the kid yawning was priceless.

Not to nit-pick, but Obama has changed his positions as well. Politics is about doing what gets you elected. Real leadership requires more then charisma. It requires vision (actual ideas, strategies, and goals) and substance. It requires a leader to think quickly and take swift action. It requires one to stand his ground and stand behind what he believes in, not catering to what is popular. To me, neither candidate has a lot of these qualities. It sucks that we are down to the two candidates we have. Of course, it's typical politics, no matter how they dress themselves.

I just wish the Libertarian party was a lot stronger.

[larrymcg421]

We can have all this fun trading of talking points (I could go to DailyKos and pick up a few), but the point that was being made is that McCain gave a terrible speech. That seems to really bother the same conservatives that were masturbating over Palin's speech and has them rather defensive.


Point: This was not a good night for McCain.

[Crapshoot]

I started to make reference to that but I figured the difference would be obvious: McCain is running against Obama 08, not Bush 04.

Besides, what other choice for strategy does McCain really have? Even most of the people who are planning to vote for him aren't very happy about it. There's nothing he can do to significantly change that without alienating the voters he already has. If he doesn't run "against Obama", he's toast. If he does, I genuinely believe he's got a very good chance of winning in spite of himself. And if he doesn't then we'll get exactly what we deserve.

No, I don't disagree with you - if you noted, I agreed that this is a referendum on Obama. I guess I think of Americans as fundamentally optimistic - they'd rather vote for someone (make that effort) as opposed to voting against someone.

[VPI97]

We can have all this fun trading of talking points (I could go to DailyKos and pick up a few), but the point that was being made is that McCain gave a terrible speech. That seems to really bother the same conservatives that were masturbating over Palin's speech and has them rather defensive.


Point: This was not a good night for McCain.
FWIW, four of the five analysts on CNN gave him high marks for tonight, so I wouldn't really say that it's a fact that he gave a terrible speech.

[larrymcg421]

FWIW, four of the five analysts on CNN gave him high marks for tonight, so I wouldn't really say that it's a fact that he gave a terrible speech.

I wouldn't say it is a fact, because it's not something that can really be a fact. However, I think the reactions of the conservatives in this thread are pretty telling. Not one of them defended McCain by saying he gave a good speech. Instead, they went into attack mode.

[Butter_of_69]

McCain didn't need to give a good speech. Palin got the base fired up.

McCain just needs to not blow it during the debates and he still has a chance. A small, shrinking chance.

[ISiddiqui]

Attack mode?

When someone says that great speaking = great leadership to try to put down McCain, I only think its fair to go after the great speaking opponent, don't you? And let us not get into the attacks of the Obamaniacs ever since McCain won the primaries.

[JPhillips]

It surprised me how poorly written the speech was. I didn't expect him to deliver it well, but he didn't have much to wok with. The ending wasn't bad, but there wasn't much flow to the speech.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pretty funny to hear some of the comments about McCain's speech being boring or lacking excitement. Anyone who follows politics or has read even portions of this thread knows that McCain's weakest point in the campaign would likely be last night at his acceptance speech. I think the first 60-70% of the speech was mostly just a listing of policies that he would implement without any real barn-burning lines. It was relatively boring, but did lay out some of his ideas going forward. I thought the last 15-20 minutes were much better. That was when he started talking about his military experiences, the current military, and how he would deal with foreign aggression (countries or terrorists). It appeared that he was much more interested in telling those stories and making those points. Much better than the earlier part of the speech.

Overall, it was nothing particularly special and was likely the weakest of the 4 Prez/VP speeches from a presentation standpoint. With that said, most McCain supporters (and voters in general for that matter) knew that in advance and they also know that he's much better in less formal settings. He also did very well in presenting his leadership credentials. The CBSNews poll from late last night after McCain's speech shows a dead heat in overall national polls. If those early poll results are accurate and he pulled even after what most voters would agree was his weakest portion of the campaign, that bodes well for the Republican ticket.

[JPhillips]

The CBSNews poll from late last night after McCain's speech shows a dead heat in overall national polls. If those early poll results are accurate and he pulled even after what most voters would agree was his weakest portion of the campaign, that bodes well for the Republican ticket.

Fail.

Those poll numbers were released before the speech. Even if they had been released after the speech there's no way a poll can be conducted in an hour or two.

So, now you'll say that's even better news for the Republicans. Maybe, but let's look at the internals of the CBS poll. Between the last poll where Obama was +8 and this poll where they're tied the sample changed dramatically. This second poll had nearly six percent more Republicans than the previous poll. Every polling outfit struggles with putting together a realistic model of voters, so this isn't bias, the second sample may turn out to closer model voters for all we know. However, when the sample changes this much from one poll to the next it's impossible to validate a large change in the outcome.

McCain will likely get some bounce starting with today's numbers, but you need to look more closely at polls, especially the ones that tell you what you want to hear.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

McCain will likely get some bounce starting with today's numbers, but you need to look more closely at polls, especially the ones that tell you what you want to hear.

Hence the reason I specifically noted 'if those early polls are accurate'?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting story being floated over at the Drudge Report. Oprah is balking at having Sarah Palin on her show, despite overwhelming audience requests to have her on the show. Oprah and the show's executive producer are big Obama backers, both from a voting and financial standpoint............

