WTF Vick a Pro-Bowler(that means All Star in Football)?

[stevew]

This is like Jeter winning a gold glove. Geez.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/nfc_roster
http://www.nfl.com/probowl/afc_roster

[stevew]

For the record, I know the elite Qb's are in the AFC. But if Trotter can go last year for like 5-6 solid games, Brad Johnson should have gotten a nod. Or Bledsoe who is having a fairly decent season. Or even Eli. But not the guy who is 13th in the conference in passer rating.

[kcchief19]

Eh ... he's borderline. This wasn't his best year, but he's not far off. It's a bad year for NFC quarterbacks. After Hasselbeck and Delhomme, there's a whole hodge podge of mediocrity. Vick's in that mix with Drew Bledsoe and Mark Brunnell. I think Vick's more deserving of the pro-bowl than say Chris Simms or Kurt Warner or someone who is hurt like Bulger.

edited: Steve changed from All-Pro to Pro Bowl ;)

[Surtt]

Warrick Dunn, TB ???

[miami_fan]

At first glance, it looks like the voting was pretty accurate this year........well besides Vick. Is it still a third for the fans and two thirds for the players?

[kcchief19]

For the record, I know the elite Qb's are in the AFC. But if Trotter can go last year for like 5-6 solid games, Brad Johnson should have gotten a nod. Or Bledsoe who is having a fairly decent season. Or even Eli. But not the guy who is 13th in the conference in passer rating.I think Johnson didn't play enough to win his way on, and let's face it he hasn't been exactly a star, just a caretaker. Eli is in that muck group with me -- he has a slightly better passer rating (he's 10th).

Interesting that Eli won the fan voting but didn't even make the team. Wow.

[miami_fan]

Nice to see Larry Johnson rewarded for his performance in the year that he actually performed well, instead of having to wait a year

[stevew]

Before last week, Johnson was 6-1 as a starter. All he does is win. Stats don't matter.

[MacroGuru]

I was almost ready to cheer, that the Lions didn't get anyone on...but Rogers.....Oh well....LOL...no one on the pro-bowl might have helped get Millen fired.

[stevew]

Nice to see Larry Johnson rewarded for his performance in the year that he actually performed well, instead of having to wait a year

Yeah, Johnson definately pushed himself into the elite this year.

[PackerFanatic]

I would have picked Manning over Vick.

[albionmoonlight]

Whether or not Vick is the third best QB in the NFC (a matter up for debate), I think that he belongs in the Pro Bowl. To me, the Pro Bowl is ~1/2 who played the best and ~1/2 who the fans want to see.

And Vick is a guy that people want to see. Personally, I love watching him play.

[sovereignstar]

how the fuck is Pat Williams not in there?

[JonInMiddleGA]

how the fuck is Pat Williams not in there?

Who the fuck is Pat Williams?

[sovereignstar]

Who the fuck is Pat Williams?

A guy that should be in the Pro Bowl.

[Critch]

Vick is good in Madden, and that's all that really matters.

[JonInMiddleGA]

A guy that should be in the Pro Bowl.

Cool, thanks.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Who the fuck is Pat Williams?
Maybe he means the senior executive vice president (formerly general manager) of the Orlando Magic. One of my favorite quotes of Williams' was "We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. As general manager, I just can't figure out where else to play."

[stevew]

Maybe he means the senior executive vice president (formerly general manager) of the Orlando Magic. One of my favorite quotes of Williams' was "We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. As general manager, I just can't figure out where else to play."


Didnt he adopt like 10-30 kids as well?

[BishopMVP]

Manning is very overrated. He is not a Pro Bowl caliber QB, even with the weak NFC field. In addition to Hasselbeck and Delhomme, I'd take Brunell, Bledsoe, Favre, Vick, Brooks even Bulger or Kurt Warner over him if given the same supporting cast. He'll probably develop into a very good QB, but right now the only thing saving him from killing his team are the ridiculously athletic WR's that catch or tip many an errant throw. Having the NFC's 2nd best RB doesn't hurt either.

