Baseball Mogul 2007 gets serious

[Celeval]

Aside from the (to me) extremely annoying habit of releasing "2007" games in 1Q 2006, here's a rundown of the features...


NEW Animated Play-By-Play! All-new in-game Manager Mode lets you call plays and make substitutions as if you were in the dugout. Or retire to the owner's box and let your coaches and players control the action. It's up to you!

NEW Pitch-By-Pitch Mode! Fully interactive pitch-by-pitch mode puts you in complete control of the game. New graphical batting and pitching interface gives you pinpoint control over each pitch. Brush back the batter with an inside fastball, then put him away with a splitter in the dirt.

NEW Custom Pitcher Database! Sports Mogul unveils a 30,000 line database with data for over 1,200 pitchers that you can't find anywhere else. Includes individually researched ratings for every pitch in each pitcher's arsenal, going back to 1901. From Gaylord Perry's spitball to Daisuke Matsuzaka's "Gyroball", Baseball Mogul 2007 is the most complete baseball simulation you can buy.

NEW Lefty-Righty Stats! Baseball Mogul 2007 tracks every match-up. Whether you are pinch-hitting in the 9th or trading for someone to platoon with your left-handed outfielder, Baseball Mogul 2007 puts all the data at your fingertips. Every scouting report includes lefty/righty splits, plus a skill breakdown against each type of pitcher (or hitter).


NEW Tradezilla! Redesigned aritificial intelligence built with evolutionary algorithms. Smarter computer opponents and new 'Waiver Wire' and 'Trading Block' features give you the challenges as a major league General Manager.

NEW Batter Rating System! Travis Hafner's ability to get around on the game's best fastballs. Manny Ramirez feasting on curveballs. Baseball Mogul 2007 features new scouting data for every better to create maximum realism and strategy.



NEW Minor League Simulation Engine! Every pitch from AAA to High School is realistically simulated for the entire league. New research for this year includes improved player development and aging algorithms. A "career graph" for every player tracking their major-league equivalent progress from draft-day until retirement.



NEW 12-Point Personality Profiles for every player and every team. Each profile affects contract negotiations. And, as an optional setting, personalities can impact on-field performance and team chemistry.

NEW 2006 Rosters! Off-season moves, free agent signings and trades. Detailed career stats, ratings, contracts and projections as of Opening Day. Plus personalized data for over 1,500 minor leaguers. Free updated rosters available during the season.

NEW Roster Tools! Baseball Mogul 2007 includes new tools (http://www.sportsmogul.com/baseball2k7/rosters.htm) for creating, editing and tweaking your own custom rosters. Cut-and-paste players from any season. Add players from your favorite college and high school teams. Mogul makes it easy to customize your baseball universe to run a league or just to share with friends.


Exclusive Licensee of the Sean Lahman Baseball Database! Includes more than 10,000 players from 1901 to 2006. You can play as any team in any year, with a revamped pitch-by-pitch simulation engine accurately modelling each historical era.


Faster Simulation Speed! It wouldn't be Baseball Mogul if you had to take a bathroom break while the season progressed. Baseball Mogul 2007 can play a full season, including all computer trades and roster moves, in under 30 seconds (http://www.sportsmogul.com/baseball2k7/speed.htm).


Improved News Stories and Expanded Box Scores

I've not bought BBM in about 4-5 years now, because it's just been so unpolished... but Clay seems to be trying to push the envelope for a single-player game. Anyone have thoughts?

[bbor]

Sounds very promising.

[DaddyTorgo]

i have never purchased BM. Played the demo and thought it was interesting but seemed unpolished. Consider my cautiously optomistic though. I'll have to try the demo, but it sounds great. Graphical pitching interface=GOLD.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Exclusive Licensee of the Sean Lahman Baseball Database! Includes more than 10,000 players from 1901 to 2006. You can play as any team in any year, with a revamped pitch-by-pitch simulation engine accurately modelling each historical era.

Did we already know this? Or is this news?
(I mean, it's news to me, but was I just behind the curve or is this the first anybody has heard of it?)

[KWhit]

Did we already know this? Or is this news?
(I mean, it's news to me, but was I just behind the curve or is this the first anybody has heard of it?)
Meaning the "exclusive" part? Does that mean that OOTP can't import the database anymore?

[PilotMan]

BM was the first baseball manager that I tried and I fell in love with it until I found OOTP, but this certainly sounds like it may be worth a look.

[JPhillips]

BB Mogul is what started me in text sims, but I'm very sceptical that all of these features will work. I would expect it to be very buggy and the stats will still be way out of whack. Clay makes fun "beer&pretzel" type games, but they just don't have the depth or accuracy of the good sims. Its nice to see him breaking out of his shell, but I'll hold off on this until I get a bunch of positive reviews.

[Toddzilla]

Ugh - I've been burned twice now by BM with the promises of improved this and redisigned that. Even the latest version was so far removed from the dynamics of real professional baseball it was a joke. OOTP will get my money when it comes out, as it should yours as well.

[Mike D]

BM was always my favorite due to it's ease of play and "baseball manager-lite" feel.

The last one I got was BM2004. I want to here more good than bad to pick this up, but I am hoping for good reviews.

[stevew]

BM is BM.

[FBPro]

BM is BM.
Concur......

[sovereignstar]

BM is BM.

And FOFC is FOFC.

[henry296]

Has he fixed the problem where runners stay on first base on groundouts to second and the batter is out.

[Galaril]

Never again.

[lighthousekeeper]

Yes Virginia!

[Eaglesfan27]

I'd have to hear glowing reviews on here from a fair number of people (or play a demo that knocks my socks off) before I'd buy.

[Eaglesfan27]

Yes Virginia!
:D

[spleen1015]

Meaning the "exclusive" part? Does that mean that OOTP can't import the database anymore?

How do you get some thing that is free exclusively?

[Shkspr]

NEW 2006 Rosters! Off-season moves, free agent signings and trades. Detailed career stats, ratings, contracts and projections as of Opening Day. Plus personalized data for over 1,500 minor leaguers. Free updated rosters available during the season.


As in, licensed by the MLBPA? Where the hell is he going to get that kind of dough?

[Eaglesfan27]

As in, licensed by the MLBPA? Where the hell is he going to get that kind of dough?

Could a big company be backing him?

[stevew]

He gets the rosters cause the game includes, or links to the lehman database. It seems shady that he's getting them without a real license. If this is actually a legal practice, then could'nt Jim basically include a roster database with his game, and then have the "real players" in it as well?

[Eaglesfan27]

However, that bullet point talks about updated rosters throughout the season and minor league players. I'm ignorant, but does the Lehmen database update midyear? Does it include minor league players?

[dervack]

NEW 12-Point Personality Profiles for every player and every team. Each profile affects contract negotiations. And, as an optional setting, personalities can impact on-field performance and team chemistry.


Awesome. Finally Baseball Mogul has something in common with match.com

[Shkspr]

Awesome. Finally Baseball Mogul has something in common with match.com

Just so long as the 12 point personality profile doesn't go like this:



Aries
Taurus
Gemini
...

[saldana]

i guess i am in the minority that likes BM more than OOTP(although i think the last OOTP i got was 2003 or 04)...i am pretty stoked about the graphical interface though...i for one am excited to see the demo.

[Marc Duffy]

OOTP Baseball Manager 2006 will allow you to import the Lahman database, nothing changes there.

[Izulde]

I originally started off on BM, and I'll buy the versions once they hit the $10 clearance bin, play for them 5 minutes, then go back to OOTP.

Last time I bought it at full retail price was back with the 2003 version.

I'm honestly thinking this is going to be another $10 one. I've gotten too used to OOTP and the community there.

[21C]

I read the title of this thread as:

Baseball Mogul 2007? Get Serious!

[GrantDawg]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on Skydog. I will not be fooled a third time.

[miked]

BM makes we want to BM.

[CraigSca]

Knowing all the issues he had with a simple one pitch batter/pitcher confrontation, it makes me shudder to think of the problems that will be created with a pitch-by-pitch mode. Was his user community clamoring for a pitch-by-pich mode to begin with?

His niche was a quick-simming, career-based baseball sim. How can one mention the following as "features" all in one breath: "pitch-by-pitch mode", "minor league simulation engine" and "faster simulation speed". Okay, what this says to me is: different engines for minors vs. majors (yuck). A "tacked-on" pitch-by-pitch mode - you can't have faster sims and at the same time add that level of micro game management. Unless...there's two different engines being used - one for pitch-by-pitch and one for quick simming. Oh great, when I use pitch-by-pitch, my team is 12-0, but when I quick sim, we're 5-15!

Really, this game could be good, and I have no doubt that Clay is smart and knowledgeable about baseball (I see him post on the SABR mailing lists all the time), I just don't understand why his game doesn't live up to the hype. Ever.

[FBPro]

I read the title of this thread as:

Baseball Mogul 2007? Get Serious!
Yep......

[Shkspr]

OOTP Baseball Manager 2006 will allow you to import the Lahman database, nothing changes there.

No, no, Marc, he's got an exclusive license. You'll have to take that feature out. :)

[Ksyrup]

Awesome. Finally Baseball Mogul has something in common with match.com
No, eharmony.com. After I've signed a guy, I'll feel confident that I've found my soulmate.

