Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Noop]

Is it possible for her to be dropped by McCain? No doubt if he were to do that his campaign would be dead in the water.

[Young Drachma]

Is it possible for her to be dropped by McCain? No doubt if he were to do that his campaign would be dead in the water.

He won't. She's his ride or die chick. He's either gonna hit an evangelical home run or he's gonna strike out big. Either way, they're gonna ride this horse to the end of the road.

[Jas_lov]

There's no way he drops her. We haven't even seen her speak yet and she might do really well tonight. Unless that affair thing turns out to be true there's nothing that would make McCain drop her. The Democrats would jump all over McCain's biggest decision as a presidential nominee being a complete disaster and he'd be finished.

[sabotai]

Real Clear Politics just released snippets of tonight's speech by Palin:

Sounds like a really defensive speech. And it looks really hackish and cliche (what speech doesn't, though?).

[Noop]

There's no way he drops her. We haven't even seen her speak yet and she might do really well tonight. Unless that affair thing turns out to be true there's nothing that would make McCain drop her. The Democrats would jump all over McCain's biggest decision as a presidential nominee being a complete disaster and he'd be finished.

What affair thing?

[SirFozzie]

Ouch. I just read up on troopergate on Wikipedia. You have to take it with a whole shaker full of salt, but it looks well referenced, and some of the quotes (from the judge in the divorce case, for example) if true.. just wow. This is the person the Republicans want to be one heartbeat from the presidency? I have to question not only her judgement, but McCain's judgement for selecting her.

Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Public_Safety_Commissioner_dismissal)

[Noop]

Jebus Thrist if this stuff is true then McCain may need to drop her.

[Jas_lov]

What affair thing?

LOL! It's just a rumor and I think it's in the National Enquirer so that's how little credibility it has. I read somewhere that the McCain campaign is threatening a lawsuit against them. If it were true though, it would finish them.

[Noop]

LOL! It's just a rumor and I think it's in the National Enquirer so that's how little credibility it has. I read somewhere that the McCain campaign is threatening a lawsuit against them. If it were true though, it would finish them.

Man she is getting it on all fronts...no pun intended.

[Galaxy]

To my knowledge none of those kid's parent is potentially one heartbeat away from being president of the United States of America. If she can not keep her house in order, how can she potentially run a country.


So you want place a tracker on her kid (s)? Did you drink when you we're 16? Bill Clinton seemed to damaged his family when he was President, but he managed to keep the country running smoothly.

[Noop]

So you want place a tracker on her kid (s)? Did you drink when you we're 16? Bill Clinton seemed to damaged his family when he was President, but he managed to keep the country running smoothly.

No I didn't because I was at the time, an athlete and as such did no succumb to those vices.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So you want place a tracker on her kid (s)?

If that's what it takes to avoid having her kid be a teenage drunk that gets knocked up? You're damned skippy.

At this point, all that's missing seems to be a picture of her & the family hanging out around their trailer park working on the car up on blocks in the front yard next to the pink flamingos.

edit to add -- If you take the politics out of it & just look at the details, Palin seems lot more like a candidate to be on Springer than running for public office. And more & more I'm starting to believe she's far more qualified for the former than the latter.

[Young Drachma]

Obama to Appear on Fox on Thursday Night - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/obama-to-appear-on-fox-on-thursday-night/)

[Flasch186]

And more & more I'm starting to believe she's far more qualified for the former than the latter.

Well I feel like JimGA and I are becoming more in agreement and I dont feel the need to admit to partisanship since Im striving to look at things at face value but any person can see things as they choose in regards to my stance and statements and anyone else's. I truly do not feel she's qualified for the position, especially compared to those that McCain couldve chosen and some on the right agree with that sentiment. Remember, Arles and I agreed that the "Real" scandal (Troopergate) should be allowed to run it's course so that we can get to the truth...The rest of the issues become opinion and valuations regarding 'experience, knowledge, traits, etc.' so there isn't much that is partisan in the real meat of things. When the spin comes it becomes evident and clear. I stated in Alaska that Troppergate was a big deal (I was there at the time), I said it should be allowed to be investigated, and the truth should be allowed to come out....How does Arles feel about Troopergate? 'nothing to see here, move along...' but I argue "We dont know yet and we should be allowed to find out the truth." where is the partisanship?

[ISiddiqui]

Obama to Appear on Fox on Thursday Night - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/obama-to-appear-on-fox-on-thursday-night/)

Part of me sees this as a dick move. When Obama was speaking, all McCain did was release an ad congratulating Obama. Obama is planning to steal some thunder from McCain by appearing on a (most likely) very hyped interview with O'Reilly? Bad form... should have been on Friday.

[Flasch186]

Firoina's talking, "McCain will achieve a balanced budget by 2013..." Isnt that a long time? I dont know realistically but it seems long.

[Flasch186]

Part of me sees this as a dick move. When Obama was speaking, all McCain did was release an ad congratulating Obama. Obama is planning to steal some thunder from McCain by appearing on a (most likely) very hyped interview with O'Reilly? Bad form... should have been on Friday.


agreed, bad form and bad quid pro quo vs. how the RNC treated his convention. Not a good move but will people recognize it as so outside of us who pay attention to such things?

[ISiddiqui]

Firoina's talking, "McCain will achieve a balanced budget by 2013..." Isnt that a long time? I dont know realistically but it seems long.

Well, I think it was just a we'll be balanced by the end of McCain's 1st term... and that doesn't preclude hitting that a bit earlier.

[JonInMiddleGA]

agreed, bad form and bad quid pro quo vs. how the RNC treated his convention. Not a good move but will people recognize it as so outside of us who pay attention to such things?

Eh, both sides are attempting to play to (what they perceive as) their own advantage. If Obama figures he'll get more mileage from the interview than from doing a reciprocal ad or nothing at all, then I've got no problem with it. McCain was just looking for an edge, Obama is entitled to the same AFAIC.

[Flasch186]

but cant you balance a budget quicker, I mean Im not talking running a surplus or eating into the deficit but I guess i just thought it would be faster than that but I guess I never thought about how long it would take before.

[Flasch186]

Eh, both sides are attempting to play to (what they perceive as) their own advantage. If Obama figures he'll get more mileage from the interview than from doing a reciprocal ad or nothing at all, then I've got no problem with it. McCain was just looking for an edge, Obama is entitled to the same AFAIC.


But it's different John, An ad is expected and almost gets ignored....Obama going on Fox News (a known critic of his) during the RNC convention is attractive and stealing of 'their' moment. During the DNC convention all I saw the Republicans do was after night commentary and Larry King....and it was never McCain out there. This is different and IMO poor form.

[ISiddiqui]

but cant you balance a budget quicker, I mean Im not talking running a surplus or eating into the deficit but I guess i just thought it would be faster than that but I guess I never thought about how long it would take before.

It didn't preclude balancing the budget quicker ;).

Remember, the Clinton Administration passed his budget bill to deal with the debt in 1993 (his first year in office) and the budget didn't get balanced until Clinton's 2nd term.

[DaddyTorgo]

But it's different John, An ad is expected and almost gets ignored....Obama going on Fox News (a known critic of his) during the RNC convention is attractive and stealing of 'their' moment. During the DNC convention all I saw the Republicans do was after night commentary and Larry King....and it was never McCain out there. This is different and IMO poor form.

isn't part (most) of the blame on Fox News too though? for asking him on that night?

[Young Drachma]

At best, he escapes with his teeth in the same place. They'll bust him up really good and it'll be like Saddleback. Another way to embolden the right wing base. But far better than say, a reciprocal ad. Not that I think it's out of the realm of crazy for him to consider doing it.

[Flasch186]

no...theyre job is to get ratings. I wonder if they;ll get pressured to drop him though. If they did, though, he'd probably just go on somewhere else. I dont think it's playing fair....and Fox should just keep him if he's just going to go on somewhere else.

[Young Drachma]

Can't wait to hear what Mitt has to say. Wonder how many total delegates Ron Paul will have at the end of the night.

[Jas_lov]

One thing is for sure, Palin can't do any worse than Romney who lost me with his sun rising in the west opening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But it's different John, An ad is expected and almost gets ignored....Obama going on Fox News (a known critic of his) during the RNC convention is attractive and stealing of 'their' moment. ... This is different and IMO poor form.

I think it's pretty brilliant to tell you the truth, and I'd bet that Obama's camp offered it as a one-night-only opportunity to Fox News.

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin', you know that by now ;)

[Young Drachma]

"Stubborn kind of integrity that we need in a President."

Auspicious start, Huck.

[Flasch186]

Looks like Huckabee's going with the 'the media is all against us' vein....

We'll see if it works.

[Young Drachma]

I still don't see how the GOP thinks that talking change is gonna sell folks.

[Young Drachma]

Huck is comin' hard. It's gonna be a barn burner tonight. Can't wait to see the papers in the mornin'.

[Young Drachma]

I will say, I learned something tonight. I had no idea John McCain was a brave man who served in Vietnam and was a POW. They ought to cover that more and boost up that narrative.

[DaddyTorgo]

I will say, I learned something tonight. I had no idea John McCain was a brave man who served in Vietnam and was a POW. They ought to cover that more and boost up that narrative.

mmhmm

because you know...clearly that alone makes him fit to be president

[path12]

Did I really see Romney railing against the Eastern elitists? Seriously?

[Flasch186]

Palin wants quick state board ruling in trooper probe - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/03/palin.investigation/index.html)

some movement on Troopergate.

[DaddyTorgo]

Did I really see Romney railing against the Eastern elitists? Seriously?


:lol:

[SirFozzie]

No, that's more like trying to short-circuit it by handing it off to another group.

Palin wants investigation yanked from Legislature: Gov. Sarah Palin | adn.com (http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/514056.html)

The Legislature plans to go forward with its investigation, said Sen. Hollis French, an Anchorage Democrat and former state prosecutor who is project director for the case.

That investigation isn't just examining potential abuse of power by the governor, but also others in her administration, French said.

"We're going to proceed. If they want to proceed, that's perfectly within their right but it doesn't diminish our right to do so," he said.

The Legislature's special counsel Steve Branchflower so far has not been able to depose either Palin or her husband, Todd. Van Flein indicated the governor likely will not agree to a deposition unless lawmakers turn the matter over the Personnel Board.

[Flasch186]

I said movement so you didnt have to say "no" as it is movement. Stinks that she and her husband wont cooperate with investigation by being deposed, if that's true.

[Radii]

but cant you balance a budget quicker, I mean Im not talking running a surplus or eating into the deficit but I guess i just thought it would be faster than that but I guess I never thought about how long it would take before.


Referenced at factcheck.org:


According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, "without substantial cuts in government spending" Obama’s plan – and McCain's, too – "would substantially increase the national debt over the next ten years."

There is a link to the Tax Policy Center's report, apparently my IP range is banned from that site :(

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411750_updated_candidates_summary.pdf


factcheck.org mentions multiple times that both candidate's are expected to increase the national debt by trillions based on plans laid out so far when discussing commercials where they've attacked each others tax plans.

[SirFozzie]

I said movement so you didnt have to say "no" as it is movement. Stinks that she and her husband wont cooperate with investigation by being deposed, if that's true.

The only movement it is is a bowel movement. She's learned from the Bushes well.

[Flasch186]

well that just sucks, about the budgets and their deficits on both sides.