But yeah, this year 5 of the 6 best QB's are in the AFC.

[stevew]

Whether or not Vick is the third best QB in the NFC (a matter up for debate), I think that he belongs in the Pro Bowl. To me, the Pro Bowl is ~1/2 who played the best and ~1/2 who the fans want to see.

And Vick is a guy that people want to see. Personally, I love watching him play.


The fans voted Eli in as their favorite, but it only counts for 1/3 of the vote total.

[PackerFanatic]

As much of a Packer fan as I am, I would not have picked Favre. 24 INTs with a shitty receiving core and having made quite a few bad decisions isn't a Pro Bowl here. Brooks the same way, really...too many INTs on a sub-par team...Bulger was hurt too much...and Warner was benched.

[wishbone]

You don't dare a pro-bowl QB to throw the ball:

From: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/scorecard/12/21/truth.rumors.nfl/index.html

Falcons tight end Alge Crumpler did not single out coaching decisions, schemes, particular players or positions for the team's lack of success in recent losses to Carolina and Chicago. However, he said something has to change because opponents have figured out that they can stack the interior with eight or nine players, on run and pass situations, because the Falcons have not successfully countered.
-- Atlanta Journal-Constitution

[Fonzie]

Am I the only one who read this thread title as "Vick is a Professional Bowler?"

[Solecismic]

If the NFL were grade school, this is one of those cases where the league would go up to the AFC and ask for a couple of volunteers to quarterback for the NFC. Hey, Brees, Plummer, do you mind switching sides for this little scrimmage?

Look at the NFC right now. How many of the 16 quarterbacks who started the season are still starting? Six. I think that number is 13 on the AFC side.

[Raiders Army]

I think Bledsoe did a much better job this season than Vick, last week notwithstanding.

[Abe Sargent]

How does John Henderson not make the list when he outplayed even Stroud this year by all accounts?

-Anxiety

[jamesUMD]

Vick, in my opinion invalidates the credibility of the whole vote. Just plain silly. They should have just selected 2 qb's instead of him as the 3rd.

[Buccaneer]

Good f'n grief. Vick was touted as a PB in previous seasons because he wins games. Now that he loses games (or that other QBs win more games), that doesn't matter anymore. You really have to be believe that it's more about marketing, hype and "wanting him to succeed because of all of the investments made" than actual performance.

[Ksyrup]

This would be understandable if he was getting voted in/selected as an old-timer like Cal Ripken or something, but he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt during what is supposed to be his best years. Crap decision.

[mtolson]

Warrick Dunn, TB ???

Are you saying Warrick should not have made it ?

[Eaglesfan27]

Are you saying Warrick should not have made it ?
I think he is saying Dunn hasn't been with Tampa Bay for a few years ;)

[Easy Mac]

Good f'n grief. Vick was touted as a PB in previous seasons because he wins games. Now that he loses games (or that other QBs win more games), that doesn't matter anymore. You really have to be believe that it's more about marketing, hype and "wanting him to succeed because of all of the investments made" than actual performance.
Oh, I always just assumed it was a race thing.

[Rizon]

Doesn't really matter. Watching the Pro-Bowl is like watching your best guy friend fuck himself in the ass with Hoover vacuum extension.

[Buccaneer]

Oh, I always just assumed it was a race thing.
Actually, I think it's more of a regional thing. QBs like him "grow on trees" in that region which is why he is (and would be) far more popular and given more latitude than, say, Chris Chandler (who has won more NFC Championships for Atlanta). I remember the transition season between Chandler and Vick and recall that the calls (as reported by so-called national sportswriters) to get Vick in from fans where somewhat divided along racial lines. Nothing really wrong with that because it's what they wanted to see and wanted to believe in, I think.