[Ksyrup]

OOTP uses the Lahman Database. BBM is becoming the exclusive licensee of the "Sean Lahman Baseball Database." Next year, I'll be the exclusive licensee of the "SL Baseball Database."

[Crapshoot]

No.

[ice4277]

Knowing all the issues he had with a simple one pitch batter/pitcher confrontation, it makes me shudder to think of the problems that will be created with a pitch-by-pitch mode. Was his user community clamoring for a pitch-by-pich mode to begin with?

His niche was a quick-simming, career-based baseball sim. How can one mention the following as "features" all in one breath: "pitch-by-pitch mode", "minor league simulation engine" and "faster simulation speed". Okay, what this says to me is: different engines for minors vs. majors (yuck). A "tacked-on" pitch-by-pitch mode - you can't have faster sims and at the same time add that level of micro game management. Unless...there's two different engines being used - one for pitch-by-pitch and one for quick simming. Oh great, when I use pitch-by-pitch, my team is 12-0, but when I quick sim, we're 5-15!

Really, this game could be good, and I have no doubt that Clay is smart and knowledgeable about baseball (I see him post on the SABR mailing lists all the time), I just don't understand why his game doesn't live up to the hype. Ever.
I really got worried when I read about all the new, fancy features, then got to the end and saw the remark about 30-second sim seasons.

[stevew]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on Skydog. I will not be fooled a third time.

Fool me once, Shame on Clay, fool me twice, won't get fooled again.

[MizzouRah]

This has to be a joke... all this NEW stuff? What about the debacle that was BM 2006? Was that game not "serious" ?? It definitly played that way.

Like EF said, MAJOR, MAJOR glowing reviews from several hundred people before I would even think about it.

Actually, I feel dirty for reading the first post. Time for a cold shower.

[Ben E Lou]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on Skydog. I will not be fooled a third time.Wait. It's MY fault that Clay didn't finish the game??? :confused:

[bryce]

I just don't understand why his game doesn't live up to the hype. Ever.

Because he has minions who buy the game year after year regardless of quality. He doesn't have any motivation to ever release a finished product. He just moves on to the next year's edition before the previous one is finished, and people gobble it up...

[Ben E Lou]

Because he has minions who buy the game year after year regardless of quality. He doesn't have any motivation to ever release a finished product. He just moves on to the next year's edition before the previous one is finished, and people gobble it up...You may be on to something there. It had been a couple of years or so since I'd bought a version of BM, so I hadn't been at their forums much until shortly before and after last year's release. I did notice a lot of people saying, "Dude, Clay's done more than enough this year. It only costs $19.99."

Maybe he needs to raise the price and therefore raise the expectations?

[CraigSca]

Sounds like there's a method to the madness. If he did raise the price, then there WOULD be greater expectations - greater than what he'd like to live up to. I'm sure he's quite comfortable with the $19.99 pricepoint.

[GrantDawg]

Wait. It's MY fault that Clay didn't finish the game??? :confused:

You talked me into buying it against my better judgement.

[rkmsuf]

Tradezilla.

Wurd.

[Schmidty]

BM is a joke.

Even if BM comes to my door on bended knee, with a handful of excellent reviews and begs for me to take him back, I still won't yanked around by him again. Unless he also brings chocolate.

[bbor]

I know nothing about this product....but can it really be thios bad?

[SFL Cat]

Sounds too good to be true....and you know what they say....

[SFL Cat]

dola -- could be the sim baseball equivalent of MAXIMUM FOOTBALL

[Schmidty]

Even if BM ends up having all of those bells and whistles doesn't mean the guts of the game are going to be anything more than garbage.

[MizzouRah]

Garbage is right.

You seeing this jb? ;)

I wonder when he'll have the "Baseball Mogul 2008 suggestions" thread up?

I would however, love to see Clay prove us all wrong... but he has a lot of work to do.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Even if BM ends up having all of those bells and whistles doesn't mean the guts of the game are going to be anything more than garbage.

I actually think the guts of the game are fairly solid. I loved the variety of player development models that he had in the game (a few versions ago anyway).

Up until four years ago, I fell into the small crowd that just preferred to play Baseball Mogul over OOTP. Seasons went along quickly, there was enough of an AI to make taking a small budget team to success challenging for me with a few simple house rules, the player models felt realistic, and the financial engine was solid. It simply felt like a complete game, as opposed to OOTP at the time, which felt more like all these great half complete features that kind of worked (I remember spending three or four days of my life trying to get the financial model in one of the older versions of OOTP to simply function at all logically).

About three/four versions ago though, things really spiraled downward with Baseball Mogul. Patches were released hidden on the fourth page of an obscure post, usually with something like "Give this a try". New features were non-existant. I remember I ran about 30 seasons worth of stats to test the development of the baseball world, then posted the info on the board pointing out what seemed off, and getting a response along the lines of "That's great work. Very helpful." And I remember thinking, "You mean, no one did what I just did to check the patch before releasing it? Isn't it kind of obvious that something is wrong when team ERA plummets to 3.00 over the first twenty years of every sim?" Or something like that. You get the idea.

Then things just went from bad to worse. No information from anyone involved with the company on the forums. No news of patches. Last official post would say something like, "we're working on a patch to fix these issues. It'll be out soon." and that would be about four months old, with no subsequent posts. Versions of the game were left unfinished, with annoying bugs that simply carried over from one version to the next.

In short, I didn't feel the love.

As much I liked the series, I promised myself never to buy the game again until I had seen glowing reports that it played as intended and that it was indeed complete, with solid long-term stats and player development.

I'll jump right up and buy the game again if it gets to that stage. But someone else is going to have to go first and let me know how it looks.

[miked]

dola -- could be the sim baseball equivalent of MAXIMUM FOOTBALL

Close, but BM actually exists and sells...just really sucks. Maximum Football doesn't quite exist yet unless your name is Bubba. :p

[SFL Cat]

Close, but BM actually exists and sells...just really sucks. Maximum Football doesn't quite exist yet unless your name is Bubba. :p

Previous versions exist, yes. But not the pie-in-the-sky 2007 version. :cool:

[sovereignstar]

Sounds like there's a method to the madness. If he did raise the price, then there WOULD be greater expectations - greater than what he'd like to live up to. I'm sure he's quite comfortable with the $19.99 pricepoint.

There is definitely something behind the 20 dollar costs. As Todd put it last year:

At $20, I took the chance.

[sovereignstar]

Okay, this is funny.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=775186&postcount=1059

[sovereignstar]

da da DA!

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=875463&postcount=1169

[MizzouRah]

Okay, this is funny.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=775186&postcount=1059
What, no takers? ;)

[FBPro]

dola -- could be the sim baseball equivalent of MAXIMUM FOOTBALL
Exactly what I was thinking.

[ice4277]

Exactly what I was thinking.
Well, the fact that we know that Baseball Mogul actually exists puts it a step ahead of Maximum Football.

[FBPro]

You do have a point there, a small one but a good one.

[Buccaneer]

No, no, Marc, he's got an exclusive license. You'll have to take that feature out. :)
Over. My. Dead. Body.

[SackAttack]

Over. My. Dead. Body.

Bucc, we knew you were old, but dead?

What's your secret?

[iansmith]

Hello, I thought I would throw my two cents in.

Even EA, with hundreds of people on Madden can't put everything in they want. With a very small company, we have to pick and choose what to do each year. Sometimes we get everything in, sometimes a feature turns out to be more complicated than we guessed.

Deciding what to put in is often harder than doing the work. Trying to figure out if a feature is widely wanted or just demanded by a vocal minority can be difficult at best. Trust me... we don't choose what to put in based on how much it will annoy our customers! Only billion dollar companies can get away with THAT!

If you think we are missing a vital feature, feel free to post to the boards or write an email. We do read everything we get. I spend a good part of my day responding to emails, as does everyone else here.

As for the Lahman Database, exclusive means just that.. we are the only game developer to pay him to use his work. This is not new, we have been licensing his database for several years, we just never mentioned it before. There is nothing stopping other developers from doing the same thing. But until they do, we can brag that we are the only ones. :-) The data, the actual stats are public domain, but the compiled and sorted database is copyrighted to Sean Lahman.

Last, there is a good reason there are arcade baseball games, text only number sims, and the various management games. Tastes in games differ, and what one likes, someone else hates. Pick one you like, and have fun!

[Eaglesfan27]

Hello, I thought I would throw my two cents in.

Even EA, with hundreds of people on Madden can't put everything in they want. With a very small company, we have to pick and choose what to do each year. Sometimes we get everything in, sometimes a feature turns out to be more complicated than we guessed.

Deciding what to put in is often harder than doing the work. Trying to figure out if a feature is widely wanted or just demanded by a vocal minority can be difficult at best. Trust me... we don't choose what to put in based on how much it will annoy our customers! Only billion dollar companies can get away with THAT!

If you think we are missing a vital feature, feel free to post to the boards or write an email. We do read everything we get. I spend a good part of my day responding to emails, as does everyone else here.

As for the Lahman Database, exclusive means just that.. we are the only game developer to pay him to use his work. This is not new, we have been licensing his database for several years, we just never mentioned it before. There is nothing stopping other developers from doing the same thing. But until they do, we can brag that we are the only ones. :-) The data, the actual stats are public domain, but the compiled and sorted database is copyrighted to Sean Lahman.