[Jas_lov]

Who cares about budgets and deficits, they made Levi shave his head! Bristol and Levi do look like a happy couple and Cindy McCain looks good in puke green.

[Young Drachma]

Who cares about budgets and deficits, they made Levi shave his head! Bristol and Levi do look like a happy couple and Cindy McCain looks good in puke green.

Seriously. Imagine the text messages he's getting from his hockey buddies? Yeesh.

[Galaxy]

How many sisters does Sarah have?

[Flasch186]

Rudy's giving a good speech, he's really good at it. He seems to connect with the audience.

How does 'reducing gov't. strengthen the $'?

[Galaxy]

Rudy's giving a good speech, he's really good at it. He seems to connect with the audience.

It's a good speech. He's always has been a strong speaker.

[DaddyTorgo]

Rudy's giving a good speech, he's really good at it. He seems to connect with the audience.

noun + verb + 9/11 right? rinse and repeat

[Flasch186]

ouch, did he just say the word "islamic" offends terrorists? Maybe I heard it wrong. Im not sure I even understand the point but I wonder what he meant.

[Young Drachma]

Rudy saves America!

[Galaxy]

ouch, did he just say the word "islamic" offends terrorists? Maybe I heard it wrong. Im not sure I even understand the point but I wonder what he meant.

I really didn't get that part.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Think the GOP could just, you know, sub Rudy in for McCain for public appearances between now & November?

Walked through the den & right into the middle of his barn burner. Solid gap power to go with some that cleared the fences while I was watching.

[Jas_lov]

He said when you use the word islamic terrorists you offend terrorists. John McCain didn't change his position on the surge to win an election, but didn't he change his position on other issues to appear more Republican?

[Galaxy]

noun + verb + 9/11 right? rinse and repeat

I really didn't hear many 9/11 references (I was worried he would use them a lot).

[Galaxy]

I don't trust Rudi's wife just by looking at her.

[Flasch186]

I thought his speech has been pretty much perfect.

[Young Drachma]

I don't trust Rudi's wife just by looking at her.

Mistress in the mayor's mansion ftfw

[Young Drachma]

It's not an accident to have say, Cindy McCain next to Bristol Palin to relieve her of baby holding duty. She's been toting that kid around by herself since this whole deal started. Not that it's unexpected in a big family, but..geez.

[Galaxy]

I like how they keep showing Bristol's fiancee.

[Young Drachma]

Guess Rudy talked too long, so they jettisoned Lingle and just let the star have the show.

[sabotai]

Well at least "thank you" to Rudy go going too long for them to show the 15 minute educational video of Podunk, Alaska and its former mayor.

[Flasch186]

Well it's gonna be hard for her to follow Rudy and get the climax of the night but she certainly can coast in now, great lead in by Rudy.

[MrDNA]

Guiliani's speech was surprisingly negative. I think he had a lead pipe behind the podium, just in case he needed to ramp it up a notch.

[Young Drachma]

Are they gonna keep trotting the John S. McCain talk, so they can start calling Barack Hussein?

[JPhillips]

Is it just me or has Palin lost some of her accent since her acceptance?

[Young Drachma]

And her accent is gonna win her some fans in Ordinarylandia.

[Young Drachma]

Is it just me or has Palin lost some of her accent since her acceptance?

Seems to me like she's turning it up a notch.

[TazFTW]

Guess Rudy talked too long, so they jettisoned Lingle and just let the star have the show.

Lingle went before Rudy.

[Flasch186]

Is it just me or has Palin lost some of her accent since her acceptance?

no.

[MrDNA]

Based on Palin's kids' names, if we aquire any new states during a McCain term, I hope she doesn't get to name them.

[sabotai]

Snow....machine racer? WTF is that?

EDIT: Googled it. Snow mobiles. They call them "snow machines" in Alaska?

[Jas_lov]

Especially the special needs kid. Vote for her if you have a special needs kid because she has one too. When is she going to shutup about her family?

[Young Drachma]

Lingle went before Rudy.

Oh gotcha.

[MrDNA]

I didn't watch Biden's speech - did he do all this "Here I am, this is my background/family" crap?

[Young Drachma]

Snow....machine racer? WTF is that?

Alaskans called snowmobiles snow machines.

It's really funny the first time you hear it. It's so weird that even people in Wyoming go "what?"

[Galaxy]

Snow....machine racer? WTF is that?

Snowmobile racer.

[Galaxy]

So you guys want to know who she is, with the leftist trying to dig up all the information on her, but then get mad that she goes on to explain it?

[Flasch186]

she winged it on an adlib and hit a zinger, nice.

"you know the difference between a hockey mom and a pitbull....Lipstick."

[sabotai]

Was that a party crasher they were taking out?

[Young Drachma]

Man. Going after Barry.

[Galaxy]

she winged it on an adlib and hit a zinger, nice.

"you know the difference between a hockey mom and a pitbull....Lipstick."

That was a pretty good zinger.

[MrDNA]

Yes, Ms. Palin, it's because you're not part of "Washington Elite" that people don't think you're qualified. Sheesh.

[Young Drachma]

Say what you want though...she's been preening for a moment like this and man, she's playing right into the hands of her audience. The left-wing nuts are gonna have to play this one with kid gloves and treat her like she's irrelevant or else, the folks that elected W are gonna ignore McCain to elect their female Reagan.

[mauchow]

Where ever he goes and whoever is listening, john mccain is the same man...?

I guess I didn't get that.

[sterlingice]

I didn't watch Biden's speech - did he do all this "Here I am, this is my background/family" crap?

Not really - he spent maybe the first sixth or so on himself and then went onto policy stuff. But what else does she have to fill the time? Lame standup, I guess.

SI

[Galaxy]

Not really - he spent maybe the first sixth or so on himself and then went onto policy stuff. But what else does she have to fill the time? Lame standup, I guess.

SI

But everyone knows Biden.

[MrDNA]

Did she just say she stuck it to Big Oil? Before or after her husband got all that dough?

[SFL Cat]

Yes, Ms. Palin, it's because you're not part of "Washington Elite" that people don't think you're qualified. Sheesh.

Actually, I think that one will probably resonate.

[Jas_lov]

Why do they keep knocking Obama's community work? Is this a good strategy to win over undecideds? She's a likeable person but I couldn't imagine her being President. She's doing a pretty good job though.

[mauchow]

Woopsies. They showed the prompt going across the screen on tv.. lol

[Young Drachma]

Vote Sarah! She's one of us!

Maybe this is just a setup for her '12 run with Bobby Jindal. Barack Obama = Jimmy Carter?

[Young Drachma]

Why do they keep knocking Obama's community work? Is this a good strategy to win over undecideds? She's a likeable person but I couldn't imagine her being President. She's doing a pretty good job though.

Because they don't even know what community organizers do. To them, it's like neighborhood watch.

[MrDNA]

Can anyone make out what the crowd is cheering other than "USA"?

[sterlingice]

It's a very effective speech for the goal of playing to the right. The moderates might be a bit more put off, tho. She's gotten off some really nice zingers and played the "I'm a down home mom" thing well but sheneeds to lay off it soon or look like someone who just rolled off the PTA.

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

[sabotai]

Why do they keep knocking Obama's community work? Is this a good strategy to win over undecideds? She's a likeable person but I couldn't imagine her being President. She's doing a pretty good job though.

I wonder if that's a smart choice. I don't know what a "community organizer" does, but they probably have some sway over the community they "organize" and Palin might have offended them a bit with that line.

[Galaxy]

Not being a leftist and generally uninterested in the scandals, I just found it kind of creepy when she started to talk about special needs kids, the camera zooms onto her husband and child, and then he stands up with the baby.

She has been very impressive though, very charismatic. It's funny, because she's like the GOP Obama.

I understand that. However, isn't the media in control of the cameras?

At least Flasch and you seem open to being non-bias on the speeches tonight, even though you seem to lean to the left.

[MrDNA]

They gave her some good lines. Although I don't get the idea of "Obama is a good speaker, hence a bad choice."

[Galaxy]

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

This is what needs to be cleared up. If a man sounds tough, he sounds great (like Rudi or Obama). However, if a woman sounds tough, she sounds like a bitch/asshole.

[Flasch186]

I think her speech has been absolutely perfect. They recognize the audience, she's engaged, she self depricating, she's been poignant, been issue-centric, and had zingers and pulled them off. If Obama's speech was perfect for that same stuff, so has this been. She killed it tonight....and she's not done yet.

[JPhillips]

It's a very effective speech for the goal of playing to the right. The moderates might be a bit more put off, tho. She's gotten off some really nice zingers and played the "I'm a down home mom" thing well but sheneeds to lay off it soon or look like someone who just rolled off the PTA.

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

I'm really interested in the numbers on moderates over the next couple of days. No doubt she's giving a barn burner for the base, but is it playing to moderates? I don't claim to know, but it certainly seems that she's more focused on the right than the middle.

Not a bad line on career's to promote change. She's got rhetorical skills.

[MrDNA]

I'm really interested in the numbers on moderates over the next couple of days. No doubt she's giving a barn burner for the base, but is it playing to moderates? I don't claim to know, but it certainly seems that she's more focused on the right than the middle.

Exactly what I was wondering. It's a lot easier to get the captive audience targeted. I know Guiliani's rhetoric turned me off.


Off topic: She just called the senate the "Do nothing senate." Erm... isn't that McCain's experience she just badmouthed?

[JPhillips]

This is a really difficult task for the Republicans. They seem to have pivoted to a reform message, but they're largely arguing to reform Republican government. That's tough to make work.

[Racer]

It's a very effective speech for the goal of playing to the right. The moderates might be a bit more put off, tho. She's gotten off some really nice zingers and played the "I'm a down home mom" thing well but sheneeds to lay off it soon or look like someone who just rolled off the PTA.

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

+1

[sabotai]

After her talking about McCain being tortured, I am wondering what her stance is on "enhanced interrogation techniques"...

[Flasch186]

its certainly an interesting play that the RNC is trying to corner the market on change...I expected security but change I felt was clearly the DNC's forte (not Matt). We'll see if it sticks....


she just finished and I thought she was spot on tonight. Only one gripe...here at the end, theyre bringing out the family which is cool but I need them to say that the discussion of the pregnancy and the upcoming nuptuals (I heard the word fiancee today) is back on the table since theyve trotted her out in the tightest maternity dress made.

[Galaxy]

I think her speech has been absolutely perfect. They recognize the audience, she's engaged, she self depricating, she's been poignant, been issue-centric, and had zingers and pulled them off. If Obama's speech was perfect for that same stuff, so has this been. She killed it tonight....and she's not done yet.

I agree with you.

[Galaxy]

For your abstinence ads, just use Levi. Knock a girl up, and you become part of a presidential election and potentially the son-of-law of the United States VP.

[Young Drachma]

For your abstinence ads, just use Levi. Knock a girl up, and you become part of a presidential election and potentially the son-of-law of the United States VP.

For reals.

[ace1914]

For your abstinence ads, just use Levi. Knock a girl up, and you become part of a presidential election and potentially the son-of-law of the United States VP.

Is it me or does Levi looked pissed on stage.

[JPhillips]

Levi looks like the most uncomfortable guy in the world.