[Ben E Lou]

QBs like him "grow on trees" in that region If you're referring to my comment about this, then you're really even more clueless about football than I thought you were (and I already thought you to be pretty clueless about it.)

[Buccaneer]

Here the quote "and it should be very easy to find some kid from Florida or Georgia who runs a 4.55-4.65 and played QB in high school in an option attack. Those kids grow on trees down here."

While Vick did not run the option in HS, I do remember he was interested in going to SU because of Coach P's favored offense scheme being the option-pass attack.

[Ben E Lou]

Here the quote "and it should be very easy to find some kid from Florida or Georgia who runs a 4.55-4.65 and played QB in high school in an option attack. Those kids grow on trees down here."

While Vick did not run the option in HS, I do remember he was interested in going to SU because of Coach P's favored offense scheme being the option-pass attack.1. one-star recruits
2. weak arms. I've seen kids run the Wing-T who can't throw a 20-yard spiral.
3. 40 time.

You completely and utterly mis-applied that comment. It doesn't remotely fit.

[Buccaneer]

Ok, my mis-interpretation. I never did found out why Vick would be considered one of the blackest players in the NFL. Do you think he's a Pro Bowler this season?

[JonInMiddleGA]

You really have to be believe that it's more about marketing, hype and "wanting him to succeed because of all of the investments made" than actual performance.

Well DUH !

That's what ALL pro sports are about ultimately: return on investment (be that tangible or intangible return). Vick goes to the Pro Bowl because he's the 3rd best quarterback overall in the NFC.

[Buccaneer]

Well DUH !

That's what ALL pro sports are about ultimately: return on investment (be that tangible or intangible return). Vick goes to the Pro Bowl because he's the 3rd best quarterback overall in the NFC.
That's what I don't get. He's 13th in the NFC in passing ratings, 9th in TD passes, and 5th or 6th in winning pct.

[terpkristin]

Can I just say right now that for the longest time while glancing at this thread title all evening (since I first came to FOFC tonight), I thought this was about Vick = Pro Bowler. As in professional bowling. I need to learn to stop smoking the bad stuff. ;)

/tk

[Ben E Lou]

Ok, my mis-interpretation. I never did found out why Vick would be considered one of the blackest players in the NFL. Do you think he's a Pro Bowler this season?I still haven't figured out the purpose of the Pro Bowl, quite honestly. It makes NO sense to have an all-star game in football, so why anyone cares is beyond me to begin with. Baseball and basketball work in an "all-star" environment, but not football. If the purpose is to market the league, then sure he does. He's one of the most marketable guys out there. If it is to reward steallar performances, then no. (But as has been mentioned, there aren't three NFC QB's with stellar performances to put out there to begin with...) Honestly, my best guess is that the Pro Bowl is more about marketing the league than about rewarding performances. Either way, I won't be watching yet again this year.

Yeah, it'd take a while to explain my comment about Vick vs. McNabb (and it would probably offend like 80% of the people around here...not that I care about that though), and I'd rather test the next BBCF patch than spend a half hour or so on one post, but the short version is this: It is "easy" to accuse Donovan of selling out. He smiles a lot. He doesn't run any more. He's amiable. He "says the right things" in interviews. Vick is much "blacker," if you will. He wears cornrows. He's Ron Mexico. He lashed out at the press this year. He plays playground-style a good bit.

[Ben E Lou]

That's what I don't get. He's 13th in the NFC in passing ratings, 9th in TD passes, and 5th or 6th in winning pct.Jon said OVERALL. He's all of that, but 1st (by a long shot) in marketability, and as I said, my best guess is that that counts for a lot in this "game."

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's what I don't get. He's 13th in the NFC in passing ratings, 9th in TD passes, and 5th or 6th in winning pct.

And he's still more compelling to watch & generates more interest overall the the other 12, 8, or 4/5.