Last, there is a good reason there are arcade baseball games, text only number sims, and the various management games. Tastes in games differ, and what one likes, someone else hates. Pick one you like, and have fun!

Your bullet points make it sound like you have "real" minor league players in the game. Can you clarify if you do?

[iansmith]

I assume you are asking about the line: Plus personalized data for over 1,500 minor leaguers.

We will be including players from the current minor leagues in the new release, so yes they are real players.

In fact, I can peek over my monitor and see minor league players on Clays screen right now. :D Clay says hi.

[jbmagic]

same old hype like BM 2006 and that game was full of bugs that was never fix.

i dont see BM 2007 being any different.

[dervack]

same old hype like BM 2006 and that game was full of bugs that was never fix.

i dont see BM 2007 being any different.
So speaketh JB.

If he hates the game, you know it's bad.

[jbmagic]

So speaketh JB.

If he hates the game, you know it's bad.


others beside me are saying the game is bad too.


go ahead and be the sucker and buy the game. so we can laugh at you.

be a fanboy and buy the game.

[Buccaneer]

So speaketh JB.

If he hates the game, you know it's bad.
No, if he hates the game or calls it full of bugs, you know he still doesn't have a clue.

[sovereignstar]

So speaketh JB.

If he hates the game, you know it's bad.

I'd say things are worse if MizzouRah says it's bad. :)

[jbmagic]

No, if he hates the game or calls it full of bugs, you know he still doesn't have a clue.


umm

am i the only one in the thread saying this?

i guess you have a clue and you will be the smart one to buy it.

BM 2006 suck big time.

[sovereignstar]

umm

am i the only one in the thread saying this?

i guess you have a clue and you will be the smart one to buy it.

BM 2006 suck big time.

Bucc doesn't play anything besides FBCB. Judging by his old IHOF team, I'm not sure if he ever played FOF.

[Buccaneer]

Bucc doesn't play anything besides FBCB. Judging by his old IHOF team, I'm not sure if he ever played FOF.
Don't forget Civ4. Which reminds me, I should be getting back to that game instead of pontificating at FOFC on a Friday Night. :)

[Ben E Lou]

umm

am i the only one in the thread saying this?

i guess you have a clue and you will be the smart one to buy it.

BM 2006 suck big time.No, jb. I believe he's saying that you don't have a clue in general, an example of which is the fact that you somehow thought he was only talking about BM.

[dervack]

others beside me are saying the game is bad too.


go ahead and be the sucker and buy the game. so we can laugh at you.

be a fanboy and buy the game.
Uh, hello, I have never, ever bought a BM and never will. If I'm going to wait until a demo for OOTP 2006, you think I would just buy this game because of a press release that features an eharmony.com feature?

[Drake]

No, jb. I believe he's saying that you don't have a clue in general, an example of which is the fact that you somehow thought he was only talking about BM.

I thought Bucc was saying that he knew BM's all too well.

[Buccaneer]

SkyDog is correct.

[DanGarion]

BM is good as a fast sim game if you just want to browse through numbers and stats. That's basically one of the main reasons I bought it. Another is the ease of doing a quick 20-30 season league. It's nice to be able to put a game on autopilot for 30 minutes and then seeing what happened.

2006 was the first BM I had purchased. I've already purchased OOTP 2006 so I don't know if/when I will get BM, I'd still like to give Puresim a shot one of these days.

[Izulde]

You know what I find sad? Once upon a time BM used to be really fun and exciting to play, but then that all changed along the way.

[Young Drachma]

I didn't mind BM2006. It simmed fast enough and served its purpose as far as that was concerned for me.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Clay's real good at writing feature lists, sadly not so good at implementing them...

[MizzouRah]

Did you guys even PLAY Baseball Mogul 2006?

It is FAR AND AWAY the most realistic baseball sim I've ever played. Diamond Mind has problems with short seasons. If a guy went 4-for-5 in 1967, DM makes him bat .800 and then get injured!

OOTP has the same problems with short seasons of course, plus major sim flaws like guys routinely hitting 80 homers.

Mogul 2006 has none of these flaws. In fact I've probably played over 1,000 seasons and never seen anything unrealistic. From the playing time to the pitching and talent levels over time, they totally got it right in this version.

I have a Mogul sim in 2087. Hank Aaron is #3 on the All-Time homer list. Pujols is #2, and a ROTY ended up topping 800.

Mogul 2006 got a "90" from PC Gamer. Note that these are the same guys that game the previous version a "74".

If it's been a while since you played Mogul, you need to pick it up again instead of just shooting one-liners back and forth on this thread to boost your post count.

KW
Priceless! ;)

[Cuckoo]

Did you guys even PLAY Baseball Mogul 2006?

It is FAR AND AWAY the most realistic baseball sim I've ever played. Diamond Mind has problems with short seasons. If a guy went 4-for-5 in 1967, DM makes him bat .800 and then get injured!

OOTP has the same problems with short seasons of course, plus major sim flaws like guys routinely hitting 80 homers.

Mogul 2006 has none of these flaws. In fact I've probably played over 1,000 seasons and never seen anything unrealistic. From the playing time to the pitching and talent levels over time, they totally got it right in this version.

I have a Mogul sim in 2087. Hank Aaron is #3 on the All-Time homer list. Pujols is #2, and a ROTY ended up topping 800.

Mogul 2006 got a "90" from PC Gamer. Note that these are the same guys that game the previous version a "74".

If it's been a while since you played Mogul, you need to pick it up again instead of just shooting one-liners back and forth on this thread to boost your post count.

KW


Just wow.

This has to be sarcasm. Otherwise, it's a disgrace to one of my favorite Cubs. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

... served its purpose as far as that was concerned for me.

That pretty much sums up my take as well.
It's easy to beat with "metagaming", easy to build dynasties in, the numbers sometimes (okay, often) border on the absurd ... but I also got more playing time & enjoyment out of it than any baseball game I've played in several years.

It was quick, it was easy, it was very low-impact gaming (good for mindless fun basically) and I was primarily interested in just strolling down memory lane with the inbound rookies from the database as they entered the league each year anyway.

It sure as heck wasn't brain surgery ... but I easily got my money's worth out of it last year. And that ain't a bad thing IMO.

[Fouts]

I actually think the guts of the game are fairly solid. I loved the variety of player development models that he had in the game (a few versions ago anyway).

Up until four years ago, I fell into the small crowd that just preferred to play Baseball Mogul over OOTP. Seasons went along quickly, there was enough of an AI to make taking a small budget team to success challenging for me with a few simple house rules, the player models felt realistic, and the financial engine was solid. It simply felt like a complete game, as opposed to OOTP at the time, which felt more like all these great half complete features that kind of worked (I remember spending three or four days of my life trying to get the financial model in one of the older versions of OOTP to simply function at all logically).

About three/four versions ago though, things really spiraled downward with Baseball Mogul. Patches were released hidden on the fourth page of an obscure post, usually with something like "Give this a try". New features were non-existant. I remember I ran about 30 seasons worth of stats to test the development of the baseball world, then posted the info on the board pointing out what seemed off, and getting a response along the lines of "That's great work. Very helpful." And I remember thinking, "You mean, no one did what I just did to check the patch before releasing it? Isn't it kind of obvious that something is wrong when team ERA plummets to 3.00 over the first twenty years of every sim?" Or something like that. You get the idea.

Then things just went from bad to worse. No information from anyone involved with the company on the forums. No news of patches. Last official post would say something like, "we're working on a patch to fix these issues. It'll be out soon." and that would be about four months old, with no subsequent posts. Versions of the game were left unfinished, with annoying bugs that simply carried over from one version to the next.

In short, I didn't feel the love.

As much I liked the series, I promised myself never to buy the game again until I had seen glowing reports that it played as intended and that it was indeed complete, with solid long-term stats and player development.

I'll jump right up and buy the game again if it gets to that stage. But someone else is going to have to go first and let me know how it looks.

Best post in this thread.

Edit: I loved the first version I played, and even tried the online game. It was fun, but not very difficult. I liked the newspaper articles though. Looking forward to a demo.

[Coop]

Did you guys even PLAY Baseball Mogul 2006?

It is FAR AND AWAY the most realistic baseball sim I've ever played. Diamond Mind has problems with short seasons. If a guy went 4-for-5 in 1967, DM makes him bat .800 and then get injured!

OOTP has the same problems with short seasons of course, plus major sim flaws like guys routinely hitting 80 homers.

Mogul 2006 has none of these flaws. In fact I've probably played over 1,000 seasons and never seen anything unrealistic. From the playing time to the pitching and talent levels over time, they totally got it right in this version.

I have a Mogul sim in 2087. Hank Aaron is #3 on the All-Time homer list. Pujols is #2, and a ROTY ended up topping 800.

Mogul 2006 got a "90" from PC Gamer. Note that these are the same guys that game the previous version a "74".

If it's been a while since you played Mogul, you need to pick it up again instead of just shooting one-liners back and forth on this thread to boost your post count.

KWVIRAL MARKETING ALERT

[Eaglesfan27]

VIRAL MARKETING ALERT

Exactly.

[Swaggs]

This thread just developed a lot of potential.