[Jas_lov]

Levi looks good up there chewing gum. I hope he parlayed this into a powerful position in the McCain Administration.

[Galaxy]

Levi looks like the most uncomfortable guy in the world.

I got that sense all night. He's probably thinking, "What the hell did I get into"?

[Young Drachma]

Levi looks like the most uncomfortable guy in the world.

He looked okay earlier in the event, at least the two of them seem to look okay interacting with each other. The daughter is the one that looks uncomfortable. I mean, as if she doesn't has enough to deal with...

[Young Drachma]

I got that sense all night. He's probably thinking, "What the hell did I get into"?

+1

Imagine how his parents must be feeling...

[DaddyTorgo]

I agree flasch - if they're going to trot out the pregnant daughter and the baby-daddy all the time (and use them to try to garner votes) then they become fair-game

[JPhillips]

what worse this national anthem or democrat cover band?

[Cringer]

This just showed me why I didn't watch 95% of the DNC and haven't watched any of the RNC until tonight. I am personally fed up with 'cheap shots' at the other side. This woman's speech had many in it. I am sure the others did as well, but hers was the only one I watched and by the middle of it I was thinking I would vote for Obama until I told myself that side was probably just as pathetic.

[sterlingice]

This is what needs to be cleared up. If a man sounds tough, he sounds great (like Rudi or Obama). However, if a woman sounds tough, she sounds like a bitch/asshole.

No, no, 1000 times no. This isn't a man/woman thing.

One, Obama is rarely "tough". It's just not his style or schtick.

Two, if a guy had delivered her speech- he's either a party schill or a bully. Rudy was the latter tonight. But people have seen him and know him and many people have tired of him since they know he's a blowhard. No one is treading new ground by calling Rudy a bully.

SI

[sabotai]

what worse this national anthem or democrat cover band?

Too tough to decide, kill 'em both.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah. Most elections have both sides moving to the middle. This one, it seems like the Republicans are spending their time reassuring their most willing supporters and not pulling in the middle. The Democrats did so as well, but MUCH less then the Repubs are

[Flasch186]

not as bad as the country schtick here at the end however Im not a fan of country music to begin with but the pledge mixed with the star spangled banner and now the concert.....sheesh.

[sabotai]

But people have seen him and know him and many people have tired of him since they know he's a blowhard.

*raises hand*

[Vegas Vic]

I think her speech has been absolutely perfect. They recognize the audience, she's engaged, she self depricating, she's been poignant, been issue-centric, and had zingers and pulled them off. If Obama's speech was perfect for that same stuff, so has this been. She killed it tonight....and she's not done yet.

And she infuriated CNN, the New York Times and FOFC, so obviously she knocked it out of the park.

[Cringer]

I do like how the kid they are forcing their teen daughter to marry there. That is classic and says "we want privacy" all over it.

Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... she definitely is a great speaker. I had heard stuff about it prior to this, but I hadn't realize just how good and confident she is up there. She was easily the best speaker of the night, and knowing what I know of McCain, probably the best speaker of the Convention.

[Young Drachma]

And she infuriated CNN, the New York Times and FOFC, so obviously she knocked it out of the park.

We could've predicted that BEFORE this happened. I mean, she could've sat up there and performed her routine from the Miss Alaska pageant and they'd have cheered just as much.

[Young Drachma]

Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

+1

That baby is a prop. Independent woman or not...all we have to go on is what we see and what we see, ain't good.

[ace1914]

Wow... she definitely is a great speaker. I had heard stuff about it prior to this, but I hadn't realize just how good and confident she is up there. She was easily the best speaker of the night, and knowing what I know of McCain, probably the best speaker of the Convention.


Guliani set her up well too.

[Galaxy]

I do like how the kid they are forcing their teen daughter to marry there. That is classic and says "we want privacy" all over it.

Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

The media is the one who dug up about Bristol's pregnancy and her baby.

The second line just hits the wrong nerve with me.

[Flasch186]

she told the Lawyer vetting her last week and she's the one who said that they wanted to keep it a "private matter" and asked for respect. We do....but it's not fair to say that and then start accentuating it all. The 2 dont line up SO one needs to move to the other. they say that they understand it is in the public space now or they treat it like a private matter, then it's fine and my brain makes sense of it.

[ace1914]

It sounds like McCain is taking the exact same route of Hillary Clinton type attacks against Obama down the stretch. Well see if it works.

[ISiddiqui]

Two, if a guy had delivered her speech- he's either a party schill or a bully. Rudy was the latter tonight. But people have seen him and know him and many people have tired of him since they know he's a blowhard. No one is treading new ground by calling Rudy a bully.

Party/schill or bully is FAR more tame than bitch. Its the same tactics that the right went after with Hillary Clinton. A tough woman become a bitch. A tough man stands strong, etc.

[Flasch186]

either perfect or poor timing but, troopergate movement that flies in the face of her not knowing about it all so me and Arles are right that this seems to have some legs:

Report: Palin sent e-mails complaining of trooper - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_troopergate)

Report: Palin sent e-mails complaining of trooper

By STEVE QUINN, Associated Press Writer 58 minutes ago

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Gov. Sarah Palin sent e-mails to the state's top police official, criticizing Alaska State Troopers for their investigation of an officer who went through a bitter divorce with her sister, a newspaper reported Wednesday.

Former Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan showed copies of the e-mails to The Washington Post. He didn't provide copies to the newspaper, but said he has turned copies over to an investigator probing the firing for the Legislature.

Monegan has said he felt pressured by Palin family members and her administration to fire Trooper Mike Wooten, whom they say threatened to kill Palin's father, among other accusations, all taking place before she became governor. Monegan was fired by Palin in July.

The Post reported on its Web site that the e-mails were sent from Palin's personal Yahoo account. In one, dated Feb. 7, 2007, it says of the investigation of Wooten: "This trooper is still out on the street, in fact he's been promoted."

"It was a joke, the whole long 'investigation' of him," says the e-mail, sent giving Monegan permission to speak before a bill being heard by the Legislature. "This is the same trooper who's out there today telling people the new administration is going to destroy the trooper organization, and that he'd 'never work for that b '," Palin'.)"

The second e-mail was sent July 17, 2007, discussing a bill before lawmakers that would prevent the mentally ill from having guns.

The e-mail says the first thought "went to my ex-brother-in-law, the trooper, who threatened to kill my dad yet was not even reprimanded by his bosses and still to this day carried a gun, of course."

Palin has strongly denied that Monegan's dismissal had anything to do with her former brother-in-law. She said she never pressured the commissioner to fire her sister's ex-husband and no one from her office had complained about Wooten.

Monegan has said he was never told directly to fire Wooten but felt pressured by members of the governor's family and administration.

There was no answer at Monegan's rural Anchorage home on Wednesday afternoon, and his phone rang unanswered.

Messages left by The Associated Press with the McCain campaign and with her office were not immediately returned.

The content of the e-mails surfaced as an aide to Palin refused to give a deposition to a legislative investigator reviewing Palin's firing of Monegan.

An attorney for Palin aide Frank Bailey questions whether the Legislature has jurisdiction to investigate Monegan's dismissal. The position taken by attorney Greg Grebe on Bailey's behalf echoes the argument by a lawyer hired by the state to defend Palin and her office in the investigation.

When the investigation was launched, Palin said she and her staff would cooperate fully with the investigation.

On Wednesday, Palin's lawyer, Thomas Van Flein, released a letter sent the previous day, asking the state to suspend the investigation until the question of jurisdiction is resolved.

If granted, it could delay announcing whether the investigator found that Palin abused her power in dismissing the commissioner. The results were expected Oct. 31, a week before the November election.

Van Flein on Tuesday also asked the state's personnel board to investigate the firing, trying to pre-empt the legislative investigation.

In 2005, before Palin ran for office, the Palin family accused trooper Mike Wooten of drinking beer in his patrol car, illegally shooting a moose and firing a Taser at his 11-year-old stepson. Palin and her husband, Todd, also claimed Wooten threatened to kill Sarah Palin's father. Wooten, who hasn't returned numerous phone calls left by The Associated Press this week, was suspended over the allegations for five days in 2006 but still has his job.

Palin was elected governor in 2006.

In July, the legislature launched a $100,000 investigation into whether Palin abused her power in firing Monegan.

Monegan has said no one told him directly to fire Wooten, but has said he felt pressure from Palin's family members, including her husband Todd, and administration to do so.

At the time Palin fired him, the governor said she wanted the department to move in a new direction. But later, after Monegan said he felt pressured to fire Wooten, Palin at a news conference said Monegan wasn't a team player, didn't do enough to fill trooper vacancies and battle alcohol abuse issues in rural Alaska.

Grebe said he expects Palin's attorney to file a court challenge to determine which agency has jurisdiction, perhaps as early as Thursday.

When he learned this, Grebe said he told Bailey not to keep his Tuesday evening appointment until jurisdiction could be determined by a judge or agreed upon by Van Flein and the Legislature's investigator, Stephen Branchflower.

"I can't choose one side or the other," Grebe said. "That's not our place to decide that. Normally courts decide disputes like that, so I'll wait to hear from them first."

Neither Van Flein nor Bailey, the director of boards and commissioners who is on paid administrative leave, could be reached Wednesday for comment.

Sen. Hollis French, an Anchorage Democrat overseeing the investigation, said Bailey is the first person who refused to testify.

"It slows down the work that Mr. Branchflower is doing," French said. "Steve went through a lot of trouble to set up this date.

"It's still premature to say the governor is not cooperating because Bailey has his own lawyer doing this."

Bailey was caught on tape questioning an Alaska State Trooper official why an officer who went through a bitter divorce with Palin's sister was still employed.

In the recorded conversation, Bailey said: "Todd and Sarah are scratching their heads, why on earth hasn't, why is this guy still representing the department? He's a horrible recruiting tool. ... You know, I mean from their perspective, everyone's protecting him."

Palin called the conversation "most disturbing" and "problematic."

At the time Bailey, a mid-level administrator, told The Associated Press that he was worried for the governor's safety and acted on his own without telling Palin or her family.

Grebe said Bailey plans to maintain his stance on what happened, but won't do so until a judge has ruled on the jurisdiction.

"He's going to say the same thing all along, that he overstepped his bounds and the mistake was made by him," Grebe said. "I'm hoping for one shot at this but only when somebody can show me they have jurisdiction for what they are doing."

[Jas_lov]

Maybe her speech was supposed to appeal to the base to solidify that vote and McCain's speech tomorrow will go after the moderates. But which narrative of McCain will be effective- Maverick, Independent, Reformer McCain or McSame is running for George Bush's 3rd term.

I say this because the GOP didn't really go after the #1 issue among independents tonight, the economy. They instead focused on attacking Obama for being a community organizer, drill baby drill, and islamofacists.

[SFL Cat]

She hit the taxes pretty hard, actually.

[Galaxy]

Bottom line:

If you like Obama and are a Democrat (in general), you won't like Palin (no matter how strong of a speaker she is) or McCain.

Vice versa for McCain and Republicans on Obama/Biden.

[SFL Cat]

I usually make it a point not to vote for socialists with Marxist leanings...and usually those tend to graze on the Democrat side of the yard.

[ISiddiqui]

Unlikely allies for Palin:

Most Emailed News Stories (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13129.html)

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Sarah Palin found some unlikely allies Wednesday as leading academics and even former top aides to Hillary Rodham Clinton endorsed the Republican charge that John McCain’s running mate has been subject to a sexist double standard by the news media and Democrats.