DILEMMA: OPRAH BALKS AT HOSTING SARAH PALIN; STAFF DIVIDED
Fri Sep 05 2008 08:55:46 ET

Oprah Winfrey may have introduced Democrat Barack Obama to the women of America -- but the talkshow queen is not rushing to embrace the first woman on a Republican presidential ticket, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Oprah's staff is sharply divided on the merits of booking Sarah Palin, insiders reveal.

"Half of her staff really want Sarah Palin her on, Oprah's website is getting tons of requests to put her on, but Oprah and a couple of her top people are adamantly against it because of Obama," a source explains.

One executive close to Winfrey is warning any Palin ban could ignite a dramatic backlash!

It is not clear if Oprah has softened her position after watching Palin's historic convention speech.

In the past, Oprah has refused to have other high-profile Republicans on her top-rated show. Last year, Winfrey blocked an appearance by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, timed to a promotional tour of his autobiography.

Oprah and executive producer Shari Salata, who has contributed thousands of dollars to Obama's campaign, refused requests for comment.

[SFL Cat]

FWIW...e-mail from a friend of mine in Arkansas who is a self-described libertarian. He unsuccessfully ran for Congress as an independent.

*e-mail*
This is not an endorsement. Just FYI.
I found it interesting.
Dale


----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Spalten



Subject: Who is Sarah Palin by an Alaskan Brush Pilot and Guide



One of our good friends, Eddie Spalten from San Antonio , fishes at the Wildman Lodge on the Alaskan Peninsula . The lodge is owned by Butch and Kathy Wildman. The Wildmans spend their winters in Texas and their summers in Alaska . Kathy’s father and former husband served in the Alaskan legislature for around 30 years so Butch and Kathy know Alaska politics.

Eddie emailed Butch and asks Butch what the Wildmans think of Gov. Sarah Palin. Butch’s unedited email is attached below. Please read it and forward it to your friends. This is what the citizens of Alaska think of Sarah Palin!

Thanks, Gene Powell
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wildman Lake & Cinder River Lodges [mailto:fish@wildmanlodge.com ]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:19 AM
To: eddie@amerroofing.com
Subject: Who is Sarah

Hi Eddie:

Fishing is good here at Wildman and I rarely have time for politics, but many of our friends are asking us “Who is Sarah Palin?” Of course, as Alaskans, Kathy and I are extremely proud of her. We just want to let you know that Sarah “Barracuda” Palin is a straight shooting, hard charging, get it done gal. She knows when to listen, how to analyze the facts and how to make a decision, then implement the plan. She doesn’t do a poll before jumping in with both feet like too many of the Washington types. She has little legislative experience because she has always held the EXECUTIVE position; in private life, as mayor of Anchorage ’s largest bedroom community or more recently as Governor of our State. She is a smart, attractive home grown Alaska girl with excellent moral and family values. She can see what needs to be done and does not hesitate to get it done.

One of our State’s major problems is that its Capital is in Juneau, 500 miles from the nearest road and 800 air miles from the population base which is Anchorage, Wasilla and Fairbanks. Our legislature and most of the State government is in Juneau and they ALL behave like a bunch of freshmen in a college town. It has been this way since Statehood in 1959. When Sarah moved to Juneau , so did accountability and responsibility When the oil revenue started flown and a barrel of North Slope Crude hit $23.00, these people began spending money like drunken sailors. You can only imagine what was happenings when oil hit $100.00 a barrel, about the time Sarah took command. My wife Kathy has first-hand experience with this fiasco, as her father and also her ex-husband were Alaska Legislators who served in Juneau as Senators, Senate President, or members of the State House for a combined period spanning nearly three decades.

About the time Sarah took the HELM as Governor of Alaska, about half of the State legislature was in the pocket of big oil companies or contractors doing big projects for Native Corporations around Alaska, all funded by State oil revenue. Alaska government was nothing but a good old boys club riding the perpetual wave of prosperity. This filtered down from the legislature, through the Department of Natural Resources, Department of Labor and even spilled in to the Public Safety who are supposed to “preserve and protect”.

When Sarah walked into the Governor’s Mansion, she promptly dismissed the State Trooper detachment assigned to Governor and had her and her husband’s gun case brought in from Wasilla. Then, she got rid of the former Governor’s STATE Jet and told legislators that there were no more free rides, they would have to fly Alaska Airlines, just like her and her family if they wanted to travel. Next came the nut cutting (the Barracuda part) the heads that rolled were too numerous to name, but when Sarah finished cleaning house, a number of our legislators ended up in jail for on corruption charges, or tendered their resignations along with numerous department heads and those who have been riding the gravy train for way too long, AND THEN SHE HAD LUNCH. By the end of the day, Sarah Palin had saved the people of Alaska millions and has not yet slowed down.

She has truly brought CHANGE to Juneau . I personally know several persons in the private sector in Alaska , that hold her in high esteem. She surrounds herself with smart people, many from my hometown of Anchorage , she listens to thembut makes her own decisions. Sarah Palin is a no B.S. politician. It is refreshing that there is such a thing anymore. You want to talk about CHANGE? You should see a before and after picture of the State government in Alaska . That’s CHANGE! Sarah will bring a number of things to the election. I am sure she will appeal many voters who my otherwise could have gone the other direction on election day. The conservative block will not be for Barack. We have their vote. We need what Sarah will bring, first to the election and second, what she will bring to Washington D.C. McCain has been advised well, Let’s just hope the American people can get the straight scoop on her in the weeks ahead. This is just the opinion of one Alaska Bush Pilot and Guide, who pays attention to national politics, watches the news and is deathly afraid of the direction our nation is headed. I guarantee that if Sarah gets a chance to dig her spurs into the flanks of the liberal Washington types, they will know that she is in the saddle.