[Dreslough]

How can one mention the following as "features" all in one breath: "pitch-by-pitch mode", "minor league simulation engine" and "faster simulation speed". Okay, what this says to me is: different engines for minors vs. majors (yuck).
Oops. Then we shouldn't have described it that way. The past engine essentially created "minor league equivalencies" for every player BEFORE playing minor league games (since every player already has "major league equivalencies" stored in memory, regardless of what level they are at). This made sense at the time. For example, Manny Ramirez might hit .390 in AAA, so I boosted his batting average to .390 for every minor league game. I did the same for pitchers -- cranked up their stats for every minor league level below the majors. This was a shortcut since the first Mogul didn't have minor league games. But the shortcut led to inaccuracies. It's like if the stock market goes UP 50% and then goes DOWN 50%. It's not back where it started. It's actually 25% BELOW where it started.

So, there is a "new minor league engine" this year in that I have completely re-done the way it matches up batters and pitchers. Instead of giving each a "bonus" for playing against minor league competition, I compare the player abilities directly. This made it more accurate and sped it up since it was time-consuming to translate everyone's stats before every at-bat.

A "tacked-on" pitch-by-pitch mode - you can't have faster sims and at the same time add that level of micro game management. Unless...there's two different engines being used - one for pitch-by-pitch and one for quick simming. Oh great, when I use pitch-by-pitch, my team is 12-0, but when I quick sim, we're 5-15!
There's only one simulation engine. I add detail, then Ian makes it faster. He runs tools that tell me things like the fact that one function is eating up 67% of our CPU time. Then we look at the function and find a way to make it faster. Sometimes we cache values (like storing a player's "On Base Plus Slugging" instead of calculating it every time you need it). Sometimes we re-write or merge code. Sometimes we 'inline' functions.

It's actually pretty amazing how fast the simulation has gotten. It only takes 6 seconds to sim a full season now. The other 23 seconds (on my machine) are mostly spent doing GM-related AI.

I don't know if anyone's interested in an introductory computer science course, but there are good reasons the sim is faster than the AI. The sim is "linear". It checks a list, see's who's batting next, picks a pitch, throws it, sees where it's hit, checks if a defender makes the play, moves the runners, then records the result. It repeats this tiny little loop over and over.

If simming 20 games takes 20 milliseconds, then simming 2000 games will take 2000 milliseconds. It scales linearly.

In contrast, the AI has a number of functions that scale in proportion to the SQUARE of the data involved. For example, if I'm sorting 15 players to find the best 9 for my lineup, I need to evaluate every player and then go back through the list twenty times to sort it. Since each path through the list has 15 calculations, I'm doing 15 x 15 = 225 calcuations.

If I'm sorting 125 players to find the best 9 for my lineup, I need to evaluate every player and then go back through the list 125 times to sort it. Since each path through the list has 125 calculations, I'm doing 125 x 125 = 15,625 calculations -- much more than a linear increase from the 15-player example.

It's obviously more complicated than this -- with player aging, contract negotations, free agent signings, injuries and everything else going on in the background. But the basic lesson is that the sim itself isn't the bottleneck.

So, this year's sim is both more detailed and faster than last year. Ian gets 99% of the credit for the speed of the sim.

Clay

[DanGarion]

Oops. Then we shouldn't have described it that way. The past engine essentially created "minor league equivalencies" for every player BEFORE playing minor league games (since every player already has "major league equivalencies" stored in memory, regardless of what level they are at). This made sense at the time. For example, Manny Ramirez might hit .390 in AAA, so I boosted his batting average to .390 for every minor league game. I did the same for pitchers -- cranked up their stats for every minor league level below the majors. This was a shortcut since the first Mogul didn't have minor league games. But the shortcut led to inaccuracies. It's like if the stock market goes UP 50% and then goes DOWN 50%. It's not back where it started. It's actually 25% BELOW where it started.

So, there is a "new minor league engine" this year in that I have completely re-done the way it matches up batters and pitchers. Instead of giving each a "bonus" for playing against minor league competition, I compare the player abilities directly. This made it more accurate and sped it up since it was time-consuming to translate everyone's stats before every at-bat.


There's only one simulation engine. I add detail, then Ian makes it faster. He runs tools that tell me things like the fact that one function is eating up 67% of our CPU time. Then we look at the function and find a way to make it faster. Sometimes we cache values (like storing a player's "On Base Plus Slugging" instead of calculating it every time you need it). Sometimes we re-write or merge code. Sometimes we 'inline' functions.

It's actually pretty amazing how fast the simulation has gotten. It only takes 6 seconds to sim a full season now. The other 23 seconds (on my machine) are mostly spent doing GM-related AI.

I don't know if anyone's interested in an introductory computer science course, but there are good reasons the sim is faster than the AI. The sim is "linear". It checks a list, see's who's batting next, picks a pitch, throws it, sees where it's hit, checks if a defender makes the play, moves the runners, then records the result. It repeats this tiny little loop over and over.

If simming 20 games takes 20 milliseconds, then simming 2000 games will take 2000 milliseconds. It scales linearly.

In contrast, the AI has a number of functions that scale in proportion to the SQUARE of the data involved. For example, if I'm sorting 15 players to find the best 9 for my lineup, I need to evaluate every player and then go back through the list twenty times to sort it. Since each path through the list has 15 calculations, I'm doing 15 x 15 = 225 calcuations.

If I'm sorting 125 players to find the best 9 for my lineup, I need to evaluate every player and then go back through the list 125 times to sort it. Since each path through the list has 125 calculations, I'm doing 125 x 125 = 15,625 calculations -- much more than a linear increase from the 15-player example.

It's obviously more complicated than this -- with player aging, contract negotations, free agent signings, injuries and everything else going on in the background. But the basic lesson is that the sim itself isn't the bottleneck.

So, this year's sim is both more detailed and faster than last year. Ian gets 99% of the credit for the speed of the sim.

Clay
Thanks for coming on here Clay. Unfortunately you'll get a lot of grief here and as you already probably realized. I've been happy with you game and what it brings to the table. There are parts are like about it and parts I dislike. But that's the same as any game out there.

Good luck on BM 2007.

[Galaril]

For those that dare:

Baseball mogul '07 previewBM 2007 (http://pc.gamezone.com/gzreviews/p28680.htm)

[Bee]

I probably won't get BM 2007 because I'm not a baseball fan and if I buy a baseball game it will be the SI Games OOTP one. That being said, I did buy BM 2006 and while it had bugs and issues, I didn't find it to be as bad as others seemed to. I actually had some fun with it for a couple weeks which is more than BBCF has given so far. I was disappointed BM 2006 wasn't patched to the point that I thought it was a good game, but I didn't see it as the complete disaster that I guess some others did.

[Toddzilla]

BM2007 = Maximin Football - Vaporware

[Galaril]

http://www.gameshark.com/previews/3121/Baseball-Mogul-2007-Preview.htm

Bill Abner sees some hope for this series still I am leery. But, it is good to have some competition

[SunDevil]

I will never buy this game. Every year it's suppose to be better and different, and every year it falls flat and I save money.

[Ragone]

Awesome. Finally Baseball Mogul has something in common with match.com


i think thats e-harmony.. but i digress.. is joey long in this game?

[Fouts]

Supposed to be available by download around March 22nd (I'll be playing Oblivion though).

From the website;

Baseball Mogul 2007 is the only game that lets you play in any season from 1901 to 2006, complete with accurate rosters and ratings for thousands of major and minor league players.

This makes it sound like the minor leaguers from every season (1901-2006) are included. Is this true? I wasn't aware that Lahman's database had all the minor league stats.

[21C]

Baseball Mogul 2007 is the only game that lets you play in any season from 1901 to 2006 ( where the 2006 season will be complete with accurate rosters and ratings for thousands of major and minor league players.
I think it's meant to read that way although I'm sure someone at Mogul would like you to read it the other way but only find out after you've bought it.

I would seriously wait like a month after release to see if there are any lingering issues which I'm sure there will be - based on empirical evidence in the past.

Mogul is like one of those girls you meet in a club and you think she looks OK after you've had a few drinks. You take her home and she still seems like the real deal but when you wake up in the morning you see her in the harsh light of day, and you're sober, and you start considering gnawing your own arm off so that you don't have to wake her to leave.

[Marc Duffy]

Just incase it's not clear, OOTP Baseball 2006 still fully supports the Lahman database.

[GrantDawg]

Just incase it's not clear, OOTP Baseball 2006 still fully supports the Lahman database.


But BM has EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS! How can OOTP use it then? Won't somebody please think of the children?

[dervack]

i think thats e-harmony.. but i digress.. is joey long in this game?
Hi, welcome to the first page.

[DaddyTorgo]

Just incase it's not clear, OOTP Baseball 2006 still fully supports the Lahman database.

i am just curious Marc...how is this going to work? And I know you can't necessarily speak to this then, but what good are the "exclusive rights" then?

[JPhillips]

Daddy: I would assume it will work like it always has. The DBase is freely available and can be imported in its Access form. I don't know, but would guess that BBMogul will have the DBase with the game and have some sort of one-click option to start from any year. The license will probably just be to include the name and the DBase with the software.

At least that's what I would expect.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's what i was thinking too...i was just wondering

[Marc Duffy]

i am just curious Marc...how is this going to work? And I know you can't necessarily speak to this then, but what good are the "exclusive rights" then?