Georgetown University professor Deborah Tannen, who has written best-selling books on gender differences, said she agrees with complaints that Palin skeptics — including prominent voices in the news media — have crossed a line by speculating about whether the Alaska governor is neglecting her family in pursuit of national office.

“What we’re dealing with now, there’s nothing subtle about it,” said Tannen. “We’re dealing with the assumption that child-rearing is the job of women and not men. Is it sexist? Yes.”

“There’s no way those questions would be asked of a male candidate,” said Howard Wolfson a former top strategist for Clinton’s presidential campaign.

Even so, many media and liberal voices have made the job easy for McCain’s spin squadrons. Among the eyebrow-raising comments in recent days:

• Democrat Joe Biden, in what he intended as self-deprecating remark, observed, “There's a gigantic difference between John McCain and Barack Obama and between me and I suspect my vice presidential opponent. ... She's good looking."

• A spokeswoman for the National Organization for Women, noting Palin’s opposition to abortion rights and support of other parts of the social conservative agenda, told Politico, “She's more a conservative man than she is a woman on women's issues. Very disappointing."

• Liberal radio host Ed Schultz used the words “bimbo alert” to refer to Palin, and the Huffington Post featured a photo montage of Palin with the headline, “Former Beauty Queen, Future VP?”

• CNN’s John Roberts recently pondered on air: “Children with Down’s syndrome require an awful lot of attention. The role of vice president, it seems to me, would take up an awful lot of her time, and it raises the issue of how much time will she have to dedicate to her newborn child?”

This line of inquiry was echoed by writer Sally Quinn, who in her “On Faith” column for washingtonpost.com agreed that Palin is a “bright, attractive, impressive person,” but also asked, “is she prepared for the all-consuming nature of the job?”

“Her first priority has to be her children,” Quinn wrote. “When the phone rings at 3 in the morning and one of her children is really sick what choice will she make?”

There is little question that these questions are being asked around kitchen tables. But there are recent examples of a double standard.

Former Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) was more frequently praised for his perseverance than hazed for misplaced priorities when he continued his presidential campaign even after wife Elizabeth Edwards was diagnosed with an incurable form of cancer. The couple has two children still at home, ages 10 and 8.

Edwards was himself a close finalist for a vice presidential nod in 2000, when Al Gore nearly tapped him at a time when he had served the same amount of time in the U.S. Senate that Palin has as Alaska governor, and about the same amount of time that Barack Obama had served when he began his presidential quest two years ago.

Phil Singer, who worked with Wolfson on Clinton’s campaign, said the news media tend to focus on different sets of subjects when covering women candidates. He noted articles on Clinton’s cleavage, and whether she had the personality of a “bitch.”

“There’s no question that the issues a woman has to deal with are different,” Singer said, adding that, “The real indictment that needs to be prosecuted is about her views, not her personal life.”

[sterlingice]

Party/schill or bully is FAR more tame than bitch. Its the same tactics that the right went after with Hillary Clinton. A tough woman become a bitch. A tough man stands strong, etc.

I disagree completely. Party schill is tamer, to be sure. However, bully and bitch are two gender specific sides of the same coin. They're the same idea but apply to different genders. It's the same way people use the term asshole and bitch to describe the same people/actions, just with gender distinctions.

SI

[JPhillips]

There needs to be a corollary to Godwin's Law dealing with marxism.

[Swaggs]

I thought she did a great job of delivering several "soundbyte" type of lines that will get a lot of play in the news. She came off way tougher than I would have imagined and pretty hawkish -- it will be interesting to see how it plays among undecideds. I think the Republican base is going to be fired up (and that has been enough in the past two elections), but I'm not sure if Palin is going to attract new voters very well.

She did mention "victory" in Iraq several times, so I would have liked to hear what that entails from her point of view.

Also, agreed with the previous post about McCain's message. With the time advantage he had in winning his primary earlier than Obama, he has really had trouble figuring out a message to identify himself with. He has kind of floated ideas to see if they stick (the surge, the celebrity/elitist attack stuff, the off-shore drilling, experience), now it seems like he has settled on his biography, which I think is probably his best asset and best bet in the current climate.

[Cringer]

The media is the one who dug up about Bristol's pregnancy and her baby.

The second line just hits the wrong nerve with me.

Ok, just to point it out clearly since it may not be known since I don't post in this thread much....I am not voting Obama or McCain. I am independent, and will go third party since I don't like either side enough to vote for one of them.


1. Because the media digs something up that you want privacy about, you are going to turn a 180 and give them all they want? Including bringing the kid to the RNC? It doesn't show me they really want to keep it that private, and it does show me they are willing to use it to their advantage if they can. I am pretty sure the media didn't get him a flight out there. Though if they did I will stand corrected. And laugh because that would be funny.

2. Sorry that one rubs you wrong, but that is how I feel, and I would guess I am right about it. I can't see too much quality time set aside for baby while trying to campaign and be a governor at the same time. Of course the 'back to work three days after birth' kind of supports me on that one a little.

[JPhillips]

I've said, and continue to believe the good mother stuff is way out of bounds. However, that article, if it's going to mention something as tame as Biden's "good looking" has to mention Limbaugh's "babe" or someone at the National Review talking about her as a dirty librarian. I don't think Biden meant it as a sexist attack, but even if he did there's lots of company among Palin supporters.

[Swaggs]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and forecast that Saturday Night Live will have a sketch about the Palins handing the baby off and/or losing track of him.

[JPhillips]

I should add that I am interested in the dissonance between voting for her and holding a "woman's place is in the home" mindset that is held by a number of conservatives that will vote for her. Ideally, though, that doesn't slam her as a mother, but enlightens those that think a woman's role should be limited.

[ISiddiqui]

I disagree completely. Party schill is tamer, to be sure. However, bully and bitch are two gender specific sides of the same coin. They're the same idea but apply to different genders. It's the same way people use the term asshole and bitch to describe the same people/actions, just with gender distinctions.

SI

Oh Hells Fucking No! Bitch is a FAR more of a strong word than bully. No one fucking cares about being called a bully. Being called a bitch is far, far worse. And women can easily be called a bully and have been. There is nothing gender specific about bully.

[ISiddiqui]

I've said, and continue to believe the good mother stuff is way out of bounds. However, that article, if it's going to mention something as tame as Biden's "good looking" has to mention Limbaugh's "babe" or someone at the National Review talking about her as a dirty librarian. I don't think Biden meant it as a sexist attack, but even if he did there's lots of company among Palin supporters.

Oh, I agree. I was absolutely disgusted at all the "Hottest VP" buttons. WTF?! Shows that we as a society are no where where we need to be on gender issues.

[Flasch186]

Dem talking heads are saying that the swipes at "community organizers" is going to be the next talking point for the Left and that they'll be able to boil it down to a street level about "you". I didnt think about it at the time but the speeches tonight were mocking of community events and involvement and now I think back to Obama's push for free education to those who spend time volunteering and can see that spin over the next week or so....i missed that though at the time.

[JPhillips]

The only big mistake in the speech was the bridge to nowhere line. That's been thoroughly debunked and McCain/Palin need to drop it or they'll look stupid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Being called a bitch is far, far worse.

Or better, depending upon your perspective. I've know quite a few women who, used in certain contexts, would have been very pleased with the description. Palin strikes me as one who would be pretty nonplussed by it when it comes from a strong performance.

[Galaxy]

Ok, just to point it out clearly since it may not be known since I don't post in this thread much....I am not voting Obama or McCain. I am independent, and will go third party since I don't like either side enough to vote for one of them.


1. Because the media digs something up that you want privacy about, you are going to turn a 180 and give them all they want? Including bringing the kid to the RNC? It doesn't show me they really want to keep it that private, and it does show me they are willing to use it to their advantage if they can. I am pretty sure the media didn't get him a flight out there. Though if they did I will stand corrected. And laugh because that would be funny.

2. Sorry that one rubs you wrong, but that is how I feel, and I would guess I am right about it. I can't see too much quality time set aside for baby while trying to campaign and be a governor at the same time. Of course the 'back to work three days after birth' kind of supports me on that one a little.

1. I can see your point. However, it needs to be the same rules for Obama. If his wife speaks for his campaign, she is fair game. If he puts his family on television (was it Entertainment Tonight?) and in one of the celebrity magazines, they become fair game. Obama can't complain and tell the media to leave his wife alone if she is going to get out front.

2. I just get the double standard feeling off that (if it were a man, it would be no problem) as well as the idea of a working mother. Just my gut feeling.

Off-topic, I really miss Tim Russert.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dem talking heads are saying that the swipes at "community organizers" is going to be the next talking point for the Left

If so, I'll go ahead & call that one a mistake beforehand. It isn't going to resonate outside urban areas, I'll bet my hat (and considering how rapidly my hair is vanishing lately, that's a pretty serious risk for me to take).

[SFL Cat]

There needs to be a corollary to Godwin's Law dealing with marxism.

You'd think a true social and economic liberal would be proud to wear marxism as a badge of honor. Power to the working class, baby!

[Flasch186]

If so, I'll go ahead & call that one a mistake beforehand. It isn't going to resonate outside urban areas, I'll bet my hat (and considering how rapidly my hair is vanishing lately, that's a pretty serious risk for me to take).

Well it may solidify that base, right? And I wonder if a majority of community organizers aren't women? I dont know but Im guessing there.

[sabotai]

As for the vote, what is with the "Others: 5"?

[ISiddiqui]

Well it may solidify that base, right? And I wonder if a majority of community organizers aren't women? I dont know but Im guessing there.

Solidify that base? I bet they are out of their boots for Obama already.

[SFL Cat]

You mean there is a real job title out there called "Community Organizer?"

[Galaxy]

+1

Imagine how his parents must be feeling...

I would hate to be in their shoes.

[ace1914]

I think Guliani(sp) was the most convincing speaker of the night. He has me questioning my Obama vote....well not really but it was very entertaining if you are pro-McCain or on the edge.

[Young Drachma]

As for the vote, what is with the "Others: 5"?

Ron Paul, I imagine. But the networks would rather not indicate that, lest it give him any attention.

[Cringer]

1. I can see your point. However, it needs to be the same rules for Obama. If his wife speaks for his campaign, she is fair game. If he puts his family on television (was it Entertainment Tonight?) and in one of the celebrity magazines, they become fair game. Obama can't complain and tell the media to leave his wife alone if she is going to get out front.

2. I just get the double standard feeling off that (if it were a man, it would be no problem) as well as the idea of a working mother. Just my gut feeling.

Off-topic, I really miss Tim Russert.

1. No problem from me there. Obama's wife is more fair game even to me, because she would be the first lady.

2. Perhaps there is. If you tell me the dad stays at home with the kid and is the primary care taker of that child though, I would not say a thing about her. If all that guy does is race a snowmobile every now and then perhaps that is true and good for them. I just get a vibe that isn't exactly how things are, and if there is no nanny then big sis/soon to be mom has already done a lot of child care in her days.