Butch King

Pilot/Guide

Butch & Kathy King

Proprietors

Wildman Lake Lodge

[SFL Cat]

Ill take that as an SFL in agreement that McCain's speech wasn't very good...at least in comparison to Palin's.

Jeffrey Toobin on CNN says it was the worst speech by a nominee since Carter which I didnt hear obviously.

McCain's oratory has never done much for me. Not a knock on his leadership skills, its just that I don't find him very telegenic.

Of course, based on accounts I've read, I'm thinking Abe Lincoln might have had problems making a go of it in our TV age too.

[DaddyTorgo]

calling wasilla "anchorage's largest bedroom community" is stretching it - for one it's 43 miles away from anchorage (hardly a bedroom community), and for 2, calling it large is laughable. It's like saying I'm the smartest person in my office without saying that I'm the only person in my office.

also just a quick google - according to wikipedia the city of wasilla has 7025 people versus like 6920 for the next largest city (which is equidistant from anchorage). That's an extra 105 people. I took the train to work today and there were probably 100 people in my train-car.

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

[Young Drachma]

Oprah isn't running a charity. She owns her show and can do what she wants and I presume she will. Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

[Cringer]

FWIW...e-mail from a friend of mine in Arkansas who is a self-described libertarian. He unsuccessfully ran for Congress as an independent.


I have a real interesting email I will send along to you. It is from the assistant of a deceased leader of a tiny African nation, and she said she has large sums of money she needs someone to hold on to for her while she tries to locate the heir to the thrown.

Word is the heir is a brush pilot in Alaska somewhere.....

[samifan24]

Oprah isn't running a charity. She owns her show and can do what she wants and I presume she will. Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

While that's certainly true, I would think that Oprah would want Palin on the show simply because she has a compelling story and is new to the national political scene.

I think Oprah is only shortchanging her audience if she doesn't ask Palin on since, it seems, many in her audience would like to see Palin on the show.

[JPhillips]

Interesting story being floated over at the Drudge Report. Oprah is balking at having Sarah Palin on her show, despite overwhelming audience requests to have her on the show. Oprah and the show's executive producer are big Obama backers, both from a voting and financial standpoint............

I call bullshit. The only quote is attributed to "a source", and according to McCain's own staff Palin isn't going to be doing interviews or press conferences.

[SFL Cat]

I have a real interesting email I will send along to you. It is from the assistant of a deceased leader of a tiny African nation, and she said she has large sums of money she needs someone to hold on to for her while she tries to locate the heir to the thrown.

Word is the heir is a brush pilot in Alaska somewhere.....

Thanks, but I've already gotten rich off that one! :p

[Klinglerware]

calling wasilla "anchorage's largest bedroom community" is stretching it - for one it's 43 miles away from anchorage (hardly a bedroom community), and for 2, calling it large is laughable. It's like saying I'm the smartest person in my office without saying that I'm the only person in my office.

also just a quick google - according to wikipedia the city of wasilla has 7025 people versus like 6920 for the next largest city (which is equidistant from anchorage). That's an extra 105 people. I took the train to work today and there were probably 100 people in my train-car.

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

Well, it is all about perspective. 7,000 is probably a lot of people for a town in Alaska.

And every city is different... metro Boston kind of ends past Marlborough, after which it seems like there is nothing out there. On the other hand, Metro NYC sprawls for miles and miles... some people even commute into the city from Western PA.

[ace1914]

Plain and simple, McCain's speech was terrible. The worst part is he's now trying to piggy-back on Obama's message of "change."

It seems like McCain is trying to say, "Vote for me. I'm not really a Republican."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

Nope, but if she manages to sincerely piss off even, say, 25% of the women in the country then she's a different property to her affiliates.

Oprah is a big deal because she posts big numbers which are quite profitable to the stations, something that bites into that puts her in a different position in the future (although as much money as she's made maybe she doesn't care about that).

[molson]

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

It's a fair point in terms of her experience but the Democrats also have to remember that small towns ARE America, Republicans dominate there, and its why they win national elections.

2004 County-By-County Map

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countymapredblue.png

Obviously, Democrats get a lot of votes out of those more densley populated blue areas, but I think maps like this help explain why Obama can't pull away with this election even though it FEELS like he's way more popular than McCain. The media portrays the views of those cities.

[Cringer]

Thanks, but I've already gotten rich off that one! :p

I have to ask this because, well I just need to know for sure....

Do you really believe that email is real?

[ace1914]

It's a fair point in terms of her experience but the Democrats also have to remember that small towns ARE America, Republicans dominate there, and its why they win national elections.

2004 County-By-County Map

http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7Emejn/election/countymapredblue.png

Obviously, Democrats get a lot of votes out of those more densley populated blue areas, but I think maps like this help explain why Obama can't pull away with this election even though it FEELS like he's way more popular than McCain. The media portrays the views of those cities.

What does this map show? Presidential selections by county? There's no legend. Photoshop is a great tool, Molson.

