George R. R. Martin

[Bonegavel]

I had a Barnes and Noble gift card burning a hole in my pocket and I was looking for a new author (for me at least) and I decided to give A Song of Ice and Fire a shot.

So far A Game of Thrones seems like typical fantasy fare. Not looking for spoilers but thoughts on this series?

I enjoy authors such as Jordan, Tolkien, Wolfe, and Donaldson.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Best. Fantasy. Series. Ever.

Keep reading. It's quite a bit different than your "typical fantasy fare." The characters are richer, the world is much grittier and brutal, and the plots and intrigue are pretty complex. A lot of it feels more like historical fiction than fantasy in that respect.

It's also an incredibly rich world. It feels like living, breathing place. The history is very deep and interesting and some of historical characters, who are long dead when the series begins, are as cool as as the actual characters. Having read each of the four books of the series at least twice (and the first three thrice), I am constantly picking up on things I missed the first and second time through.

A pure joy to read. I really can't get enough of the world.

[BrianD]

The series is really not like typical fantasy fare. It really reads more like a history book than it does a fantasy book...and I think that is an important distinction. It reads like history inasmuch as there are no "main character", or "main storyline". There are major and minor plot lines, but there isn't a good description for what the story is other than a history of that world over a period of time.

Some people really love the series while others can't get into it because there isn't anything really to get into. If you like reading about history, you will probably love these books as there is plenty of depth and flavor. If you are looking for a story, you may be disappointed.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The series is really not like typical fantasy fare. It really reads more like a history book than it does a fantasy book...and I think that is an important distinction. It reads like history inasmuch as there are no "main character", or "main storyline". There are major and minor plot lines, but there isn't a good description for what the story is other than a history of that world over a period of time.

Some people really love the series while others can't get into it because there isn't anything really to get into. If you like reading about history, you will probably love these books as there is plenty of depth and flavor. If you are looking for a story, you may be disappointed.

That's an interesting take on the series. I don't necessarily agree with it.

You're right that there isn't one "main character", which I think is a very good thing. (There is one, perhaps two, character(s) who come across as the most typical "main character" for fantasy series.)

I am going to avoid spoilers, but I could easily describe the "main storyline" for at least the first three books in one sentence.

As for there not being "anything really to get into", I have no idea what that means. There are hundreds of different things to get into. The various characters and plots are so meaty, that you can really sink your teeth into any of them. Even somewhat minor characters have very rich, meaty backgrounds worthy of "getting into". If anything there may be simply "too much to get into."

One advantage to having so many rich characters and various plotlines running, most in conjunction with the over-arching plot, is that if you're not too interested in character a and plotline b, the next chapter is likely to involve a whole new set of characters and plotline c.

The fact that each chapter is written from a certain character's perspective is also great. Martin really does a fantastic job of getting into the skin of his different characters. The perception of the world and another characters differs vastly from perspective to perspective.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Here are a bunch of non-spoilerish thoughts from other FOFCers from the original, spoiler-filled, ASOIAF thread:


If you like fantasy-type sci-fi and you haven't read these yet, you are doing yourself a serious disservice. These are four of the best books I've read in a long time.

I have to agree, of all the series I've read (and in 35 years thats been a LOT of series) this has to be the most engrossing. I love the style of each chapter being from another characters point of view. Seeing how everyone is thinking in depth, they're hopes their fears, its just awesome. I think my favorite trait overall is the very real feel he gives to the world. as you read you can really feel like you know and understand the world around them, which, when he throws in some of the magi really affect you as the reader all the more.

Cannot wait to have the next one!!

Have them all and love them as well.

I LOVE these books. They are the only ones that have kept me up late at night to find out what happens in the past 10 years. I read them all in about a month (as compared to the six months it took me to get through Cryptonomicon).

I have to chime in here...I love this series! I have read them over and over again...just a great writer.

I love the books. I´ve convince 6 people to read the books and all same the things.

I think this books are spreading in a mouth to ear basis, but they are greats.

This is a great series, and I can't wait to read the next offering.

I was a huge Jordan fan as well. I've favorably compared the first six books of the Wheel of Time to Tolkein's work. The problem is that since then Tolkein's work has far surpassed the overall quality of Jordan's series. The last book, I think the 10th has so far managed to quash every attempt I've made to read it.

I'm about half-way through the third book now and it's simply _the_ best fantasy I've ever read.. not that it's a huge accomplishment (I'm not really a fantasy buff). But not only is it excellent fantasy, it's awesomely written as a whole. He's simply a brilliant author. He's got that extra touch that so many "popular" authors lack.. his books are exciting while reading, and they're not just 500 pages of transport until they finally "break out".