[Young Drachma]

Hit & Run: 2008 Convention > Palin: Long on 'tude, Short on Specifics - Reason Magazine (http://www.reason.com/convention2008/show/128583.html)

From Reason's Matt Welch

As an instance of political theater, I think just about anybody would agree that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's speech was pretty impressive. As Nina Easton of Fortune put it (somewhat regretfully) on Fox News Channel, "It was a home run in the first inning." It was a well-delivered, red-meat speech, chock full o' attacks on Barack Obama and Democrats in general.

For me, the lacuna at the heart of it all, a gigantic prolapsed valve big enough to punch your fist through, was the inability of the GOP to spell out exactly what John McCain's great legislative accomplishments were/are. Palin kept intoning that McCain was a great American, apart form the torture he endured during the Vietnam War. But she wouldn't quite spell out what his massive successes were. McCain-Feingold? Eh, not exactly. Earmark reform? Mebbe (except for the fact that Alaska pulls in much more dough than it sends to D.C.). He was against the Medicare prescription drug benefit—a totally awful and unnecessary expansion of the welfare state. But she didn't call that out (which makes sense, given that a Republican president pushed the bejeezus out of it all and it seemed like the average age in the RNC hall was about 70 years old).

I've got to admit that, as someone who doesn't care for Dem-Rep politics, I like Palin as a character. She's on a totally different script than any of us are used to; she's white trash in the same way Angelina Jolie is (and no wonder she scares the hell out of so many people). I want to think there's some latent libertarianism in her shtick, though I'm troubled by her bullshit backtracking on earmarks, the Bridge To Nowhere, you name it.

But in the end, the VP doesn't matter. Sen. Joe Biden is awful on virtually every level—he's a drug warrior to the max and a situational hawk and peacenik. It's the people at the top of the ticket who cause the most problems. And while I worry about Obama's willingness to raise taxes, increase regulations, and wage indiscriminate wars (that a Democratic Congress will support, as they did under Bill Clinton), I worry just as much about someone like John McCain, who for all the reasons Matt Welch details in his indispensable book details, who would be just as rotten.

[Young Drachma]

I just get a vibe that isn't exactly how things are, and if there is no nanny then big sis/soon to be mom has already done a lot of child care in her days.

Yup.

[sabotai]

Ron Paul, I imagine. But the networks would rather not indicate that, lest it give him any attention.

Of course...

[Jon]

If so, I'll go ahead & call that one a mistake beforehand. It isn't going to resonate outside urban areas, I'll bet my hat (and considering how rapidly my hair is vanishing lately, that's a pretty serious risk for me to take).

I have to say that I was shocked by the whole mocking of community organizers. Community organizations are the entities that provide the services the Republicans don't want government to provide. Most of these are affiliated with churches. That's why Obama and Bush aren't that too far off on faith-based grants.

I thought her speech was good to fire up the base--both the Republican and Democrats. Problem is that if it comes down to a battle of the bases, and Dems get their turnout, then they win. I don't think her speech did much to get independent voters.

I thought she had some good attack lines, and I'm an Obama supporter, but she kept going at it. I agree with other commentators that said she was getting very personal in her attacks. I don't think that's a way to gain new voters.

Also, I think people will see how disingenuous to while about people attacking you on legitimate things (but claiming it's one illegitimate thing) and then attacking back with ten times the force. I don't think that's going to work either.

[ISiddiqui]

And Harry Reid just referred to Palin's speech as "shrill"

REALLY?! Are you freaking kidding me, Reid?! Hillary Clinton is just waiting to take the Senate Majority Leader from your ass.

[ace1914]

I have to say that I was shocked by the whole mocking of community organizers. Community organizations are the entities that provide the services the Republicans don't want government to provide. Most of these are affiliated with churches. That's why Obama and Bush aren't that too far off on faith-based grants.

I thought her speech was good to fire up the base--both the Republican and Democrats. Problem is that if it comes down to a battle of the bases, and Dems get their turnout, then they win. I don't think her speech did much to get independent voters.

I thought she had some good attack lines, and I'm an Obama supporter, but she kept going at it. I agree with other commentators that said she was getting very personal in her attacks. I don't think that's a way to gain new voters.

She didn't write that part of the speech. Its nothing less than expected and probably not the true Sarah Palin according to her 80+% approval rating in Alaska. But hey, you do what you gotta do.

[SFL Cat]

I thought she had some good attack lines, and I'm an Obama supporter, but she kept going at it. I agree with other commentators that said she was getting very personal in her attacks. I don't think that's a way to gain new voters.

Guess we'll find out in November. I think she will have a big appeal in small towns across flyover country...and that's where Bush won the last election.

[Flasch186]

I have to say that I was shocked by the whole mocking of community organizers. Community organizations are the entities that provide the services the Republicans don't want government to provide. Most of these are affiliated with churches. That's why Obama and Bush aren't that too far off on faith-based grants.



yes, SFL, in some cities community organizer and community help organizations, including churches, are a large source of outreach. I dont know if it's the same in all cities over a certain pop. but in this one there are certain, Burroughs, lets call them, that have very important community organizers, who sometimes evolve into running for local office(s). Looking back at the laughter about the position and the mocking tone, I can imagine there were some households that were fired up for the wrong reasons, there. However, that is admittedly not who the speech was aimed at and therefore Im not sure that the reaction of that group is of much, iff any, concern.

[SFL Cat]

Didn't that used to be called community volunteer work? I didn't know it had evolved into a full-time position.

[Crapshoot]

You'd think a true social and economic liberal would be proud to wear marxism as a badge of honor. Power to the working class, baby!

I realize we're scraping the bottom of the barrel with you, but you do know what a classic economic liberal is, right?

[Flasch186]

who do you think organizes the places to go and things to do? Just handing the homeless guy on the corner a dollar isn't what we're talking about here. The organizations that get grants, how do you think they get those grants...the applications and phone calls dont happen on their own, donations dont come in on their own, etc. Its more than you can know, as are most jobs from the outside looking in....

[Jon]

Guess we'll find out in November. I think she will have a big appeal in small towns across flyover country...and that's where Bush won the last election.

That goes to my point about it being a turnout election. If John McCain's strategy is to win like Bush did in 2004, I think he loses. The electorate is not the same now as it was then with the high odds that certain groups who have low turnout rates will have higher turnouts.

[Galaxy]

Just curious, do you see those offended by the community organizers (I think they try to demonstrate what his experience was for the commander-in-chief job; however, they should have done better with that) or involved, McCain/Palin voters anyways?

[Vegas Vic]

I think Guliani(sp) was the most convincing speaker of the night. He has me questioning my Obama vote....well not really but it was very entertaining if you are pro-McCain or on the edge.

Giuliani did a masterful job of painting Obama’s ineptitude on the Russian invasion of Georgia, noting Obama’s initial moral equivalency between the two nations, then Obama issuing a statement that the U.N. Security Council would be the appropriate vehicle, then changing his mind again when he was informed that Russia has veto power, and finally changing his position three days later to agree with McCain’s initial position.

[Flasch186]

Just curious, do you see those offended by the community organizers (I think they try to demonstrate what his experience was for the commander-in-chief job; however, they should have done better with that) or involved, McCain/Palin voters anyways?

no, not really....BUT I wonder how many are women and they were courting the Hillary disenfranchised vote (for a while anyways).

[SFL Cat]

That goes to my point about it being a turnout election. If John McCain's strategy is to win like Bush did in 2004, I think he loses. The electorate is not the same now as it was then with the high odds that certain groups who have low turnout rates will have higher turnouts.


I still think the election is Obama's to lose, but I've got to hand it to whoever McCain's new handlers are...they've played things perfectly and given someone who I didn't think had a chance in hell to win, a 50-50 shot.

[Jon]

Didn't that used to be called community volunteer work? I didn't know it had evolved into a full-time position.

It depends on the community. Some places it is volunteer work. The work I do in my community, as a former community organizer, was volunteer in nature. Some organizers are full-time paid jobs (well "paid," they don't make much money). But they do provide valuable services to the community.

Like Flasch said, it's not simply handing a guy on the street corner a dollar. It's helping people find jobs, helping people get medical care, keeping kids in school, ensuring that proper legal services are provided to those that need it. It's organizing members of the community so that they can help themselves. And, most of the time, it's not a governmental agency.

Frankly, whether you agree with Obama or not, there was something noble in his initial decision to work as a community organizer. It's thankless work that is filled with limited success.

Now, maybe I'm taking it too personally, but the dissing of community organizing was offensive. An organizer does have responsibilities. He/she can't simply hire an administrator to do the work for you. An organizer can't fire people just because they disagree with you. An organizer can't work to ban books. And they do exist in towns large or small.

(

[Vegas Vic]

I still think the election is Obama's to lose, but I've got to hand it to whoever McCain's new handlers are...they've played things perfectly and given someone who I didn't think had a chance in hell to win, a 50-50 shot.

Obama is counting on first time voters to win this election, and to quote James Carville from a few years ago, "What do you call a candidate who is counting on first time voters? A loser."

[Grammaticus]

Where ever he goes and whoever is listening, john mccain is the same man...?

I guess I didn't get that.

He (McCain) expresses the same views wether he is in scranton or San Francisco..........Does that help?


In general, this one (Palin) is TROUBLE for the opposition. She was spot on all the way through with one little stutter when talking about energy in Alaska.

Somebody mentioned just speaking to the base. Definately did that, but also hit issues on all the important swing states where, if picked up could mean a victory.

For somebody that was in a lot of heat this past week, she really stepped up and delivered with poise under pressure, very good speaker.

[SFL Cat]

who do you think organizes the places to go and things to do? Just handing the homeless guy on the corner a dollar isn't what we're talking about here. The organizations that get grants, how do you think they get those grants...the applications and phone calls dont happen on their own, donations dont come in on their own, etc. Its more than you can know, as are most jobs from the outside looking in....


So you're saying as an organizer, Obama wrote grant proposals and made phone calls and collected donations, correct?

[SFL Cat]

It depends on the community. Some places it is volunteer work. The work I do in my community, as a former community organizer, was volunteer in nature. Some organizers are full-time paid jobs (well "paid," they don't make much money). But they do provide valuable services to the community.

Like Flasch said, it's not simply handing a guy on the street corner a dollar. It's helping people find jobs, helping people get medical care, keeping kids in school, ensuring that proper legal services are provided to those that need it. It's organizing members of the community so that they can help themselves. And, most of the time, it's not a governmental agency.

Frankly, whether you agree with Obama or not, there was something noble in his initial decision to work as a community organizer. It's thankless work that is filled with limited success.

Now, maybe I'm taking it too personally, but the dissing of community organizing was offensive. An organizer does have responsibilities. He/she can't simply hire an administrator to do the work for you. An organizer can't fire people just because they disagree with you. An organizer can't work to ban books. And they do exist in towns large or small.

(


I suppose I've known several "community organizers" then, but it was all volunteer work. Guess I've never lived in a place big enough where they needed someone doing it full-time and getting paid for it.

[ace1914]

It depends on the community. Some places it is volunteer work. The work I do in my community, as a former community organizer, was volunteer in nature. Some organizers are full-time paid jobs (well "paid," they don't make much money). But they do provide valuable services to the community.

Like Flasch said, it's not simply handing a guy on the street corner a dollar. It's helping people find jobs, helping people get medical care, keeping kids in school, ensuring that proper legal services are provided to those that need it. It's organizing members of the community so that they can help themselves. And, most of the time, it's not a governmental agency.