[ace1914]

Nope, but if she manages to sincerely piss off even, say, 25% of the women in the country then she's a different property to her affiliates.

Oprah is a big deal because she posts big numbers which are quite profitable to the stations, something that bites into that puts her in a different position in the future (although as much money as she's made maybe she doesn't care about that).

Oprah is damn near more well known than the president. Having or not having Palin on there will not matter with next year's TV ratings, no matter who is elected.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oprah is damn near more well known than the president. Having or not having Palin on there will not matter with next year's TV ratings, no matter who is elected.

Once again, more slowly this time.

I'm not talking about whether Palin is on the show. I'm talking about whether avoiding Palin could piss off enough current viewers to affect her ratings. Two completely different things.

[Galaril]

That's crazy talk, why...wait, what's that?

Yup, they got my money in that 10 million.

[molson]

What does this map show? Presidential selections by county? There's no legend. Photoshop is a great tool, Molson.

A great tool I'm not competent to use.

Yes, 2004 Presidential election results by county.

[SFL Cat]

Hillary must be having a cow right about now.

Palin Power: Fresh Face Now More Popular Than Obama, McCain (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_power_fresh_face_now_more_popular_than_obama_mccain)

[ace1914]

Once again, more slowly this time.

I'm not talking about whether Palin is on the show. I'm talking about whether avoiding Palin could piss off enough current viewers to affect her ratings. Two completely different things.

And I'm saying "avoiding Palin" has no long term effects on Oprah. Hell, it has no short term effects on Oprah. Avoiding Palin is not going to effect Oprah's viewership.

[SFL Cat]

I have to ask this because, well I just need to know for sure....

Do you really believe that email is real?

Don't ask, don't tell....

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yup, they got my money in that 10 million.

To be fair, it wasn't like people just jumped up and donated money after seeing Palin speak. The Obama campaign sent out a letter requesting donations to their supporters. That provoked the outpouring of donations, not the Palin speech though they'd certainly like people to think that was the reason.

[ace1914]

To be fair, it wasn't like people just jumped up and donated money after seeing Palin speak. The Obama campaign sent out a letter requesting donations to their supporters. That provoked the outpouring of donations, not the Palin speech though they'd certainly like people to think that was the reason.


They send out emails everyday asking for donations.

[Passacaglia]

It's a fair point in terms of her experience but the Democrats also have to remember that small towns ARE America, Republicans dominate there, and its why they win national elections.

2004 County-By-County Map

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countymapredblue.png

Obviously, Democrats get a lot of votes out of those more densley populated blue areas, but I think maps like this help explain why Obama can't pull away with this election even though it FEELS like he's way more popular than McCain. The media portrays the views of those cities.

A lot of interesting stuff on that web site.

Election result maps (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/)

[panerd]

I am voting for Bob Barr. If I had a knife to my throat and had to vote McCain or Obama I would vote McCain. So now let me make a point and not get attacked by the Republicans in this thread...

How can you speak about the last 8 years of Washington doing nothing when it was your party that did nothing? It makes no sense. It's not an Obama talking point, I am not really sure he is fit to lead either.

[Cringer]

Hillary must be having a cow right about now.

Palin Power: Fresh Face Now More Popular Than Obama, McCain (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_power_fresh_face_now_more_popular_than_obama_mccain)

I am not discounting this poll totally, though I don't care much either way. I do find a couple things interesting about it.

1. It was from Friday morning, very early in the "getting to know Palin" curve.

2. Along with number 1 comes this line from the article...She earns positive reviews from 65% of men and 52% of women. The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll shows that Obama continues to lead McCain among women voters while McCain leads among men. She was just announced, guys thought she was hot for a politician and liked her.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Another article detailing the campaign funds. Republicans are now saying that they should be able to match Obama's spending dollar for dollar over the rest of the campaign. Quite a turnaround from the reports a couple of months ago showing Obama with a major funds advantage.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aPN78zX1eg10&refer=worldwide

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Along with number 1 comes this line from the article... She was just announced, guys thought she was hot for a politician and liked her.

The amusing (or discouraging) thing about that is there are a lot of registered voters that will vote for her ticket solely for that reason. It's certainly a dumb reason, but it will happen at some level.

[molson]

After Obama got slammed by some here for not giving any details on how he planned to do the stuff he mentioned in his speech, I was sure glad that McCain gave details.

Oh, wait, he didn't either? Damn.

I think its fair to hold Obama to a higher standard when it comes to explanation and details.

He's the "change" candidate (and yes, that's somewhat muted by McCain's tricky attempts to go there too). He's the one promising things that have never been done before. I don't believe he can actually execute his "vision". From him, I'd need to hear more plans, more specifics, more examples from his experience that show he can deliver what he promises.

With McCain, you know what you get. His "change" is different than Obama's. It's not a dramatic change, it's the Republican party pre-Bush with some adjustments. I get what a McCain presidency would be (with all its flaws). With Obama, I have no idea.

[ace1914]

I think its fair to hold Obama to a higher standard when it comes to explanation and details.

He's the "change" candidate (and yes, that's somewhat muted by McCain's tricky attempts to go there too). He's the one promising things that have never been done before. I don't believe he can actually execute his "vision". From him, I'd need to hear more plans, more specifics, more examples from his experience that show he can deliver what he promises.