It's my understanding that 'exclusive' means Baseball Mogul have paid to have the database included in their download package

It's business as usual for all OOTP fans.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's my understanding that 'exclusive' means Baseball Mogul have paid to have the database included in their download package

It's business as usual for all OOTP fans.

awesome. business as usual wasn't much than an initial pain-in-the-ass. this just reaffirms my likely avoiding BM and purchasing OOTP (although of course both will get fair shots with the demos)

[Fouts]

This makes it sound like the minor leaguers from every season (1901-2006) are included. Is this true? I wasn't aware that Lahman's database had all the minor league stats.

It is true. Minor leaguers are imported in their first pro year. Nice.

[Galaril]

This is being released at midnight tonight the 24th for $19.95 for anyone interested. I hope the best for Clay being he is one of early text sim developers.

[Logan]

This was a fun thread to read. And dervack's match.com line (even if it was slightly wrong) absolutely killed me. :)

[iansmith]

As I mentioned before, exclusive indeed means that we are the only baseball sim that pays Sean Lahman for the use of his baseball database. We have done this for several years.

It still confuses me why people seem to think this is a bad thing. Anyone is free to pay Sean for the rights to include the full database in their game.

If a someone decides not to pay to include the database in their game, don't get mad at Sports Mogul for pointing that out.

[Galaril]

I know last years version was messed up but I am kind of surprised no one is talking about this one. I will be the first to say I wasted alot of time on the game last year and felt it wasn't a finsihed product.But,I am like a crack addict when it comes to text sports sims and especially baseball games and it is looking like Clay has implemented well alot of the stuff thatshould of been in the game last year. I promised myself that I would buy after last year but.................what I am reading over at the mogul site is pretty positive not much whining. I know SkyDog you put alot of time into thegame last year to help make it a better game and your absence as far as commenting the lastest version is alittle surprising.

[jbmagic]

Skydog, how you liking the latest patch for Baseball Mogul 2007?

Do you recommend the game?

[Fouts]

Skydog, how you liking the latest patch for Baseball Mogul 2007?

Do you recommend the game?

Hmm, I don't even see Skydog posting that he bought BM2007. Why would you single him out?

[MizzouRah]

Hmm, I don't even see Skydog posting that he bought BM2007. Why would you single him out?

Like me, I think he gave up last year.

[TroyF]

I know last years version was messed up but I am kind of surprised no one is talking about this one. I will be the first to say I wasted alot of time on the game last year and felt it wasn't a finsihed product.But,I am like a crack addict when it comes to text sports sims and especially baseball games and it is looking like Clay has implemented well alot of the stuff thatshould of been in the game last year. I promised myself that I would buy after last year but.................what I am reading over at the mogul site is pretty positive not much whining. I know SkyDog you put alot of time into thegame last year to help make it a better game and your absence as far as commenting the lastest version is alittle surprising.


I like the game. But I think it will be a distant 3rd in the text sim market this year. I cna't get the financials the way I like them. And when teams start falling off, it's difficult to get them back on track.

I wish this thing had a global editor, it may save it.

It did a lot of things right this year and it WAS worth the money I spent on it. But I can't see myself playing this after PureSim and OOTP hit the shelves.

[Galaril]

Anyone else still playing this?

[amdaily]

Anyone else still playing this?

Another official patch came out yesterday. It still some stat issues over the long haul and financial issues for small market teams.

Instead of playing, I've simmed about 1500 years in the past week testing out sim settings, rookie setting, financial settings, and an updated stadium file.

Still glad I bought it though. Much improved over last year.

[Galaril]

Well, as I slowly feel OOTPB 06 disappear into the distances of my rearview mirror and the lack of ANY 2006 roster start up file from the PS Modders community I took a gander over at Baseball Mogul. I read this and took alook at there forums tech problems area and it doesn't look bad at all. I was thinking Baseball Mogul 2008, but I'm now hoping to make some significant improvements in 9.40 or 9.50, available within the next couple of months.
I think for 19.99 it is a fair price and they have full 2006 minors as well as majors Database available. Cool. This is an interesting post from Clay talking about what he is going to be working on related to the AI. Proactive-type AI.

{QUOTE}
HoustonGM, disposablehero, etc. have some great points -- and they are also right that this kind of AI is hard.

There are a lot of reasons for this. Like you want to simulate real baseball. For example the Red Sox traded Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. In my opinion, stupid trade. It was clear with 3 aging starters that they needed Bronson more than they needed a 4th outfielder that still hadn't shown he could hit righties. But there's an argument that Pena's age and potential made him more "valuable".

So a lot of focus in the Mogul AI went on the valuation -- making sure that you can't offer 3 scrubby relievers to a computer in exchange for Andruw Jones (even if the computer REALLY needs relievers). This is basically "reactive AI" and this is where the game improved with "Tradezilla".

But "pro-active AI" is a different issue. You need to have each computer team formulate a plan based on their needs, finances, standings position, and talent. Then they basically need to "write down" that plan and follow through on it like so:

1) Get a setup man for the playoff run.
2) Get a 4th outfielder so I can rest Manny Ramirez and Trot Nixon.
3) Try to get one or two starting pitchers under age 25 with an 87+ Peak Rating, because Schilling and Wells are over the hill. But don't give up too much, and DEFINITELY don't give up
4) Find a prospect at short because Gonzales is underperforming and his contract is about to expire and we don't plan to renew.
5) Get a backup veteran infielder in case we lose an infielder to injury. Willie Harris just doesn't have the arm to fill this role at 3B or SS if needed.
6) I'm $2,000,000 under budget. I'm willing to go $1,000,000 over budget for a chance to win. Would be nice to unload Trot Nixon as he's earning $6.5M and Stern and Pena are just as productive and less injury-prone.
7) If I DON'T lower payroll, I could trade for a setup man earning about $2,200,000 and a backup infielder earning $800,000. If I unload Trot, I could spend $4,000,000 and $1,000,000 and use the extra money to take on payroll in a trade -- or use as cash in the trade.

It's not too hard for a human GM to come up with this list. But it's pretty complicated for a computer and creates lots of things to check and track so they don't look stupid. Maybe the computer wants to unload Trot. But another team gives him an offer for Manny Ramirez (a guy that the real-life Red Sox have been trying to unload). Do you take it to lower your payroll? What if you're in the playoff hunt? The Red Sox want to win every year and they want to unload Manny because they thought they could get more value using his salary elsewhere.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this and have some ideas but it won't be a quick fix. But I think it's important that I start making the changes in patches to Mogul 2007 so that we have the AI tested thoroughly for Mogul 2008.

Clay__________________

[Mike D]

I'm ready to get back into the baseball sim world, I always loved the ease of Baseball Mogul but I like the in game play of OOTP.

I may have to think realistically about how much time I have to play baseball games and may just go with BM.

[Galaril]

I'm ready to get back into the baseball sim world, I always loved the ease of Baseball Mogul but I like the in game play of OOTP.

I may have to think realistically about how much time I have to play baseball games and may just go with BM.


Uhm,............have you read any of the OOTP thread or been on SI's board and read the "Bugs"...... I mean "Tech" forum there. I would reconsider OOTP 06.

[James.Gattis]

Uhm,............have you read any of the the OOTP thread or been on SI's board and read the bugs I mean tech forum there. I would reconsider OOTP 06.LOL! You will definitely find Mogul much easier to play but you will ALSO get a lot mroe playing time out of it, considering Ootp 2006 is full of bugs and the game play took a huge step backwards this year. I only bought Mogul 5 days ago and I've probably played it for 50 hours. If you've played OOtp before and loved it you should go get OOTP 6.5 (I think it might only be $19.95 now, but it is two years old). Otherwise pick up Baseball Mogul 2007, also only $19.95. I waited for 2 years for Ootp 2006 and it was such a mess I bought Mogul. Totally surprised by how much it has changed since 2004.

[Mike D]

I am leaning towards Baseball Mogul. For $19.99, its worth it to just pick it up and see for myself.

[jbmagic]

I am leaning towards Baseball Mogul. For $19.99, its worth it to just pick it up and see for myself.


just try the demo first.

[Eaglesfan27]

I am leaning towards Baseball Mogul. For $19.99, its worth it to just pick it up and see for myself.

I'm starting to get baseball fever, too. With the news that the next OOTP patch won't be out until at least July (which is understandable given the severity of problems), I'll probably check out the demo for Baseball Mogul and maybe buy it.

[Eaglesfan27]

Ok, I've been playing the demo for the last few hours and I like what I see so far. I'm particularly fond of the negotiations process which feels more like a negotiation than many other games I've played.

I'm wondering a few things:

How long will the demo last? I can't seem to find that information, and I'm just about to enter into the offseason, so I guess I'll find out eventually, but I'm still curious.

Also, can someone who has bought this summarize the key problems in their opinion that still remain.

Oh yeah, I'm mostly interested in starting a current day MLB League and playing forward in time. From what I remember reading in the past, people said that most of the problems are in historical play. I would not be buying this game for historical play, although I might eventually try that out if it works well.

[DaddyTorgo]

Ok, I've been playing the demo for the last few hours and I like what I see so far. I'm particularly fond of the negotiations process which feels more like a negotiations than many other games I've played.

I'm wondering a few things:

How long will the demo last? I can't seem to find that information, and I'm just about to enter into the offseason, so I guess I'll find out eventually, but I'm still curious.

Also, can someone who has bought this summarize the key problems in their opinion that still remain.