Frankly, whether you agree with Obama or not, there was something noble in his initial decision to work as a community organizer. It's thankless work that is filled with limited success.

Now, maybe I'm taking it too personally, but the dissing of community organizing was offensive. An organizer does have responsibilities. He/she can't simply hire an administrator to do the work for you. An organizer can't fire people just because they disagree with you. An organizer can't work to ban books. And they do exist in towns large or small.

(

You are fighting a losing battle man. The conventional thought is now tgat the all-mighty "experience" recently changed to "executive experience" is somehow a great gauge for performance in the white house.

[Jon]

He (McCain) expresses the same views wether he is in scranton or San Francisco..........Does that help?


In general, this one (Palin) is TROUBLE for the opposition. She was spot on all the way through with one little stutter when talking about energy in Alaska.

Somebody mentioned just speaking to the base. Definately did that, but also hit issues on all the important swing states where, if picked up could mean a victory.

For somebody that was in a lot of heat this past week, she really stepped up and delivered with poise under pressure, very good speaker.

I'm not entirely sure how much trouble she is for the opposition if the media continues its vetting. She lied about being against the "Bridge to Nowhere." She was for it before she was against it. In fact, she even kept the money after she was against it.

She also hired one of Jack Abramoff's lobbyists to make lobbying trips to DC for, you guessed it, earmarks. She herself made the trip. In fact, Alaska was listed frequently on the McCain Pork list.

Her current ethics troubles continue to be a political nuisance.

With her aggressive attacks, she basically opens the doors for the dems to take the gloves off.

And I'm still not sure she answered people's questions regarding her ability to be vice-president (or even if she knows what the job entails).

[Galaril]

Did I really see Romney railing against the Eastern elitists? Seriously?

How the fuck did people in Massachusetts elect this asshole in the first place?

[ace1914]

I suppose I've known several "community organizers" then, but it was all volunteer work. Guess I've never lived in a place big enough where they needed someone doing it full-time and getting paid for it.

American Red Cross.

[Galaril]

Who cares about budgets and deficits, they made Levi shave his head! Bristol and Levi do look like a happy couple and Cindy McCain looks good in puke green.

Yeah ole Levi looks really "happy" up there like any one involved in a shotgun (literally) wedding is. His little sexual escapades get him a 17 year old wife, new born baby and a job scraping crab guts off his future father-in-laws fishing boat in the middle of the Bering Strait for the next 50 years. Now, that is the type message that needs to be made into an ad to reduce unwanted teenage pregnancies

[SFL Cat]

American Red Cross.

good point. I guess I think of them as more of a national organization rather than a local one, even though they do a lot of local blood drives in my community.

I guess the United Way too. Even though there's been a lot of controversy about how its funds are distributed and how much some people on staff make.

[Jon]

American Red Cross.

Good example. Community organizers are everywhere, and not just in the urban communities. In many places they are the difference for some people between being on the street, having lights, having a job, being thrown out of school, etc.

(As you can see, I'm riled up. I'm usually a lurker, but this just got to me. I haven't been this angry at a convention speech since Pat Buchanan's address in 1992).

As for Rudy, I thought he kept Palin's speech from being more powerful, as they had to skip the video.

[Crapshoot]

How the fuck did people in Massachusetts elect this asshole in the first place?

He was a different guy in MA - the kind of guy who was my top choice for President - intelligent, wonky, pragmatic rather than idiotic. Than he decided to take to the extreme and run from the Right as some sort of new age messiah - and got his ass kicked. Now he comes across as an asshole.

PS, Any GOP'er who complains about liberals talking about "bitter" people should have some problems with bitching about "east coast liberals".

[Galaril]

I think it's pretty brilliant to tell you the truth, and I'd bet that Obama's camp offered it as a one-night-only opportunity to Fox News.

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin', you know that by now ;)

100% agree it is a good move and shows he is willing to talk to the other side unlike McCain who has canceled two scheduled interviews on CNN. And I think that maybe what Obama is aimimg to show the swing voters he is willing to talk even to on the conservative rights "Politburo" channel Fox.

[SFL Cat]

Yeah ole Levi looks really "happy" up there like any one involved in a shotgun (literally) wedding is. His little sexual escapades get him a 17 year old wife, new born baby and a job scraping crab guts off his future father-in-laws fishing boat in the middle of the Bering Strait for the next 50 years. Now, that is the type message that needs to be made into an ad to reduce unwanted teenage pregnancies

Sounds like a good abstinence commercial to me...unless you happen to be a fan of 'The Deadliest Catch.'

[ace1914]

good point. I guess I think of them as more of a national organization rather than a local one, even though they do a lot of local blood drives in my community.

I guess the United Way too. Even though there's been a lot of controversy about how its funds are distributed and how much some people on staff make.

I'm guessing that's sarcasm. I'm just pointing out that there are many organizations that are very helpful and their workers get paid, albeit less than they would likely get in the private sector.

It sucks when you are penalized for being too socially active and not focusing enough on yourself.

[SFL Cat]

Nope...big fan of the Red Cross

Used to be a volunteer and donor for the United Way too...but quit after some of organizations top officers' questionable practices came to light. dola edit - plus, I never felt entirely comfortable about how some local companies, who were always big donors, seemed to put a lot of pressure on their employees to donate.

[Galaril]

It's a very effective speech for the goal of playing to the right. The moderates might be a bit more put off, tho. She's gotten off some really nice zingers and played the "I'm a down home mom" thing well but sheneeds to lay off it soon or look like someone who just rolled off the PTA.

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

Yes, to me and my wife she came off as being very condescending, smug, and negative. Yes, a real bitch. I guess the Dems can lay into her as much as they want since she can take a punch and apparently throw one to.

[Grammaticus]

I'm not entirely sure how much trouble she is for the opposition if the media continues its vetting. She lied about being against the "Bridge to Nowhere." She was for it before she was against it. In fact, she even kept the money after she was against it.

She also hired one of Jack Abramoff's lobbyists to make lobbying trips to DC for, you guessed it, earmarks. She herself made the trip. In fact, Alaska was listed frequently on the McCain Pork list.

Her current ethics troubles continue to be a political nuisance.

With her aggressive attacks, she basically opens the doors for the dems to take the gloves off.

And I'm still not sure she answered people's questions regarding her ability to be vice-president (or even if she knows what the job entails).

I don't see the bridge to nowhere being an issue with anyone but staunch liberals. From what I have read, she supported the idea of a bridge to the remote islands as a potential infrastructure improvement. Once things got going, it didn't equate to a good idea. Hence the line "about that bridge to nowhere, thanks, but no thanks". About the keeping the money part, tell us more about that. Did she pocket some cash? Did money go into a general fund? Did something happen outside of the norm?



American Red Cross.

This is not a community organizer. This is a major national not for profit charity.

Community Organizers are different. If interested, just google and read up on it. There is a lot of good info out there. Sure it is a lot of volunteer based work and generally trying to organize commuinities like neighborhoods, etc. to solve common problems versus individuals trying to solve problems independently.

[ace1914]

Good example. Community organizers are everywhere, and not just in the urban communities. In many places they are the difference for some people between being on the street, having lights, having a job, being thrown out of school, etc.

(As you can see, I'm riled up. I'm usually a lurker, but this just got to me. I haven't been this angry at a convention speech since Pat Buchanan's address in 1992).

As for Rudy, I thought he kept Palin's speech from being more powerful, as they had to skip the video.

I understand. In college, I probably did more community service in 5 years than most people do in their entire lifetime. Considered joining the Peace Corps but then 9-11 hit and had me afraid to leave the US. I guess that's part of Obama's appeal for me. I connect with most of his .....young, smart kid, does some stupid stuff, goes to college, gets tough degree, sees people much worse off and wanted to help. He went one way, I sometimes wish I did(until I see that direct deposit 2 times/month).

[Grammaticus]

100% agree it is a good move and shows he is willing to talk to the other side unlike McCain who has canceled two scheduled interviews on CNN. And I think that maybe what Obama is aimimg to show the swing voters he is willing to talk even to on the conservative rights "Politburo" channel Fox.

I think it is great he is going to talk to Bill O'reilly. The timing is the only reason they are getting him anyway. Why complain abou it? It may be the last chance anyone gets to really press him with some decent / difficult questions.

[Galaril]

+1

That baby is a prop. Independent woman or not...all we have to go on is what we see and what we see, ain't good.

My wife agrees. She had commented that she felt that palin was selfish to have a baby at 44 thus raising the chance of complecations. And yes the baby is a total prop very sad actually.

[SFL Cat]

Holy sh*t! Not like there is anything judgmental here...

[ace1914]

I don't see the bridge to nowhere being an issue with anyone but staunch liberals. From what I have read, she supported the idea of a bridge to the remote islands as a potential infrastructure improvement. Once things got going, it didn't equate to a good idea. Hence the line "about that bridge to nowhere, thanks, but no thanks". About the keeping the money part, tell us more about that. Did she pocket some cash? Did money go into a general fund? Did something happen outside of the norm?





This is not a community organizer. This is a major national not for profit charity.

Community Organizers are different. If interested, just google and read up on it. There is a lot of good info out there. Sure it is a lot of volunteer based work and generally trying to organize commuinities like neighborhoods, etc. to solve common problems versus individuals trying to solve problems independently.

So eager to prove me wrong, I see.

The soul of organizing is people. An organizer might be paid or work as a volunteer. The group could start as part of a master plan hatched in a smoke filled room or out of a 'spontaneous' community reaction to a crisis like a toxic waste dump. They might base their work on house by house prayer groups or cells of clandestine conspirators. The ultimate goal could be the preservation of Hopi language and culture or the overthrow of the real estate tax based system for financing public education. Organizers can differ on strategy, tactics, even on what seem to be base values. However, all organizers believe in people, in the ability of regular folks to guide their lives, to speak for themselves, to learn the world and how to make it better.

I think Red Cross falls into that "Google" definition.

Have you ever worked for a LOCAL chapter of the Red Cross..or a LOCAL chapter of Habitat for Humanities? The national organization is made of local community organizers that get the job done, regardless of its national status. There is no difference.

By the way, I didn't HAVE to look anything up. I've lived that life.

[Galaril]

I usually make it a point not to vote for socialists with Marxist leanings...and usually those tend to graze on the Democrat side of the yard.

CAT man the correct term for us is Pinkos!

[SFL Cat]

T'anks. Noted. :D

[SFL Cat]

Looks like Biden is throwing some crumbs to the kook left.

Obama might pursue criminal charges against Bush (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.joebiden)

[ace1914]

Looks like Biden is throwing some crumbs to the kook left.

Obama might pursue criminal charges against Bush (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.joebiden)

That's a fruitless campaign.

[Grammaticus]

So eager to prove me wrong, I see.

The soul of organizing is people. An organizer might be paid or work as a volunteer. The group could start as part of a master plan hatched in a smoke filled room or out of a 'spontaneous' community reaction to a crisis like a toxic waste dump. They might base their work on house by house prayer groups or cells of clandestine conspirators. The ultimate goal could be the preservation of Hopi language and culture or the overthrow of the real estate tax based system for financing public education. Organizers can differ on strategy, tactics, even on what seem to be base values. However, all organizers believe in people, in the ability of regular folks to guide their lives, to speak for themselves, to learn the world and how to make it better.