His foreshadowing, his attention to detail, the way he drops little hints but doesn't really open those issues up just yet is fantastic.. some authors who have great ideas sort of hint a little but then don't have the patience to wait and stretch the reader's imagination, and instead tosses out what could have been an awesome surprise a little later..

From the beginning I was considering waiting for the paperback of A Feast for Crows, but now I simply can't wait. October 17th is the European release date for the hardback and I'm buying... can't wait until next spring for the paperback.

Juuust finished "A Game of Thrones" (actually finished it today). Wow... I think I'm going to get the next couple books in the series. I had some other books I wanted to read, but I think I'll put them on the backburner. I loved it!

If you haven't read ASOS, then you are in for a treat. Best fantasy novel I've ever read.

I'm re-reading the series right now. The re-reading confirms to me that the second and third books are the best written fantasy books ever. Even though this is my third reading, I'm still having a hard time putting the books down.

I'll echo all the plaudits for the series and say that it hasn't mattered, in my experience, whether people are fans of fantasy or not. I've lent my copies out to almost a dozen people, some huge fantasy fans and some who'd never read a book in the genre, and they unanimously love it. Martin's strength is in his characters and dialogue, as well as the fact that there are no "rules" regarding the nominal good guys being untouchable. A Storm of Swords (the 3rd book in the series) is not only the greatest fantasy novel ever (IMO), but also one of the best books I've ever read in any genre.

Just wanted to say............I like fantasy, and decided to read this series. I'm halfway through the first book, and it's very, very good.

I'd dare say that at half way through the first book, that you really have only the faintest hint of how good it is. Hold on to your hat. You are in for a wild ride. Enjoy.

[terpkristin]

I'm sad H_B didn't quote anything I said, though I'm not sure I've said anything particularly memorable about the ASOIAF series.

That said, it's one of my favorite series. Though others have (rightly) said that there is no real one "main character," it definitely seems to me like the series is really trying to follow 2 characters in particular, and the rest of the POV's really support what's going on with those 2.

I agree with whomever said it was sort of like reading something historical, which I suppose might be a turn-off for some people, but for me, it really reminds me of a British History class I took in college. Basically, the prof would walk in and start talking, and basically it felt like he was telling a story the entire time, so even though we were picking up dates, facts, figures, and historical information we'd have to process, it didn't FEEL like it, it felt like I was being read a story. This is probably why I enjoy listening to these books on audio (though I haven't listened to the 4th one yet, I heard the nararrator is different and seems to be love/hate).

I definitely enjoy this series more than I do WoT, though I think WoT is skewed a good bit by what's happened as the series has progressed, and it seems to have drifted quite a bit "off-topic" as it were. The first couple of books in that series, taken alone, are still a little below ASOIAF, but as a whole, the series is quite a few steps below...

ASOIAF is probably in the top 3 series for me, the others are the Harry Potter series (though I must confess I didn't like Deathly Hallows as much as I'd hoped I would) and Cryptonomicon and The Baroque Cycle trilogy from Stephenson.

/tk

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm sad H_B didn't quote anything I said, though I'm not sure I've said anything particularly memorable about the ASOIAF series.
/tk

It wasn't for lack of effort, tk!

I know you're one of the biggest fans around here, I just didn't come across a nice, quotable "sound bite" for you.

[Vince]

I have to say that this series is one of the things that I have most enjoyed that I got from this board. I had never even heard of it, but after the rave reviews I read here, I went out and picked it up. It truly is phenomenal storytelling. As H_B said, the grittiness, and "realism" of the world really sets it apart. You feel as if these things could really happen, and aren't the work of some writer catering to the masses who is afraid to displease some of his readers because of how he writes the story.

[ISiddiqui]

Wooohoo, I got quoted! ;)

And it wasn't one of the "Get the next fucking book out Martin, you big fat weasal!!!1!", so that's good :D.

[Calis]

I like the books a little less as time goes by and multiple readings have put a bit of a damper on them for me, but still I think it's a great series and one of my favorites.

There are some storylines I really feel like I'm slogging through and sometimes I think I'm watching reading a book published by the Food Network, but everything is worth it for the Tyrion chapters alone. Great character.

[BrianD]

That's an interesting take on the series. I don't necessarily agree with it.

You're right that there isn't one "main character", which I think is a very good thing. (There is one, perhaps two, character(s) who come across as the most typical "main character" for fantasy series.)

Whether the style of the series is good or bad depends on the reader. I like to make sure people understand what they are getting into so they can make an informed decision. This series is different than most so I like to throw out the warning. As far as main characters go, I'm guessing one of your choices is a character that didn't appear in book 4. I don't have a guess on who your other main character would be.