Oh yeah, I'm mostly interested in starting a current day MLB League and playing forward in time. From what I remember reading in the past, people said that most of the problems are in historical play. I would not be buying this game for historical play, although I might eventually try that out if it works well.

the demo lasts until...crap i forget when. FWIW from what I remember, the chief thing still broken is the financials, in that bad AI teams go into financial freefall which results in talent-freefall. Someone pointed out that this is fairly quick to correct every few years by giving them a big cash infusion. but that was a while back, i'm not sure, clay may have patched that (hoping?). anyone with the game care to comment, as i've just played the demo

[Eaglesfan27]

I've just read the impressions thread, and TroyF mentions giving teams a cash infusion every 5 years and that it only takes a few minutes to do this. If this is the only major problem, I'll probably purchase this tonight as this might be the best baseball sim for my needs at this point, all factors being considered. Any other big problems that anyone knows about?

[Terps]

Demo lasts until opening day of the 2007 season.

[jbmagic]

I've just read the impressions thread, and TroyF mentions giving teams a cash infusion every 5 years and that it only takes a few minutes to do this. If this is the only major problem, I'll probably purchase this tonight as this might be the best baseball sim for my needs at this point, all factors being considered. Any other big problems that anyone knows about?

Have you consider trying puresim 2007 demo too?

[Terps]

I'm probably going to buy too. I ran a season of the demo and didn't notice any major flaws. I like the way negotiations work, since you actually go back and forth with the player.

Meanwhile, OOTP2006 remains collecting dust, so to speak.

[JPhillips]

My biggest complaint with BM2007 is the horrible roster management. Teams don't know when to promote prospects to the major league club. Prospects tend to reach their maximum development with languishing in A or even Rookie leagues. There seems to be something coded that values veterans more than rookies.

[Eaglesfan27]

My biggest complaint with BM2007 is the horrible roster management. Teams don't know when to promote prospects to the major league club. Prospects tend to reach their maximum development with languishing in A or even Rookie leagues. There seems to be something coded that values veterans more than rookies.

Ouch. That is not good. I'm glad I didn't buy last night (I was very close a few times.) Is this something that is being looked at in a patch?

[MizzouRah]

Ouch. That is not good. I'm glad I didn't buy last night (I was very close a few times.) Is this something that is being looked at in a patch?

Yeah, bbmogul 2008.

[Galaril]

Yeah, bbmogul 2008.


Oh, sorry no slae. Shit. When is that EA NFL Headcoach game caming out? I am about done with the baseball other than some historical puresim.

[MizzouRah]

Oh, sorry no slae. Shit. When is that EA NFL Headcoach game caming out? I am about done with the baseball other than some historical puresim.

I was being an ass. Check out the mogul website and see if Clay is still patching this version.

[Galaril]

I was being an ass. Check out the mogul website and see if Clay is still patching this version.

Oh, I am naive.

oH :o

[MizzouRah]

Oh, I am naive.

oH :o

No, I was the naive one last year.

[Desmond]

As someone who has been frustrated with OOTP for a couple of years now, I picked up Mogul last month and was pleasantly surprised. I can't give alot of in depth feedback on it except to say that it felt alot more like the earlier versions of the game than the recent ones. That is to say that it was fun.

I've played 2 careers, both historical. I took over the expansion Mets and Blue Jays and had alot of fun just playing the game simply and easily. The minors, for me at least worked well and I enjoyed seeing some guys develop and some guys not but the minors seemed to work pretty well.

I will give this caveat however. When I took over the Mets it was amazingly easy to dominate. Within 3 years I had enough money and always had enough money to dominate the league. From 65-85 I won 18 division/league titles, and made 12 World Series appearances. My rotation for a long time included Gibson, Carlton, Marichal & Koosman. Carlton won over 400 games for me and the career in the end became a quest to try and get him to Cy Youngs record, but alas it fell short.

My Blue Jays career was also fun, but in the old sense of Mogul being fun. Again, minors worked well and I had to keep my payroll trim and build thru my farm system. I never won a division title but was able to load up for a 4 year stretch and win 90+ games consistently but I just couldn't overcome the Yanks or Sox.

Stats were good, tracking is good, can't comment on the trade AI all that much as I didn't really try and make a big trade or look at the trades in depth so I can't comment on that too much.

[FBPro]

I will give this caveat however. When I took over the Mets it was amazingly easy to dominate. Within 3 years I had enough money and always had enough money to dominate the league. From 65-85 I won 18 division/league titles, and made 12 World Series appearances.

Nothing like a good, realistic baseball sim......:rolleyes:

[Desmond]

Nothing like a good, realistic baseball sim......:rolleyes:

I agree with you to a point. However I would liken it to the Yankees/Red Sox dominance in the AL East right now. I simply had the benefit of the market and made no stupid decisions, as a result I was able to have a payroll much higher than my competitors, SF came close to me in both financials and standings.

Also, it isn't like that could be edited. If I had lowered my market or whatever when I first started the game, to make me closer to the rest of the league I can guarantee it wouldn't have been that easy.

On the other hand I very much look forward to starting a career as a lesser NL team in that same time frame and engaging in the chase.

But I absolutely see your point.

[Yellow5]

I was being an ass. Check out the mogul website and see if Clay is still patching this version.

:) He posted an "Unofficial Patch" yesterday and has been patching the game almost weekly since the release.

[Terps]

Unofficial Patch Version 9.35
<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->1) Injured pitchers no longer allowed as relievers.
2) Contract lengths reduced (and setting added to League Options).
3) Crash fixed when Fantasy Draft ends with 'Sortable Stats' Dialog open.
4) Payroll Budgets increased for 'Equalize Cities' setting.

Will take a closer look at the Defensive Substitution Dialog tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Looks like #4 fixes the need to give low payroll teams cash. #2 was annoying because in the demo season I played, most players wanted 5 or 6 year deals.

[MizzouRah]

:) He posted an "Unofficial Patch" yesterday and has been patching the game almost weekly since the release.

That's good for Gararil then!

[Galaril]

That's good for Gararil then!


Yeah. Only problem I am being pulled by to forces my love of baseball and soccer. I am itching to buy the FM game. I would buy both but my wife would divorce me. I will wait and see the reviews of headcoach. But, I might pull the trigger and get BM anyways. :)

[MizzouRah]

If you love soccer, there's no choice.. FM all the way.

[James.Gattis]

I will give this caveat however. When I took over the Mets it was amazingly easy to dominate. Within 3 years I had enough money and always had enough money to dominate the league. From 65-85 I won 18 division/league titles, and made 12 World Series appearances. My rotation for a long time included Gibson, Carlton, Marichal & Koosman. Carlton won over 400 games for me and the career in the end became a quest to try and get him to Cy Youngs record, but alas it fell short.There are 4 ai difficulty levels. Did you try on the hardest? I started on 'Coach' (Level 2) and after somewhat dominating (but not as much as you) I moved up to Manager (level 3).

[Galaril]

I came across this on the Baseball Mogul Forums, pretty impressive:

http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=107020

[Eaglesfan27]

Edit: Nevermind, I was blind. Found the answer to my question in their FAQ.

[jbmagic]

Ouch. That is not good. I'm glad I didn't buy last night (I was very close a few times.) Is this something that is being looked at in a patch?


How come you ended up getting it?

You should try out Puresim 2007. Its very solid so far. Really having fun with it.

[Galaril]

How come you ended up getting it?

You should try out Puresim 2007. Its very solid so far. Really having fun with it.


Puresim is really a historical sim.IMHO. BM is great for current era.

[jbmagic]

Puresim is really a historical sim.IMHO. BM is great for current era.


Shaun did a pretty good job on the fictional play on puresim 2007 too.

The only thing lacking is real MLB roster for this season so far. But the fictional and historical play been pretty fun so far.

[RedKingGold]

OOTP 6.5 is still pretty good too. Having fun with my Fightin's

[DaddyTorgo]

so for anyone who has BM, what is the largest issue still remaining to be tackled by Clay? I picked the demo back up and had a huge blast running a couple quick half-seasons and am seriously thinking I could get $20 worth of enjoyment out of it, just wanted to know what the major problem with it still is...

[JPhillips]

Its definetely worth twenty bucks, but it isn't a very good simulation. Its more of a beer & pretzels game that offers a lot of fun without worrying about exact realism.

Some of my problems:

Prospects don't develop and progress to the majors well. They either get brought up too soon or are allowed to linger in low minors while they develop completely.

Players performance varies too much from year to year. Its not unusual to see a pitcher win twenty games and the next year have a plus 6 era. Batters seem to do better, but average really bounces around a lot as well.

The financials for small market teams are so screwed up that half of the teams almost can't be played.

Having no compensatory picks in a baseball sim kills small market teams.

Contract demands are too closely based to the last season's performance.

The pitcher power ratings are generally stuck too low.

All that being said I've played it far more than OOTP2006. Its a lot of fun, but you just have to except its shortcomings.

[John Galt]

The board ate my longer reply, but I'll offer this summary:

Biggest problem: Bad AI advancement through minors (too fast or too slow).

I don't think the small market problems are bad anymore. Only TB was screwy the last time I checked and you can fix that manually. Playing small market teams is a challenge without revenue sharing and compensatory picks, but I think that makes it more fun (like difficulty levels).

Overall, I think it is definitely worth $20 and recommend the game.