Have you ever worked for a LOCAL chapter of the Red Cross..or a LOCAL chapter of Habitat for Humanities. The organization is made of local community organizers that get the job done, regardless of its national status. There is no difference.


Not trying to prove you wrong, it's just that an organization that is National is driving policy, etc. Of course National or local it can be charity, etc.

Maybe it would be more helpful to identify what Barrack Obama did specifically and what kind of commuinty group he worked with. He was not head of the United Way, Red Cross or Habitat. So putting that out there in the context of this thread is potentially misleading.

Actually in many cases community organizing is a way for people get some exposure and maybe move up to city government, etc. See if I phrase it that way, it makes it look like Palin's Mayor job is far superior to the entry level community organizer.

[Galaril]

Guess we'll find out in November. I think she will have a big appeal in small towns across flyover country...and that's where Bush won the last election.


I wasn't sure after the Republicans telling everyone that small town america makes up the vast majority of people but that isn't treu at all according to the 2000 census. Urban is over 75%:
U.S. Population Living in Urban vs. Rural Areas - Census 2000 Population Statistics - Census Issues - Planning - HEP - FHWA (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/census/cps2k.htm)

[Grammaticus]

I wasn't sure after the Republicans telling everyone that small town america makes up the vast majority of people but that isn't treu at all according to the 2000 census. Urban is over 75%:
U.S. Population Living in Urban vs. Rural Areas - Census 2000 Population Statistics - Census Issues - Planning - HEP - FHWA (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/census/cps2k.htm)

Problem with this is, they consider places like Knoxville, TN as urban. Its not.

[ace1914]

Not trying to prove you wrong, it's just that an organization that is National is driving policy, etc. Of course National or local it can be charity, etc.

Maybe it would be more helpful to identify what Barrack Obama did specifically and what kind of commuinty group he worked with. He was not head of the United Way, Red Cross or Habitat. So putting that out there in the context of this thread is potentially misleading.

Actually in many cases community organizing is a way for people get some exposure and maybe move up to city government, etc. See if I phrase it that way, it makes it look like Palin's Mayor job is far superior to the entry level community organizer.

Palin: PTA, to City Council, mayor, governor in Alaska.

Community organizer, to State Senate to US Senate in Chicago.

I'd argue the paths are very similar.

By the way here's the organization, you could've googled the info, the information's there.

Developing Communities Project (DCP) - Welcome (http://www.dcpincorp.org/index.html)

[Galaril]

Problem with this is, they consider places like Knoxville, TN as urban. Its not.

Yes, good point;)

[ace1914]

Problem with this is, they consider places like Knoxville, TN as urban. Its not.

Its a city with more than 500,000 people in the metro area. That's pretty darn urban by definition.

[Grammaticus]

Palin: PTA, to City Council, mayor, governor in Alaska.

Community organizer, to State Senate to US Senate in Chicago.

I'd argue the paths are very similar.

By the way here's the organization, you could've googled the info, the information's there.

Developing Communities Project (DCP) - Welcome (http://www.dcpincorp.org/index.html)

After reviewing the site, it looks like they have some noble projects. I also understand why they are not playing up any detail.

[Alan T]

How the fuck did people in Massachusetts elect this asshole in the first place?

No idea, I didn't vote for him, in my mind he was a Republican version of Al Gore.

[SirFozzie]

I didn't vote for him, because he came off as a snake-oil salesman.

[ISiddiqui]

About the keeping the money part, tell us more about that. Did she pocket some cash? Did money go into a general fund? Did something happen outside of the norm?

IIRC, it went into Alaska's general fund.

[ISiddiqui]

Its a city with more than 500,000 people in the metro area. That's pretty darn urban by definition.

Have you been to Knoxville?

Hell, most of the Atlanta metro area is something that stretches what I think of when I think of the word "urban". Then again, being from Jersey, I'm used to thinking of urban as NYC and Philly.

[ace1914]

Have you been to Knoxville?

Hell, most of the Atlanta metro area is something that stretches what I think of when I think of the word "urban". Then again, being from Jersey, I'm used to thinking of urban as NYC and Philly.

I think any city with more than 250,000 people in the city itself and more than 500,000 in its metro area should be considered urban. Once you get that many people in one small area, you are going to have "city" problems(traffic congestion, etc.). That's what makes it urban.

[Flasch186]

So you're saying as an organizer, Obama wrote grant proposals and made phone calls and collected donations, correct?

I have no idea, im saying that some community organizers do stuff like that. No clue what Obama did but I dont think the speeches last night demarked out whom from whom in regards to which community organizers they were mocking.

[Grammaticus]

IIRC, it went into Alaska's general fund.

I found an article on CNN that talked about it. When Congress stripped the earmark, all it did was remove the requirement the funds be spent on the bridge but Alaska still got the cash, something like 233 million. Kind of a screwed up process isn't it?

It looks like the congressmen in Alaska were pissed that she nixed the process, since they were "working" for it for so long. The CNN article indicated she nixed it mostly because it was 300 million short of funding, ultimately saying they needed to reach a more fiscally responsible solution.

I don't think this makes her look bad at all, in the end she killed the deal. But I probably would not have put it in the speech either. Selling the jet on e-bay was enough to make her point and a much clearer example.

[sterlingice]

Palin: PTA, to City Council, mayor, governor in Alaska.

Community organizer, to State Senate to US Senate in Chicago.

I'd argue the paths are very similar.

Yeah, except I'm going to go with State Senator of 5th largest state (12M) from 2nd largest Metro area >>>> Mayor of small town

SI

[Flasch186]

These next 2 days are going to be very intriguing in regards to political strategy (RNC Convention, Obama on Fox [which I still think is not very nice]) and I think the past 10 days will be looked at as the true lynchpin in regards to both campaigns going as negative as the campaigns past. It's a shame in my view and neither side will be more negative than the other but I think we'll see that going forward.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think it's pretty brilliant to tell you the truth, and I'd bet that Obama's camp offered it as a one-night-only opportunity to Fox News.

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin', you know that by now ;)

That has already been all but confirmed by O'Reilly himself. On yesterday's radio show, he said that he was pretty sure if he didn't take this opportunity, that he wouldn't get another chance. It's going to be far from a cakewalk for Obama, so I don't think it's all bad news for the Republicans.


Well now it seems a couple of the talking heads got caught on an open mike and were expressing their true (because the cameras were off) feelings on the Palin selection:

Noonan, Murphy trash Palin on hot mic: 'It's over' - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080903/pl_politico/20576)

Arles, Im not painting it one way or the other.

Certainly some interesting developments on this one. Evidently, someone in the backroom of MSNBC secretly leaked an edited version of this conversation that inaccurately portrayed the comments. This will likely only further fuel the fire over the blatent bias being displayed by the major networks in recent weeks.

Declarations - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122044753790594947.html?mod=todays_columnists)


Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

To be frank, this is a load of shit. The liberal side has floated this balloon and they'd be wise to stop quickly. There's a lot of working women who would create some heavy backlash over this kind of thinking by either party's supporters. Anyone bitching about Obama rarely seeing his children for the past 19 months? Perhaps Biden should take a job closer to home spending time with his real family rather than his Amtrak family? FWIW, I find both of the above comments about Obama and Biden to be without merit, much like the Palin family critiques are without merit. I'm a dad that takes care of their child the majority of the time while mom works. She appears to be doing just fine.

Overall, Palin was very impressive in her first outing. You may not like the message, but the delivery was spot-on and that kind of speech will put the Republican base into a tizzy. We'll see in the coming weeks what it does for the female and independent vote along with how she performs on the campaign trail. That speech and its delivery was better than Obama's and Biden's and I'm almost positive it will be better than McCain's speech. He doesn't have a chance to better that kind of a showing.

[Flasch186]

1. good for Fox. I think it too opportunistic for Obama and he shouldnt do it or have done it.

2. hmmm, ok. convenient that so far that's the edited moment of the year. I guess it's possible, anything is but liberal media bias I just dont buy...never will. Where the story or dirt is the vultures go (just like Fox putting on Obama).

3. We agree about Palin's speech although you'll be hardpressed to find anyone neutral to say it was "better" than Obama's but whatever, coulda been equal too but it's subjective anyways.

[miked]

Have you been to Knoxville?

Hell, most of the Atlanta metro area is something that stretches what I think of when I think of the word "urban". Then again, being from Jersey, I'm used to thinking of urban as NYC and Philly.

Wow, what are the odds. Two people from NJ living in Atlanta. Unheard of down here :lol:

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I guess it's possible, anything is but liberal media bias I just dont buy...never will.

So is FoxNews a bias network?

[flere-imsaho]

In light of Giuliani's speech from last night, let's revisit Giuliani from a year ago (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/11/05/giuliani/):

In the course of answering, Giuliani distinguished his views from those of Sen. John McCain on the ground that McCain "has never run a city, never run a state, never run a government. He has never been responsible as a mayor for the safety and security of millions of people, and he has never run a law enforcement agency, which I have done."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

That depends on how they report on Palin's pastor issue. ;)

Of course, of course. :D

[Flasch186]

So is FoxNews a bias network?

Yes. There are biased networks, radio stations and papers and internet sites but I believe that the both sides quantity balances out. So to say,

"Liberal media bias" is to insinuate that the scales are tipped one way or the other and I just dont believe that. I believe there are neutral places, lefty places, righty places and places tot he extremes...

now just to update the things that tick me off portion of this thread:

Palin said she knew nothing of the pressure to fire the trooper in troopergate but now there are emails from her personal account in such regard. I definitely want this to run its course and the truth to come out but it ticks me off when someone lies, either side.

I do not think Obama should go on the air, except in ads, during the RNC. The RNC didnt do it and he should not do it.

A pastor issue on either side is exactly the same and to be ignored in my view until it cant be anymore. Now if someone says something themselves that's different (Im not really happy about mixing religion and politics so I dont like the 'Iraq mission from god' stuff but Palin's not the only person to say or believe that and if you believe it I'd rather you say it than hide it....that general did).

Im sure there are a lot more but those are just riling me up this morning :)

[Kodos]

So is FoxNews a bias network?

Folks, the word to use in a sentence like this is "biased", not "bias". For whatever reason, most people don't seem to realize that there should be an 'ed' on the end.

Edit: See? Flasch gets it right!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yes. There are biased networks, radio stations and papers and internet sites but I believe that the both sides quantity balances out. So to say,

"Liberal media bias" is to insinuate that the scales are tipped one way or the other and I just dont believe that. I believe there are neutral places, lefty places, righty places and places tot he extremes...

I never insinuated anything. All I said was that the major networks contain a heavy dose of liberal bias. I don't think there's any question that is the case and apparantly you agree. I think FoxNews is just as biased, but it should be noted that they are the only big news network that leans right. CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and their related cable affiliates are all leaning left, whether they admit it or not.

Edit: Corrected for Kodos.

[VPI97]

I read a nice little article in my Virginia Tech magazine this summer regarding different perceptions of media bias in this, and in past, elections. I thought it did a good job in explaining how viewpoints on the existence of media bias can be so widely varied among viewers.

Virginia Tech Magazine - Through the Looking Glass (http://www.vtmagazine.vt.edu/sum08/feature5.html)

[JAG]

it ticks me off when someone lies, either side.