With McCain, you know what you get. His "change" is different than Obama's. It's not a dramatic change, it's the Republican party pre-Bush with some adjustments. I get what a McCain presidency would be (with all its flaws). With Obama, I have no idea.

McCain has never been president, so there is no way to know what a McCain presidency is going produce. Did you expect Bush's 8 years to go this way? A McCain presidency is as big of an unknown as Obama.

That's a flawed way to make a decision.

[Young Drachma]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SwwO00aWqM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SwwO00aWqM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

q. How is community organizing relevant for the presidency?

Obama:
This is very curious. They havent talked about the fact that I was a civil rights lawyer, or taught constitutional law, my work in the state legislature, or US Senate, they focused on this 3 years where i worked as a community organizer, right out of college. As if I'm making the leap from 2-3 years out of college to the presidency.

I would argue that doing work in the community, try and create jobs, rejuvenate the communities that have fallen on hard times, bring people together, setup job training programs in areas that have been hard hit where the steel plants have closed. That's relevant only in understanding where im coming from, who i believe in, who im fighting for and why im in this race.

The question I have for them is
Why would that kind of work be ridiculous?
Who are they fighting for?
What are they advocating for?

Do they think that the lives of those folks struggling each and every day, that working with to try and improve their lives is somehow not relevant to the presidency.

I think that is part of the problem, that they are out of touch and don't get it because they haven't spent much time working on behalf of those folks.

[ace1914]

<object width="425" height="344">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SwwO00aWqM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>


Could you please stop presenting every instance of Obama's lack of substance.

[Fighter of Foo]

I think its fair to hold Obama to a higher standard when it comes to explanation and details.


That's bullshit. The lack of and complete fabrication of explanations and details is how our country got into the clusterfuck we're in.

[JPhillips]

Another article detailing the campaign funds. Republicans are now saying that they should be able to match Obama's spending dollar for dollar over the rest of the campaign. Quite a turnaround from the reports a couple of months ago showing Obama with a major funds advantage.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aPN78zX1eg10&refer=worldwide

It's amazing what you can do when you make a mockery of the law you wrote.

[Butter_of_69]

I think its fair to hold Obama to a higher standard when it comes to explanation and details.

Of course you do, because you never had any intention of voting for him.

[Galaril]

I sorta hope McCain does get in now. I'd rather hear more about the wacky adventures of Palin over the next 4 years than the moaning about Obama and his wife!

I agree. Though I hope Obama wins it would be entertaining to have the Clampetts in the White House with the McCains as the Drysdales.

[Flasch186]

Pretty funny to hear some of the comments about McCain's speech being boring or lacking excitement. Anyone who follows politics or has read even portions of this thread knows that McCain's weakest point in the campaign would likely be last night at his acceptance speech. I think the first 60-70% of the speech was mostly just a listing of policies that he would implement without any real barn-burning lines. It was relatively boring, but did lay out some of his ideas going forward. I thought the last 15-20 minutes were much better. That was when he started talking about his military experiences, the current military, and how he would deal with foreign aggression (countries or terrorists). It appeared that he was much more interested in telling those stories and making those points. Much better than the earlier part of the speech.

Overall, it was nothing particularly special and was likely the weakest of the 4 Prez/VP speeches from a presentation standpoint. With that said, most McCain supporters (and voters in general for that matter) knew that in advance and they also know that he's much better in less formal settings. He also did very well in presenting his leadership credentials. The CBSNews poll from late last night after McCain's speech shows a dead heat in overall national polls. If those early poll results are accurate and he pulled even after what most voters would agree was his weakest portion of the campaign, that bodes well for the Republican ticket.

Oh for Christ's sake, are they rolling averages or not and therefore shouldnt be look at or should they?

For fuck sake is it discounted when it's against your side and the high mark when when it benefits your side.

This isn't even a partisan thing, just which one is it?

[molson]

Of course you do, because you never had any intention of voting for him.

As I said, if I thought he was the difference between oil dependence and not, I'd donate ever discretinary dollar I had to his campaign. On that issue alone. If I believed he could somehow deliver a health insurance system that worked, that'd be gravy.

McCain can't do any of that either, of course. On most issues, they're a wash in terms of practicality. But McCain wins some tiebreakers for me in terms of foreign policy and security, and the fact that he scares me a lot less than Obama.

Still voting 3rd party though. But I've set myself to enjoy any result. If Obama wins, it will be fun seeing the dissapointment slowly drift into our concious when nothing changes the way they expect. If McCain wins, it will be fun to see the Democratic party implode.

[Cringer]

I am not discounting this poll totally, though I don't care much either way. I do find a couple things interesting about it.

1. It was from Friday morning, very early in the "getting to know Palin" curve.

2. Along with number 1 comes this line from the article... She was just announced, guys thought she was hot for a politician and liked her.

I will correct myself on #1...I just realized today is Friday morning. :D I was thinking last Friday with that comment, being from this morning it is much more up to date then I was thinking.

[Warhammer]

How can you speak about the last 8 years of Washington doing nothing when it was your party that did nothing? It makes no sense. It's not an Obama talking point, I am not really sure he is fit to lead either.

Bush never governed as a conservative. He never vetoed any spending bill from a Republican Congress. The consequence was that spending increased dramatically. The Congress wanted to do this because how else do you show you're getting stuff done in Washington? Easy, "Hey look at the new bridge I built! Look at the new gleaming roads, those were built with dollars I secured from Washington."