[Barkeep49]

Agreed with most of JPhillip's points, though I do feel that most teams are playable.

Also, the computer will never offer you a realistic trade. However, it won't be fleeced either when you use the trading block so it's not like I feel trading is broken, just the trades you recieve unprompted from the computer are going to be jokes of a trade.

[Eaglesfan27]

The board ate my longer reply, but I'll offer this summary:

Biggest problem: Bad AI advancement through minors (too fast or too slow).

I don't think the small market problems are bad anymore. Only TB was screwy the last time I checked and you can fix that manually. Playing small market teams is a challenge without revenue sharing and compensatory picks, but I think that makes it more fun (like difficulty levels).

Overall, I think it is definitely worth $20 and recommend the game.

Completely agree. The Minor League Advancement of AI controlled teams is my biggest gripe with the game, but it has already given me many hours of enjoyment and is well worth the price IMO.

[DaddyTorgo]

The board ate my longer reply, but I'll offer this summary:

Biggest problem: Bad AI advancement through minors (too fast or too slow).

I don't think the small market problems are bad anymore. Only TB was screwy the last time I checked and you can fix that manually. Playing small market teams is a challenge without revenue sharing and compensatory picks, but I think that makes it more fun (like difficulty levels).

Overall, I think it is definitely worth $20 and recommend the game.

cool. thanks JG. I think I can deal with bad AI advancement through minors for now and hopefully that will be something that Clay is looking at moving forwards, and if not it's still something that I at least can fix manually on my team. I played out a couple years with a ton of trades and want to pay the $20 now to see how those trades would pan out (1 year as the Nationals and 1 as the Red Sox). My Nats ended up with a ton of cash under budget going into FA (55 million or so) so I signed Mark Prior, Miggy Cabrera, Wily Mo Pena and Roy Oswalt, after making trades for Mauer, Kubel, Delmon Young, Ryan Zimmerman, and a bunch of other young guys.

[amdaily]

One of the lastest unofficial patches has made alot of progress in making sure the AI doesn't call up an A or Rookie ball player the majors. The retirement algorithm also seems to get upgraded with every new patch, which is also helping the problem (as to many useless vets were cloggeing up rosters spots before).

But yes, easily worth the $20 at this point.

[Galaril]

Bought it some and played a couple of single seasons I just finished the free agency and draft for the following season and bam I go to my roster and see the stats for last season are not correct ....at all. Example shilling was 10-12 4.10 era now it says he was 8-8 with a 3.23 era. Anotehr exampel to show how hosed this looks coco crisp was 265 avg 10 HRs now it says he was 300 avg with 16 HRs. I know I could post a something in the tech support for it on the games board but between this and especially OOTP I am sick of beta testing. Game now off hard drive my time is too limited to try to figure out why this did this. Back to Titan Quest and Oblivion.

[jbmagic]

Bought it some and played a couple of single seasons I just finished the free agency and draft for the following season and bam I go to my roster and see the stats for last season are not correct ....at all. Example shilling was 10-12 4.10 era now it says he was 8-8 with a 3.23 era. Anotehr exampel to show how hosed this looks coco crisp was 265 avg 10 HRs now it says he was 300 avg with 16 HRs. I know I could post a something in the tech support for it on the games board but between this and especially OOTP I am sick of beta testing. Game now off hard drive my time is too limited to try to figure out why this did this. Back to Titan Quest and Oblivion.

Try Puresim. Its very solid at version 1.24.

I think the AI is better on puresim than ootp and baseball mogul.

[DaddyTorgo]

Bought it some and played a couple of single seasons I just finished the free agency and draft for the following season and bam I go to my roster and see the stats for last season are not correct ....at all. Example shilling was 10-12 4.10 era now it says he was 8-8 with a 3.23 era. Anotehr exampel to show how hosed this looks coco crisp was 265 avg 10 HRs now it says he was 300 avg with 16 HRs. I know I could post a something in the tech support for it on the games board but between this and especially OOTP I am sick of beta testing. Game now off hard drive my time is too limited to try to figure out why this did this. Back to Titan Quest and Oblivion.

did you make sure to patch it galaril? cuz that sounds very troubling...

[Barkeep49]

I agree that Galaril's post is very troubling and something I had not noticed in approximately 40 seasons of play.

[amdaily]

If he's that quick to delete the entire game, then it was probably a hastily made user error that resulted in the stat problem. I've personally simmed thousands of seasons and never seen such a thing occur, neither has anyone on the BM forums.

[EagleFan]

I have to say that it is a blast to play, especially with the historic database. There are still a few things that bug me but I definitely get the 20 dollars entertainment out of it. I have generally disliked the BM series too so this is saying something that I am entertained by it.

[Deattribution]

Bought it some and played a couple of single seasons I just finished the free agency and draft for the following season and bam I go to my roster and see the stats for last season are not correct ....at all. Example shilling was 10-12 4.10 era now it says he was 8-8 with a 3.23 era. Anotehr exampel to show how hosed this looks coco crisp was 265 avg 10 HRs now it says he was 300 avg with 16 HRs. I know I could post a something in the tech support for it on the games board but between this and especially OOTP I am sick of beta testing. Game now off hard drive my time is too limited to try to figure out why this did this. Back to Titan Quest and Oblivion.

You sure you weren't looking at last seasons stats, then looking at this seasons stats or vice versa?

It's rather easy to look at say the depth chart and not have them match up with the player cards for that year if you accidently have it marked for last years stats and you're looking at this year on the card.

[Galaril]

You sure you weren't looking at last seasons stats, then looking at this seasons stats or vice versa?

It's rather easy to look at say the depth chart and not have them match up with the player cards for that year if you accidently have it marked for last years stats and you're looking at this year on the card.


Not sure. It could of been my error or hastiness.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Well, Circuit City has a buy one/get one free deal on games $19.99 and under, so I grabbed Baseball Mogul 2007 as half of a set. For $10 I couldn't resist.

[Galaril]

I got an email noting that Baseball Mogul 07 new official and final patch for 07 is release and the list of fixes are very impressive. I have been pretty hard on Clay's game but like Shaun/Puresim they have worked very hard to continually put out a pretty good initial release and have continued throughout the year with very substantual patches and added features.
The gap between OOTP and Mogl and puresim has decreased agreat deal and the top spot is up for grabs next season. It ought to push OOTP somewhat (I hope) and make for some great baseball games next spring. Anyways, here are the fixes since the last official patch alot of these issues are minor but still in totality quite annoying:

Changes in the 9.44 series of unofficial patches

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unofficial Patch: Version 9.44
1) Runs and Earned Runs corrected for minor league pitching stats
2) Bug fixed where some pitch ratings (for batters) showed '-75'
3) GB/FB changed to GB% (ground ball percent) and fixed
4) Balk, Wild Pitch and Pickoff rates fixed
5) 'Defense' rating in Sortable Stats shows rating at the position selected in 'Fielding Stats'
6) Game properly ends on passed ball or wild pitch that scores winning run
7) Batter now gets an RBI when he stretches a triple into an inside-the-park homer
8) Infielders always tries to prevent winning run scoring from third
9) CPU-controlled pitchers no longer start on consecutive days

The following should also be fixed since 9.44:

1) RBI credited when runner goes an extra base and scores
2) The following bugs fixed (that had been introduced in 9.44):

1. '1-1-1' Double Play in Play-By-Play
2. All players listed as 'P' in box score (except DH)
3. HTML link text eliminated from Play-By-Play Screen

Changes since 9.44A:

1) Crash fixed when Loading Historical Rookies
2) 'PH' and 'PR' added to HTML Box Scores
3a) CG, GB, WP and SF added to Player Editor
3b) Lefty/righty tendencies added to Player Editor (for Contact & Power ratings)
4) Auto-Sort AI interchanges fielders more. For example, the AI will now put an 80-rated LF in RF instead of a 65-rated RF.
5) 'Trade Frequency' added to League Options. This affects how often computer-controlled teams trade with EACH OTHER.
6) Improved AI for trades offered by computer teams.
7a) Endurance adjusted upwards for power pitchers to reflect their higher pitch counts
7b) Pitcher fatigue engine tweaked for more realistic performance after 100+ pitches thrown
8a) Hit & Run fix: Runner on third doesn't go with the pitch
8b) Hit & Run: Hole created when 2B/SS covers 2nd base
9) "Give Days Off" added to League Editor
10) Better running/infield AI
11) Ball trajectory tweaked for more accurate hit and out locations
12) Earned Run and Win/Loss code re-written (except for the 2nd half of MLB rule 10.18(g) -- which I will probably address in next patch)

Unofficial Patch: Version 9.44C
1) Winning and losing pitchers should now be correctly recorded
2) Amount of playing out-of-position reduced in lineup AI
3) Player fatigue (for position players) noted in the written scouting report

Changes in Version 9.44D:

1. Bug fixed: Moving players in Defensive Substitution Dialog changes game outs
2. Bug fixed: Retired players lost after save/resume/sim
3. Player Editor: tab order updated
4. Pitch velocity nudged down slightly for rookies
5. Streak/slump sentences added to batter scouting reports
6. League abbreviation added to transaction lists
7. Lefty/righty pinch-hit AI improved
8. Gold gloves awarded to 3 outfielders (not always LF, CF, RF)
9. League Options: "Popups for Retiring Players" checkbox added
10. Cleveland 'Naps' become 'Indians' in 1915