I am going to avoid spoilers, but I could easily describe the "main storyline" for at least the first three books in one sentence.

I'd love for you to throw me a PM on that one. I keep hoping that by the time the series is done I'll understand what the point was, but after 4 books I am no longer certain that I ever will.

As for there not being "anything really to get into", I have no idea what that means. There are hundreds of different things to get into. The various characters and plots are so meaty, that you can really sink your teeth into any of them. Even somewhat minor characters have very rich, meaty backgrounds worthy of "getting into". If anything there may be simply "too much to get into."

I'm talking here in terms of an overall story. Aside from wondering what is going to happen with various characters, there isn't really a feeling of waiting for something specific to happen. The story isn't really building to anything, events are just unfolding around us. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but people should know what to expect.

One advantage to having so many rich characters and various plotlines running, most in conjunction with the over-arching plot, is that if you're not too interested in character a and plotline b, the next chapter is likely to involve a whole new set of characters and plotline c.

The fact that each chapter is written from a certain character's perspective is also great. Martin really does a fantastic job of getting into the skin of his different characters. The perception of the world and another characters differs vastly from perspective to perspective.

The world and the characters are very deep and well written. Martin is willing to do things in his story that nobody else is willing to do (those who have read the books will know what I mean). I'm still not sure that there is an over-arching plot. I think I know with which plot-line the story will end, but I'm not sure that even that will qualify as an over-arching plot since most of the story is told in side-plots.

[GrantDawg]

I'm rereading this series for the fourth time right now. It kills me that, even though I know what is going to happen, I still hold out hope that certain characters would change their minds and not fall into what I know they are going to fall into. The series is just so enjoyable, and the characters so rich, that it has just about killed all other fantasy series for me.

As for Brian, yeah, I can't see how your are missing the major underlining story. Exactly how and when is still in doubt (which I'm sure Martin is going to twist very well. He is one of the most unpredictable writers I've ever read), but there is an overarching story that, if not clear, is at least semi-transparent.

[ISiddiqui]

but there is an overarching story that, if not clear, is at least semi-transparent.

Yep, there definately is the outlines of an overarching story hovering in the semi-background (well, with AFFC, it was relegated mostly to the background ;)).

[cougarfreak]

I can tell you this. I've had a hard time getting into any fantasy I've read since. Nothing I've found compares to it.

[BrianD]

As for Brian, yeah, I can't see how your are missing the major underlining story. Exactly how and when is still in doubt (which I'm sure Martin is going to twist very well. He is one of the most unpredictable writers I've ever read), but there is an overarching story that, if not clear, is at least semi-transparent.

That would be the story that is taking place on a completely different continent and which has had maybe less than 10% of the pages devoted to it? The story is still being told via the side-plots. Characters involved in those side-plots may be involved with characters in other side-plots which are involved with characters which might eventually have some purpose in the main-plot, but like usual, Martin is going to spend 90% of the time telling us about story X and right at the end we will find out that he was really telling us about story Y.

I'm still hoping that by the time it is all over, all of the plot-threads will be shown to create some elaborate tapestry of a story, but I'm worried that we are going to end up with a pot-holder and some unrelated mittens.

[WSUCougar]

Best. Fantasy. Series. Ever.

Keep reading. It's quite a bit different than your "typical fantasy fare." The characters are richer, the world is much grittier and brutal, and the plots and intrigue are pretty complex. A lot of it feels more like historical fiction than fantasy in that respect.

It's also an incredibly rich world. It feels like living, breathing place. The history is very deep and interesting and some of historical characters, who are long dead when the series begins, are as cool as as the actual characters. Having read each of the four books of the series at least twice (and the first three thrice), I am constantly picking up on things I missed the first and second time through.

A pure joy to read. I really can't get enough of the world.
This sums it up for me.

[ISiddiqui]

That would be the story that is taking place on a completely different continent and which has had maybe less than 10% of the pages devoted to it? The story is still being told via the side-plots. Characters involved in those side-plots may be involved with characters in other side-plots which are involved with characters which might eventually have some purpose in the main-plot, but like usual, Martin is going to spend 90% of the time telling us about story X and right at the end we will find out that he was really telling us about story Y.

I'm still hoping that by the time it is all over, all of the plot-threads will be shown to create some elaborate tapestry of a story, but I'm worried that we are going to end up with a pot-holder and some unrelated mittens.

You are also forgetting about the story on the same continent, just north (which I see linking in). And yes, it is in the background, but it is there.