So you had Congress doing what was in their best interest with a President who never questioned anything spendingwise from them. The big problem here is that the Democrats were so antagonistic, the President almost had no choice. If he wanted to get anything done, he had to scratch the Republican Congress' back.

Now, McCain is running on the Republican agenda from 94-96. Reform Washington and cut spending. There is a reason why the later Clinton years were better than the first two. He had a Congress that fought him tooth and nail. They both wound up not getting entirely what they wanted, and the result was a cutting spending and the creation of a nice surplus. The end of the surplus was not from the Bush tax cut, rather it was from the profligate spending that followed.

One thing you can say about McCain is that he does have the best interest of the country at heart. Unlike Obama, who I question every appointment and association, at least McCain hit it out of the park with his VP nomination. She is an anti-establishment Republican. Her roots are closer to Regan and Newt than it is to Bush.

Obama could have been the change candidate, but the more I read about his positions and the more I hear him, the more I see he is a dyed in the wool classic leftist liberal. The only reason why Obama is so appealing is that he speaks well, and he is not a Republican right now.

I want change, but not the change Obama is promising. The government is not the answer to our problems. The answer to our problems is the people of this nation. The change I want, is to limit the power of the government, have it get out of our way and allow the people of this nation to do the great things we have done, when given the chance.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think its fair to hold Obama to a higher standard when it comes to explanation and details.

He's the "change" candidate (and yes, that's somewhat muted by McCain's tricky attempts to go there too). He's the one promising things that have never been done before. I don't believe he can actually execute his "vision". From him, I'd need to hear more plans, more specifics, more examples from his experience that show he can deliver what he promises.

With McCain, you know what you get. His "change" is different than Obama's. It's not a dramatic change, it's the Republican party pre-Bush with some adjustments. I get what a McCain presidency would be (with all its flaws). With Obama, I have no idea.

bullshit. they should both be held to the same standards of explaining what it is they want to do and how they intend to do it.

[Galaril]

Well, it is all about perspective. 7,000 is probably a lot of people for a town in Alaska.

And every city is different... metro Boston kind of ends past Marlborough, after which it seems like there is nothing out there. On the other hand, Metro NYC sprawls for miles and miles... some people even commute into the city from Western PA.

People in Worcester would disagree but they aren't a suburb of Boston metro.

[DaddyTorgo]

Bush never governed as a conservative. He never vetoed any spending bill from a Republican Congress. The consequence was that spending increased dramatically. The Congress wanted to do this because how else do you show you're getting stuff done in Washington? Easy, "Hey look at the new bridge I built! Look at the new gleaming roads, those were built with dollars I secured from Washington."

So you had Congress doing what was in their best interest with a President who never questioned anything spendingwise from them. The big problem here is that the Democrats were so antagonistic, the President almost had no choice. If he wanted to get anything done, he had to scratch the Republican Congress' back.

Now, McCain is running on the Republican agenda from 94-96. Reform Washington and cut spending. There is a reason why the later Clinton years were better than the first two. He had a Congress that fought him tooth and nail. They both wound up not getting entirely what they wanted, and the result was a cutting spending and the creation of a nice surplus. The end of the surplus was not from the Bush tax cut, rather it was from the profligate spending that followed.

One thing you can say about McCain is that he does have the best interest of the country at heart. Unlike Obama, who I question every appointment and association, at least McCain hit it out of the park with his VP nomination. She is an anti-establishment Republican. Her roots are closer to Regan and Newt than it is to Bush.

Obama could have been the change candidate, but the more I read about his positions and the more I hear him, the more I see he is a dyed in the wool classic leftist liberal. The only reason why Obama is so appealing is that he speaks well, and he is not a Republican right now.

I want change, but not the change Obama is promising. The government is not the answer to our problems. The answer to our problems is the people of this nation. The change I want, is to limit the power of the government, have it get out of our way and allow the people of this nation to do the great things we have done, when given the chance.

how is mccain talking about limiting the size of government. didn't he say in his speech last night (i didn't watch, but i heard this) something about giving the federal government the power to hire and fire teachers at a local level??

who's going to do that?? the magical teacher-fairy who doesn't get paid?? NOPE...it's going to be an appointed position with a nice cushy salary. that's going to result in an INCREASED bureaucracy, not a decreased one!

:banghead: WAKE UP!

[DaddyTorgo]

People in Worcester would disagree but they aren't a suburb of Boston metro.

worcester is a cesspool :) 2nd most depressing city in the state (behind springfield)

[molson]

bullshit. they should both be held to the same standards of explaining what it is they want to do and how they intend to do it.

You feel this way because you're an Obama supporter.

But it's not logical. The change candidate needs to explain more than the conservative candidate. Every time, every election, no matter the party.

If there's a debate between staying in the same house and moving, the person who wants to move needs to make their case about why it's better, and how they can afford the new house, and whether it will be worth it in the long run. The person staying really doesn't need to explain much (except maybe why it's a bad idea to move, that it will be expensive and not really improve their standard of living)

[Alan T]

People in Worcester would disagree but they aren't a suburb of Boston metro.

Hi, I live in the nothingness that is known as Wilderness Massachusetts! (I also am 3 minutes from the third largest city in New England) :)

But yeah, I wouldn't call this a suburb of Boston.