In that case, for the sake of your blood pressure, you may want to stop paying attention to election coverage.

[Flasch186]

no shit and I agree with Ronnie Dobbs that way way way at the top of the priority list is ratings bias and, mix that with the though, "if it bleeds it leads" and you get the inklings of where their "liberal media bias" thoughts come from, on the right. The rights been charge for a long time and the media has been looking for juicy stuff to write so theyve been a 'challenge' to the authoritah. It wont matter, it's a pillar of the right wing platform to argue liberal media bias so there will be no change there as a david v. goliath story is good to rile up the masses.

[BrianD]

I think it's obvious that the media has a large ratings bias.

One problem I have with the thought of a widespread liberal media bias is the whole run-up to the Iraq War. I'm not sure many liberals were happy with the job the media was doing then.

Media bias is a tough thing to gauge as it mixes with our own internal bias. I often get the feeling that stories I see and read give the "democrats good, republicans bad" feeling, but I also know that reading something I agree with won't have as much of an impact as reading something I disagree with.

[chesapeake]

Palin needed to convince voters that she was more than a pretty face and she did that well. It was a well-written speech, well-delivered -- right down to the staged "lipstick" line. I thought it was ad-libbed, too, but apparently it was not.

It was not without mistakes, however. The "Bridge to Nowhere" stuff was a bald-faced lie. She supported the earmark and pushed Congress not to rescind it. Congress, however, did, and designated that it be spent on other Alaska projects. Only after that was done and the issue was dead did she state mild opposition to the bridge.

Some folks have said that going after her family is fair game because they came down to the stage. Not yet; every nominee brings the whole clan to the stage to wave. If Bristol campaigns for her or starts appearing a lot, then I suppose it would be fair to question that. Or if Palin continues to focus her rhetoric on how great her family and its values are, then the other side probably has to ask questions.

[Flasch186]

Palin needed to convince voters that she was more than a pretty face and she did that well. It was a well-written speech, well-delivered -- right down to the staged "lipstick" line. I thought it was ad-libbed, too, but apparently it was not.

Link?

the only reason why I think we crossed the "alot" line a while ago with Bristol's appearances was the initial statement from the family that it was a private matter and the 'kids' should be left alone...

1. then they fly out the boyfriend
2. then they announce theyre going to get married soon
3. then he's called a fiancee
4. then they have her wearing the tightest maternity dress (my wife) had seen

I dont know, if it's private than they should treat it as if they want it to be private but I feel, just my opinion, that all of a sudden flying Levi out, calling him a fiancee, and trotting him out told me how they truly felt.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So it appears we have Biden's first gaffe as mentioned earlier in the thread. These comments were in relation to pursuing criminal charges against Bush once the Obama ticket is elected...........

"If there has been a basis upon which you can pursue someone for a criminal violation, they will be pursued," Biden said during a campaign event in Deerfield Beach, Florida, according to ABC.

"[N]ot out of vengeance, not out of retribution," he added, "out of the need to preserve the notion that no one, no attorney general, no president -- no one is above the law."

He has every right to say this, but why would you do this? The platform of change and unity from the Dem ticket goes right down the drain after a comment like this. If they want to do it, fine, but don't pretend that it's not a revenge/partisan situation. It's just as partisan as the Republican congressional attempt to oust Clinton from office.

Also, I hadn't seen the P-Diddy critique of Sarah Palin's selection mentioned in this thread. And I quote.............

John McCain Is Buggin’ The F%^k Out!

“Alaska, motherf**ker? What is the reality in Alaska? There’s not even no crack heads in Alaska. There’s not even no black people. There’s not even no like… crime? Like foreign policies. Y’all may be versed on foreign policies. Y’all need to get versed on black policies and yoof policies. We the future.”

1. When did it become a bad thing that there were no crackheads in a city or state?

2. The total percentage of the Alaskan population that is black is 4.7%. The total percentage of the population that is black of P-Diddy's current hometown (Alpine, New Jersey) is 1.5%. I think Mr. Diddy's stats about black people and where they live may be just a bit off.

Yet another situation where a celebrity would do more for the Democratic ticket by just shutting up instead of opening their mouth.

[DaddyTorgo]

why is that a gaffe for Biden MBBF?? Not sure I follow.

[Butter_of_69]

Also, I hadn't seen the P-Diddy critique of Sarah Palin's selection mentioned in this thread. And I quote.............

1. When did it become a bad thing that there were no crackheads in a city or state?

2. The total percentage of the Alaskan population that is black is 4.7%. The total percentage of the population that is black of P-Diddy's current hometown (Alpine, New Jersey) is 1.5%. I think Mr. Diddy's stats about black people and where they live may be just a bit off.

Yet another situation where a celebrity would do more for the Democratic ticket by just shutting up instead of opening their mouth.

You're right! That's why they call Alaska "America's mirror".

:rolleyes:

[gottimd]

It was not without mistakes, however. The "Bridge to Nowhere" stuff was a bald-faced lie. She supported the earmark and pushed Congress not to rescind it. Congress, however, did, and designated that it be spent on other Alaska projects. Only after that was done and the issue was dead did she state mild opposition to the bridge.

Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

why is that a gaffe for Biden MBBF?? Not sure I follow.

You think it was a good idea to put that out there? I'm sure the liberal base will eat it up, but it certainly doesn't appear to jive with the unity platform that this ticket is pursuing at this point. On one hand, they preach unity while on the other hand, he all but guarantees that our leaders will spend a bunch of money on hearings and sessions that do nothing but keep our goverment from actually passing legislation. I didn't like it during the Clinton impeachment fiasco and I don't like it here.

[JPhillips]

I found an article on CNN that talked about it. When Congress stripped the earmark, all it did was remove the requirement the funds be spent on the bridge but Alaska still got the cash, something like 233 million. Kind of a screwed up process isn't it?

It looks like the congressmen in Alaska were pissed that she nixed the process, since they were "working" for it for so long. The CNN article indicated she nixed it mostly because it was 300 million short of funding, ultimately saying they needed to reach a more fiscally responsible solution.

I don't think this makes her look bad at all, in the end she killed the deal. But I probably would not have put it in the speech either. Selling the jet on e-bay was enough to make her point and a much clearer example.

Earmark reform is just a lot of empty BS IMO. Getting rid of earmarks doesn't lower the overall expenditures, it just shifts the decision making from the legislative to the executive branch.

[DaddyTorgo]

You think it was a good idea to put that out there? I'm sure the liberal base will eat it up, but it certainly doesn't appear to jive with the unity platform that this ticket is pursuing at this point. On one hand, they preach unity while on the other hand, he all but guarantees that our leaders will spend a bunch of money on hearings and sessions that do nothing but keep our goverment from actually passing legislation. I didn't like it during the Clinton impeachment fiasco and I don't like it here.

idk - i don't necessarily follow it that far down the path. not sure he was committing to that

[flere-imsaho]

The Daily Show last night was on top form. First they juxtaposed GOP talking heads from a year ago (attacking Hillary Clinton on being a woman) and defending Palin during the last week (from attacks on her because she's a woman). A typical example was people a year ago saying Clinton was "whining" when she complained about the "boys" ganging up on her in the Democratic debates, and then the same people saying how disgraceful it was that anyone was attacking Palin now, and that they were doing so just because she was a woman.

Also good was comparing Bill O'Reilly's response to Jamie Spears' pregnancy to Bristol Palin's. Pretty much a word-for-word contradiction of himself. I'm sure he's not the only talking head to be doing a 180 this week.

[JPhillips]

You think it was a good idea to put that out there? I'm sure the liberal base will eat it up, but it certainly doesn't appear to jive with the unity platform that this ticket is pursuing at this point. On one hand, they preach unity while on the other hand, he all but guarantees that our leaders will spend a bunch of money on hearings and sessions that do nothing but keep our goverment from actually passing legislation. I didn't like it during the Clinton impeachment fiasco and I don't like it here.

That seems way beyond what he said. Is it really the Republican platform that if you're high enough ranking you shouldn't be held accountable to the law?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

That seems way beyond what he said. Is it really the Republican platform that if you're high enough ranking you shouldn't be held accountable to the law?

If you think that any conviction will come of that, I've got some ice cubes in Arizona to sell you. It's a waste of time and little more than political grandstanding, much like the Clinton impeachment hearings. Putting up the straw man argument that I somehow implied that anyone is above the law is an excellent diversion, but doesn't address the topic at hand.

For those that want to read the full article.........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.joebiden

[chesapeake]

Link?

the only reason why I think we crossed the "alot" line a while ago with Bristol's appearances was the initial statement from the family that it was a private matter and the 'kids' should be left alone...

1. then they fly out the boyfriend
2. then they announce theyre going to get married soon
3. then he's called a fiancee
4. then they have her wearing the tightest maternity dress (my wife) had seen

I dont know, if it's private than they should treat it as if they want it to be private but I feel, just my opinion, that all of a sudden flying Levi out, calling him a fiancee, and trotting him out told me how they truly felt.

One of the talking heads last night said two things related to this: 1) male delegates were asked to give up their seats to female alternates to make it appear that there were more women there; 2) The hockey-mom, lipstick line was good but planned. I don't remember which one it was, and flipped between MSNBC, CNN and PBS pretty liberally (being a good liberal, and all). I'm pretty sure it wasn't PBS. So I apologize for not being able to specifically reference my source.

In fairness, if they could have kept Bristol's pregnancy hidden, I have no doubt they would have. But once it became public, they had to treat it as if it were all on the level. Every member of Biden's family was on the stage. Ditto Obama, such as it is. Bristol belonged on the stage with her mother. In my judgment, any fiance does, too, regardless of the presence of a shotgun. Either or both not appearing on the stage implies they are trying to sweep it all under the rug. An even worse story, in my opinion.

[JPhillips]

If you think that any conviction will come of that, I've got some ice cubes in Arizona to sell you. It's a waste of time and little more than political grandstanding, much like the Clinton impeachment hearings. Putting up the straw man argument that I somehow implied that anyone is above the law is an excellent diversion, but doesn't address the topic at hand.

For those that want to read the full article.........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.joebiden

Obama says this:

"[I]f crimes have been committed, they should be investigated," Obama told the Philadelphia Daily News. "You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt, because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve."

All they said was that if evidence of crimes being committed was discovered those responsible will be held accountable. They didn't call for hearings or investigations or a special prosecutor. Do you agree that if evidence of crimes is discovered that those responsible should be held accountable?

[Flasch186]

well I guess they couldve dropped the whole "private" charade and my brain would be able to put an equals sign after it...thats where Im having the discombobulation. You can't rewind the clock though so perhaps a pass is in order as youre right, all other families have been on stage too.

[BrianD]

A typical example was people a year ago saying Clinton was "whining" when she complained about the "boys" ganging up on her in the Democratic debates, and then the same people saying how disgraceful it was that anyone was attacking Palin now, and that they were doing so just because she was a woman.

Is this a fair comparison? I've been hearing a number of attacks on Palin that are only made because she is a woman...things like she can't take care of her kids if she is a VP, and she shouldn't be running with young children, and the mocking comment that "religious women should expect to be subservient to their husbands". All the while, Palin hasn't yet played the victim card (she doesn't have to with everyone else throwing it around for her). I don't remember Clinton's criticisms that caused her to claim victim. Were they equally as gender-focused?