Changes in Version 9.44E (since Version 9.44D):

1. Stats corrected in streak/slump sentences
2. Decision total fixed in Game Log
3. ".txt" box scores can now be opened from within Mogul (instead of trying to open an HTML file)
4. Links disabled in HTML Box Scores and Recaps; Load_Awards() only called for NEW games
5. Free Agents assigned to minor league team after signing by user
6. 'Balance Cash' button fixed (and 'Cash' offers in Trading Block)
7. Bug Fix: Defensive substitute leads to a quote such as "Mike Lowell came in to play third base for two RBIs"
8. Bug Fix: "Grounded out to pitcher" shown in Play-By-Play after defensive substitutions
9. Bug fix: Pinch-hitting for pitcher in Play-By-Play sometimes shows wrong team in Pinch Hitter dialog
10. Bug Fix: "The pitcher slot is due up Ordinal error: 0 next inning." (DH leagues only)

Changes in Version 9.44F (since Version 9.44E):

1. Fixed PREDICTED stats for historical players (e.g. 500 G and 2400 PA)
2. Frequency of trade offers from CPU reduced
3. "Underhand" changed to "Submarine"
4. 'Overall' and 'Peak' ratings fixed in Player Editor
5. Opening Day pitching rotation fixed

Changes in Version 9.44G (since Version 9.44F):

1. Some text display bugs fixed in Defensive Subsitution Dialog
2. Extra substitution listings eliminated after a defensive sub
3. 'Undo' button added to Play-By-Play Dialogs (Relief Pitcher, Defensive Substitution, Pinch Hitter/Runner)
4. Fielding totals fixed in Scouting Report
5. Increased runner advancement to 3B on a grounder to the right side
6. Reduced computer teams signing multiple players at same position
7. '1-1-3' double play eliminated
8. Arizona catcher is much less popular (no longer 'friend to all')

Changes in Version 9.44H (since Version 9.44G):

1. Screwy double plays (e.g. '3-12-71') fixed [bug introduced in 9.44G]
2. In-game 'Box Score' and 'Recap' buttons work, even if HTML output is selected
3. Shuffled the pitch ratings so a pitcher's fastball is listed first (if he has one)
4. Runs counted as unearned when current play should have been 3rd out of inning
5. Pinch hitters only credited with a game on DEFENSE if they stay in the field for one batter
6. Bunter doesn't square around on an intentional walk
7. Player Editor rating discrepancies fixed
8. Season length can be set to any value from 140 to 162 games
9. 4-5-3 DPs severely reduced

Changes since 9.44H:

1. Birth city (and some other stats) now shown for retired players.
2. 'Vitals' tab shows award totals.
3. '1-run' and 'Extra Inning' records fixed on Standings Page.
4. Stolen Bases aren't credited when one runner is out in a double/triple steal -- per baseball rule 10.08(d).

[Ragone]

But, is joey long back in the game?

[amdaily]

Seems like the unofficial patches won't stop either, everything from here on out is part of an open beta for 2008.

[DaddyTorgo]

Seems like the unofficial patches won't stop either, everything from here on out is part of an open beta for 2008.


which IMHO is an awesome thing.

[MizzouRah]

Anyone still playing this?

I had a terrible taste in my mouth last year, but I've still followed this year's progress and I'm finding OOTP too tedius right now just for some quick MLB fun. Puresim hasn't motivated me either, so for $20 I was wondering how this game is in its current state?

With the playoffs right now, I'm needing some sort of MLB fix and after re-reading this thread, maybe I should give mogul a shot again.

[jbmagic]

Anyone still playing this?

I had a terrible taste in my mouth last year, but I've still followed this year's progress and I'm finding OOTP too tedius right now just for some quick MLB fun. Puresim hasn't motivated me either, so for $20 I was wondering how this game is in its current state?

With the playoffs right now, I'm needing some sort of MLB fix and after re-reading this thread, maybe I should give mogul a shot again.


Puresim is a lot better than baseball mogul.

What you don't like about puresim?

[heybrad]

What you don't like about puresim?
Yea, you not like AI?

[jbmagic]

Yea, you not like AI?

Actually the AI is pretty solid on current version of Puresim.

[Barkeep49]

I am someone who focuses much more on the GM aspects of a sim. Being a manager/coach has never interested me in a text sim. I want to set the roster and let the coach deal with the other stuff. And I have to say I had a great deal of fun with BM this year as it presented realistic enough events and I was able to play through seasons quickly, while spending time on the areas I enjoy. It's not a great game but it is a $20 game I think.

[stevew]

I saw BM2007 clearenced at target for 4.98 the other day. But I resisted, cause the ai not as good as puresim.

[GoldenEagle]

I also paid $5 for it at Target. Did I get ripped?

[DaddyTorgo]

Anyone still playing this?

I had a terrible taste in my mouth last year, but I've still followed this year's progress and I'm finding OOTP too tedius right now just for some quick MLB fun. Puresim hasn't motivated me either, so for $20 I was wondering how this game is in its current state?

With the playoffs right now, I'm needing some sort of MLB fix and after re-reading this thread, maybe I should give mogul a shot again.

i love this game for what it gives me the ability to do: fire it up for an hour when I have the itch and power through a season and the FA market and draft and then play a game or 4. I havn't honestly dug into it as far as playing a ton of seasons to check accuracy (i think the game i've spent the most time on is only in 2013 or something) but for what it is it's working great for me.

[Shkspr]

Baseball Mogul 2007 is text-sim Freecell.

[MizzouRah]

Ai is crappy..just kidding, I might get this one

[Barkeep49]

Baseball Mogul 2007 is text-sim Freecell.
This might be a very good analogy.

[Galaril]

Puresim is a lot better than baseball mogul.

What you don't like about puresim?

Loved the last few versions of Puresim but the fact no one created a 2006 MLB mod file for the game just killed my interest in it . Greta game for historical gamers not for real MLB current though.IMHO.

[Shkspr]

This might be a very good analogy.

That's why I made it. :P

The strengths of BB are that you can jump in with no refresher course necessary on players, it's exceptionally easy to focus in on the talent you want to acquire, and the sim engine lends itself to near-instant results. It is a game that offers enjoyment with a little thought but no study. Particularly at an entry price under $20, it is in my mind quite comparable to the gratification on finds from the offerings at Reflexive or Popcap.

The weaknesses of BB parallel the strengths, especially on a forum where the idea of studying your universe makes us salivate. Also keep in mind that there's frequently a damn good reason Reflexive games run under $20.

[jbmagic]

Ai is crappy..just kidding, I might get this one

For God sake, don't fall for the trap again. Don't cave in you will regret it.

You got burn last time.

[RedKingGold]

You got burn last time.

I know. I had to buy the cream last time to get rid of it.

[laser]

Two questions on this game:

1. Can I play with fictional players?

2. Can I select how many teams I want to play with or must it be the current major league configuration?

Thanks

[rjolley]

Baseball Mogul is what it's always been...a game to pick up quickly and fly through seasons. For $20 or less, it's a fun diversion that you can have running while at work since it doesn't need to take over your screen and can hide really easily.

[Pumpy Tudors]

If my local Target has this game for under $5.00, I almost have to buy it. I have Puresim and like it OK, but a "text-sim Freecell" game is more my speed right now. For an incredibly low price, I don't think I can go wrong.

[MizzouRah]

I'd take it for $5.

[MizzouRah]

I'm not afraid to call things like I see them and after last year's disappointment in BB Mogul, I finally bought 07 and after dowloading some current rosters and facepacks, so far I'm really liking this version. I'm sure the play by play graphic will get old after awhile, but right now it's fun to watch meaningful games. :)

One thing I've always liked about BBM is the speed and it doesn't disappoint here.

I'm still miffed for buying last year's version, but I've moved on and I'd say if you're on the fence, this one is worth buying for some quick-deep-baseball fun.

[Bee]

I'm not afraid to call things like I see them and after last year's disappointment in BB Mogul, I finally bought 07 and after dowloading some current rosters and facepacks, so far I'm really liking this version. I'm sure the play by play graphic will get old after awhile, but right now it's fun to watch meaningful games. :)

One thing I've always liked about BBM is the speed and it doesn't disappoint here.

I'm still miffed for buying last year's version, but I've moved on and I'd say if you're on the fence, this one is worth buying for some quick-deep-baseball fun.

I heard puresim better.

[jbmagic]

I'm not afraid to call things like I see them and after last year's disappointment in BB Mogul, I finally bought 07 and after dowloading some current rosters and facepacks, so far I'm really liking this version. I'm sure the play by play graphic will get old after awhile, but right now it's fun to watch meaningful games. :)

One thing I've always liked about BBM is the speed and it doesn't disappoint here.

I'm still miffed for buying last year's version, but I've moved on and I'd say if you're on the fence, this one is worth buying for some quick-deep-baseball fun.

Why do you like it more than Puresim 2007?

There no way you can say the AI is better on BBM than puresim 2007.

[GoldenEagle]

I heard puresim better.

My Oakland raiders looking great in preseason

[Deattribution]

The AI is better on BBM than puresim 2007. (just to get that over with)

[stevew]

No, i heard puresim better.

[MizzouRah]

I don't care for Puresim, for some reason I just can't get into that game.

To each their own JB, play whatever you want and I'll do the same.