[BrianD]

You are also forgetting about the story on the same continent, just north (which I see linking in). And yes, it is in the background, but it is there.

It seems to me that after 4 books, we shouldn't have to be piecing the side-plots together and figuring out which of the background elements link in to the probable main story. This wouldn't be as much of an issue for me if there weren't so many story lines with the only apparent purpose of introducing us to a character who is so screwed up that we will understand why they have caused somebody else to be so screwed up to that we will ultimately understand their screwed up motivations.

[ISiddiqui]

we shouldn't have to be piecing the side-plots together and figuring out which of the background elements link in to the probable main story.

I dunno... that's one of my favorite parts of the series. The looming darkness in the background while a lot of the main players are oblivious to it and are fighting amongst themselves.

[BrianD]

I dunno... that's one of my favorite parts of the series. The looming darkness in the background while a lot of the main players are oblivious to it and are fighting amongst themselves.

That may be a big difference between people that love the series, and people who don't. All of the background fighting is ultimately going to be just filler to the main story. All of that action is also ultimately going to be meaningless in the grand scheme of the world. While this provides great flavor and depth, I am also aware that it is generally a distraction as the implications of the actions are very short-term.

The other part that I have trouble with is the constant themes of murder, rape, incest, and betrayal. With no hint of an idea that life doesn't completely suck, the series is a constant exhausting assault. Hopefully there will be a big payoff in the end.

[ISiddiqui]

The other part that I have trouble with is the constant themes of murder, rape, incest, and betrayal. With no hint of an idea that life doesn't completely suck, the series is a constant exhausting assault.

That's also why I like the series :D. It shows life as hard as it was in medieval times.

[BrianD]

That's also why I like the series :D. It shows life as hard as it was in medieval times.

That makes you a perfect audience for the books. I just want people to know what they are getting into with the series. If I had known more before I started, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved in the series. I would say that I have survived the books rather than enjoyed them. Unfortunately I can't not see something I have started through to the end.

[ISiddiqui]

Actually I probably have to say that the murder, rape, incest, betrayal is MOSTLY the reason I love this series (well, along with the twists that show Martin is willing to do just about anything). It doesn't try to sugarcoat things. It shows life as hard and brutal.

But yes, people should know that before they get into it.

[Galaril]

This sums it up for me.

Me three;)

I only hope the guy lives to complete it. I assume at the pace he is going with two more books promised to complete the series and at the pace he is going at we are looking at around 2015-16 range for the final novel. And that is not to say he doesn't extened the series. But knock on wood, I would really be pissed if George went and died on the way to finishing the series ala is friend and idol Jordan. As long as these get completed they will be our generations Lord of the Rings or Narnia books to grow old with.

[Marc Vaughan]

The other part that I have trouble with is the constant themes of murder, rape, incest, and betrayal. With no hint of an idea that life doesn't completely suck, the series is a constant exhausting assault. Hopefully there will be a big payoff in the end.

Add me into the group which like the series because it shows a gritty world with consequences.

(although I have to admit for some reason his writing style doesn't engage me as much as his ideas do ..)

[timmynausea]

Count me among the huge fans of the series, and I'm becoming a big fan of GRRM's other work as well.

I just finished a book of his short stories, which I was pretty impressed with, and I've now started on the audio of Dreamsongs, which is a massive collection of his short stories and essays by him about the different stages of his career. So far it is awesome as well.

I definitely don't think ASOIAF reads like a history book whatsoever. It's not like this is the only fiction ever that follows different characters along the way and doesn't immediately have a clear main character. I mean, the Stand was a huge book that did that, and Lost basically does that as well.

[Neuqua]

I haven't started on this series yet because I don't think I can sit around and wait for the sequels to come out if I ever made it through. I get too impatient. It's why I read all the Harry Potters after #7 came out.

[ISiddiqui]

Harry Potter is an interesting comparison and I think I've made it. The first three were small and whatnot, but after the fourth, they did get very long and complex, but Rowling finished the 7 books in 10 years (1997-2007). The longest wait between books was 3 years between Goblet of Fire and Order of the Pheonix. I know Martin likes to rail on Rowling, but he can take a lesson from this. A BIG lesson from this!

To compare, Game of Thrones was out in 1996. It is now 2007 and who knows when this ends. He took 5 years between Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows. Then said Dance with Dragons would be out soon afterwards because a lot of it has been written... it's been over 2 fucking years since then! I don't complain about this stuff usually, but Get it done George!!

[Glengoyne]

I'm gonna take a guess that since BG hasn't posted again, that he has now been sucked into Jordan's work.