[Galaril]

To be fair, it wasn't like people just jumped up and donated money after seeing Palin speak. The Obama campaign sent out a letter requesting donations to their supporters. That provoked the outpouring of donations, not the Palin speech though they'd certainly like people to think that was the reason.

This one did.

[Galaxy]

I am voting for Bob Barr. If I had a knife to my throat and had to vote McCain or Obama I would vote McCain. So now let me make a point and not get attacked by the Republicans in this thread...

How can you speak about the last 8 years of Washington doing nothing when it was your party that did nothing? It makes no sense. It's not an Obama talking point, I am not really sure he is fit to lead either.

I don't think Barr is even on the ballot in New York, or else he would get my vote.

[Alan T]

worcester is a cesspool :) 2nd most depressing city in the state (behind springfield)


And you wanted me to invite you over for a Grill out??? :) If you want to see depressing, drive up 128 every day! That is depressing :)

[DaddyTorgo]

You feel this way because you're an Obama supporter.

But it's not logical. The change candidate needs to explain more than the conservative candidate. Every time, every election, no matter the party.

wrong. they both need to explain how they intend to pay for what they want to do, and what they want to do. it's part of making an informed decision as a voter. because the circumstances are never the same as when the "status quo" candidate or his party's predecessor took office. there's new wrinkles. for instance - in this case - "the war on terror."

We deserve to hear how John McCain would handle the war on terror, just as we deserve to hear how Obama would.

Same thing with the economy - because the economic situation is different (indeed it's different than 1 year ago), we need to know how the candidate will deal with the problems of today, not the challenges that were faced yesterday.

[Alan T]

I thought they both were change candidates.


I would laugh if a candidate came out and said to elect him and he will do everything he can to continue the Bush legacy. They probably wouldn't be very successful, but the humor in it would be great.

[DaddyTorgo]

And you wanted me to invite you over for a Grill out??? :) If you want to see depressing, drive up 128 every day! That is depressing :)

lol yes it is.

haha -- you're not in springfield though right? I don't think i know what town it is exactly that you live in.

I had a friend go to college in Worcester, and one go out by Springfield, so I'm not hating on western-mass, just saying -- it's economically very hurting.

[Galaxy]

I thought they both were change candidates.

Same here.

[molson]

And you wanted me to invite you over for a Grill out??? :) If you want to see depressing, drive up 128 every day! That is depressing :)

I used to have an hour and half commute every day. Route 2 west for 30 miles, then Route 95 South to Needham.

Idaho is beautiful.

[Galaril]

I am voting for Bob Barr. If I had a knife to my throat and had to vote McCain or Obama I would vote McCain. So now let me make a point and not get attacked by the Republicans in this thread...

How can you speak about the last 8 years of Washington doing nothing when it was your party that did nothing? It makes no sense. It's not an Obama talking point, I am not really sure he is fit to lead either.

I thought it was pretty funny that last night McCain is telling the crowd that
the special inetrests groups and lobbyists better be ready to get thrown out of washington. It was ironic of course since probably a lot of the crowd there were lobbyists.:crazy:

[JPhillips]

You feel this way because you're an Obama supporter.

But it's not logical. The change candidate needs to explain more than the conservative candidate. Every time, every election, no matter the party.

If there's a debate between staying in the same house and moving, the person who wants to move needs to make their case about why it's better, and how they can afford the new house, and whether it will be worth it in the long run. The person staying really doesn't need to explain much (except maybe why it's a bad idea to move, that it will be expensive and not really improve their standard of living)

I'd agree if that was McCain's message. If he was saying four more years of what we've been doing, fine. However, he's also positioning himself as the change candidate. By your own logic he has to present how he's going to change things.

[JPhillips]

I thought it was pretty funny that last night McCain is telling the crowd that
the special inetrests groups and lobbyists better be ready to get thrown out of washington. It was ironic of course since probably a lot of the crowd there were lobbyists.:crazy:

And nearly two hundred lobbyists and former lobbyists work on the McCain campaign.

[DaddyTorgo]

I used to have an hour and half commute every day. Route 2 west for 30 miles, then Route 95 South to Needham.

Idaho is beautiful.

Needham? I can spit into Needham from my house. Where'd you work?

[Galaril]

I think its fair to hold Obama to a higher standard when it comes to explanation and details.

He's the "change" candidate (and yes, that's somewhat muted by McCain's tricky attempts to go there too). He's the one promising things that have never been done before. I don't believe he can actually execute his "vision". From him, I'd need to hear more plans, more specifics, more examples from his experience that show he can deliver what he promises.

With McCain, you know what you get. His "change" is different than Obama's. It's not a dramatic change, it's the Republican party Bush with some adjustments. I get what a McCain presidency would be (with all its flaws). With Obama, I have no idea.


Fixed that for you.:cool:

[Alan T]

lol yes it is.

haha -- you're not in springfield though right? I don't think i know what town it is exactly that you live in.

I had a friend go to college in Worcester, and one go out by Springfield, so I'm not hating on western-mass, just saying -- it's economically very hurting.


Nah, I live in the metro-Worcester area (never heard of a metro-Worcester area, so just made it up maybe?) :) Was just saying that Worcester is the third largest city in New England, and pretty much the same practical population as the second largest one (Providence). So was just having fun with the comment someone said that there was nothing west of Marlborough. I mean it is no Wasilla, Alaska but it is not exactly wilderness. :)

But yeah it is ugly, but I find most of the northern Industrial cities ugly. Never really liked Pitssburgh, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Gary, etc either for the same reason. (Of course last time I mentioned that the entire FOFC Indy gang yelled at me about how the city has improved in the last 10 years). :)

[larrymcg421]

While that's certainly true, I would think that Oprah would want Palin on the show simply because she has a compelling story and is new to the national political scene.

I think Oprah is only shortchanging her audience if she doesn't ask Palin on since, it seems, many in her audience would like to see Palin on the show.

Do you honestly think Palin wants to go on Oprah? If I was a Republican strategist, I wouldn't let her go anywhere near that show. I guarantee you, "Pro-life in the case of rape" will be the most talked about issue.

Also, I can't believe we're giving any validity to the Drudge Report. Hold on while I go get a story from Randi Rhodes and we can discuss it.

[Alan T]

I used to have an hour and half commute every day. Route 2 west for 30 miles, then Route 95 South to Needham.

Idaho is beautiful.


I work from home every day. But I couldn't move to Idaho.. I need to have a movie theatre and a billiard hall and sports teams and such within 15 minutes of my house or I'd go crazy.

[Jas_lov]

George Bush talked about those same things in 2000 and look what happened. It's not going to be easy for John McCain to get people to believe that all of a sudden he's the good change candidate and that we should re-elect a Republican because the Republicans screwed up. I voted for Bush in 2000 but I'm not falling for that again. We'll see how the country reacts to it in the polls over the next week.

[molson]

It's a serious point though, in retort to molson's point.

The Republican convention was all about change. They were definitely trying to co-opt that message. So how does that change molson's rubric?

It's tricky for McCain, no doubt.

He's trying to portray himself as a "change" from Bush. And he's always been a "reform" candidate (whatever that means), even back to 2000. But his party is still "conservative" (or at least it used to be).

I don't see him as a real change candidate. But sure, if you're saying that if he's going to portray himself like that, he has to be held to a higher standard in terms of details and practicality and explanations, and experience, that's fair.

[Galaril]

worcester is a cesspool :) 2nd most depressing city in the state (behind springfield)

Yup it sure is.

[Big Fo]

I am shocked and appalled that FOFC's Republican cheerleaders haven't ripped on the lack of substance in McCain's speech last night.

[Warhammer]

Could you please stop presenting every instance of Obama's lack of substance.

That video makes a great case for Obama being a Supreme Court Justice, it does nothing about making me think he is qualified to be President.

Lawyers are great for understanding what can and what cannot be done. It is my experience, that they are not the best candidates to lead. It also explains why he is such a great speaker. He has had plenty of experience doing that. However, speaking and debating is a different skill from getting the job done. Speaking and debating is a great skill to have in Congress. It would help in the White House, but I want someone who has experience in getting stuff done. He doesn't have it. The closest experience he has to that is his community organizer work, which sounds a lot like a social worker to me (the way he explained it).

[larrymcg421]

To try and look at it from an objective viewpoint, McCain riding on the issue of change is a mistake because it frames the debate in terms that are favorable to Obama.

This was much like 2004 when Kerry decided to run heavily on his Vietnam service, which frames the debate on national security, which was very favorable to Bush.

[DaddyTorgo]

Nah, I live in the metro-Worcester area (never heard of a metro-Worcester area, so just made it up maybe?) :) Was just saying that Worcester is the third largest city in New England, and pretty much the same practical population as the second largest one (Providence). So was just having fun with the comment someone said that there was nothing west of Marlborough. I mean it is no Wasilla, Alaska but it is not exactly wilderness. :)

But yeah it is ugly, but I find most of the northern Industrial cities ugly. Never really liked Pitssburgh, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Gary, etc either for the same reason. (Of course last time I mentioned that the entire FOFC Indy gang yelled at me about how the city has improved in the last 10 years). :)

There's some beautiful rural towns out by Worcester though (Grafton, Southborough, Westborough, etc). I actually enjoy it. Just the city itself is very...bleak.

[molson]

I work from home every day. But I couldn't move to Idaho.. I need to have a movie theatre and a billiard hall and sports teams and such within 15 minutes of my house or I'd go crazy.

Boise would be the second biggest city in New England. (though you're absolutely right about the rest of Idaho - its a different world).

[JonInMiddleGA]

We'll see how the country reacts to it in the polls over the next week.

But we still won't know anything that truly matters or counts until the curtain closes & the votes are cast.

My point being that, even for a guy who likes numbers like I do, there's only one poll that really matters in the end. Unless you're directly involved in the campaign strategy & are in a position to make adjustments based on the information, it's all just something to talk about to pass the time between now & November.

[DaddyTorgo]

hahah - small world: i won't post particulars more than this, but molson just told me he used to work for a company that i (unsuccessfully) interviewed with back in like 2004. company in the same building where my dad has worked for the past few years.

smalllllllllll world

[Galaril]

There's some beautiful rural towns out by Worcester though (Grafton, Southborough, Westborough, etc). I actually enjoy it. Just the city itself is very...bleak.

Yes, I lived in Grafton for three years and grew up in Shrewsbury before heading out after college on my globetrotting with military/governmnet. Grfaton is a decent town as are some others like Sturbridge, Westborough, Hopkinton, Upton etc.