[Bonegavel]

I'm gonna take a guess that since BG hasn't posted again, that he has now been sucked into Jordan's work.

hehe, I read this thread with every update but I don't have anything to add just yet. I'm liking what people are saying (gritty, etc) and that there isn't 1 major character per se. I'm looking for something different yet the same and this looks like it may fit the bill.

I've stalled reading Gene Wolfe and need something to get me going again. I'm on Caldé of the Long Sun and just can't bring myself to read another page at this point. :(

[Glengoyne]

Ooops I said Jordan, but I meant Martin.

I'm a fan of Jordan's Wheel of Time, but haven't been able to make significant progress beyond book 8. I've heard good things about the most recent, but can't work up the motivation required to "slog" through the interim books.

[path12]

I picked up the first book in this series but haven't gotten into it yet. Procrastination in picking up new reading glasses FTL. :(

[aran]

I gave up on Jordan in the sixth book, I think. I think his characters are flat and his world is too pretty and easy. Even the badasses don't do anything truly bad except talk big about what they MIGHT do.

GRRM has captivated me with these books. I have yet to read Feast for Crows because I'm kinda bogged down in college work and some other pleasure reading at the moment, but I eagerly anticipate getting into it.

[path12]

I liked the first Wheel of Time book but after hearing about how the series just kind of meanders and doesn't really deliver anything I figured I'd cut it off there.

[chesapeake]

Too many plotlines cause the overall plot to move too slowly. This is similar to the problem Jordan had, which eventually led to an unfinished (by him) work.

After 2000+ pages, even War and Peace had some resolutions. In this work, there's no climax in sight after what -- 4,000? Indeed, the next book will only catch up the many characters he couldn't get to in book 4 to where that book ended. That, my friends, is trouble.

There are some beautiful stories being told within the greater narrative. And there is a load of chaff that should have been jettisoned. Do we really need to follow every one of the Stark kids? The Greyjoys? Don't they have editors anymore?

[ISiddiqui]

Do we really need to follow every one of the Stark kids?

Yes.

I, for one, find the stories about Sansa and Arya to be wonderful. Giving us a taste of the other parts of the realm that aren't Winterfell and King's Landing. Especially Littlefinger's plotting with Sansa (with Sansa become more and more shrewd).

Jon Snow is, obviously, important. I also think that Bran and Rickon are going to find some great stuff with Coldhands.

Of course, it may be problematic having all these threads, but having them all makes me enjoy the story much more. Though YMMV.

[GrantDawg]

Yes.

I, for one, find the stories about Sansa and Arya to be wonderful. Giving us a taste of the other parts of the realm that aren't Winterfell and King's Landing. Especially Littlefinger's plotting with Sansa (with Sansa become more and more shrewd).

Jon Snow is, obviously, important. I also think that Bran and Rickon are going to find some great stuff with Coldhands.

Of course, it may be problematic having all these threads, but having them all makes me enjoy the story much more. Though YMMV.

The Starks are definitely central, but I do agree that he has began to chase too many rabbits. Book 4 was a decent book, but really well below the other three. Most of the action could have been summarized in 10 pages among the story of the better and more important characters. Chapters on Sam? Yawn. Chapters on the Greyjoys? Eh. As much as I like Brienne as a character, even that storyline was plodding. He and Jordan seem to be affect with the same writing problem, and inability to self edit. And once you have such a large following as they do, no one else seems willing to edit you, either.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, I kind of like the history book aspect. I enjoyed all the stuff about Dorne. Those were my favorite chapters in AFFC. I also liked bringing Oldtown into it. The Greyjoy's were not wonderful, but highly interesting, especially seeing the power struggle.

[TargetPractice6]

The mailman just delivered my copy of A Game of Thrones as I was reading this thread. Can't wait to dig in.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Fellas, some good discussions here, but we should probably move them to the original thread.

Spoilers and all...

[RomaGoth]

I enjoyed the Wheel of Time series from Jordan, but found it increasingly difficult to keep up with all of the plotlines and characters. By the time I was into book 9 or 10, I had forgotten what had happened to whom with whom and where. It was very frustrating. Too bad he died before finishing the series, but I agree with other posters that plotlines need to be thinned out a little and some of them closed before it gets out of hand.

[GrantDawg]

Well, I kind of like the history book aspect. I enjoyed all the stuff about Dorne. Those were my favorite chapters in AFFC. I also liked bringing Oldtown into it. The Greyjoy's were not wonderful, but highly interesting, especially seeing the power struggle.


I'm not saying it wasn't "academically" interesting, but it would have been much more interesting as a side story written after the series was finished.