[Buccaneer]

And if course, cbs.sportsline.com have had the "cover" story up for a while on "Vick: Pass or Fail". I think this what gets some folks that such a medicore performing QB gets headline press at the expense of others. No doubt he is 1st in marketing and that means a lot.

Here's an answer to the question, "Will Michael Vick ever be a consistent NFL quarterback? "

He already is. Last year he threw 14 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. This year he's at 13 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. I don't know how much more consistent you can be than that. If the question is: Will he become an elite NFL quarterback? I think the answer is no. He's too inaccurate. There's no question the guy is exciting, elusive and dangerous with the ball in his hands, but he's feared more for his running than his passing. Keep him in the pocket, as Philadelphia did in last year's conference title game, and you neutralize him. If Vick is to be considered a top-shelf quarterback he must improve his accuracy, and I don't see that happening. He hit 56 percent of his passes last year; he's hit 54 this season. But this is what I like less: He's the league's 16th-ranked quarterback on third downs and its 34th-rated passer in fourth quarters. Case closed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Vick is much "blacker," if you will. He wears cornrows. He's Ron Mexico. He lashed out at the press this year. He plays playground-style a good bit.

I don't blame you for preferring some quality gaming time over the discussion, so I'll try to be brief & won't be anticipating any response any time soon, but ... when you referenced this previously, and now that you've expanded on it a little, I'm just a little surprised.

We seem to be on a similar wavelength about a goodly number of things when it comes to how stuff is percieved racially, but this time ... wow. I see where you're coming from but for the past couple of years I've thought of Vick as far & away the most "race-neutral" athlete in Atlanta/Georgia history. Outside of a few amateur bloggers who hit the ajc.com site, this guy is about as universally popular around here as any athlete I can remember since at least Herschel Walker. Young black dudes love Vick, middle-aged white guys love Vick, heck even dried up old white women seem to like to watch the guy play.
And I don't think (given the white guy reaction to stuff like the street-ball NBA) he's being perceived by them as one of the "blackest" players in the league, not by a long shot.

It brings up an interesting point about how he's been marketed though -- is he perhaps a case where he's perceived very differently by different demographics & yet by & large they all still have a favorable perception. That's not an easy trick to pull off (ask McDonald's, among others, over the past couple of years) but I'm starting to think that may be the case with Vick.
Maybe people see him how they want to see him & retain only what suits their wants & needs?

[Buccaneer]

Maybe people see him how they want to see him & retain only what suits their wants & needs?
Yes. Still want the Bolts glad they didn't draft him. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think this what gets some folks that such a medicore performing QB gets headline press at the expense of others.

But I believe that's hitting at the situation pretty well -- he isn't getting those headlines at the expense of others in the NFL. In the context of "front page sports" (as opposed to the front of the football section) if Vick doesn't get the headline someone else from another sport is more likely to get them, not any/many of those QB's with whatever better stat than Vick.

Not to pick on anybody but just to take an example at random: Mark Brunell isn't exactly the most interesting, most compelling, most headline-grabbing guy in the world. Bledsoe is pretty much too old to be extremely marketable at this point & there's only so much you can do with Peyton's kid brother right now.

[cthomer5000]

Manning is very overrated. He is not a Pro Bowl caliber QB, even with the weak NFC field.
Having watched him every week, this is my basic take on him:

-Throws an extremely accurate deep ball. (i mean, he throws some crazy accurate 40+ yard passes)
-Has an incredible cool under pressure (honestly, he seems more "oblivious" than "cool," but whatever works for ya...)
-Can get into some serious funky stretches (see the end of the Eagles game...it was ugly).

Yeah, I agree he's probably not a Pro-Bowl QB yet, but I think he definitely has the goods, he just needs to improve his intermediate accuracy. He's a bit of a mad bomber at the moment.

[Buccaneer]

But I believe that's hitting at the situation pretty well -- he isn't getting those headlines at the expense of others in the NFL. In the context of "front page sports" (as opposed to the front of the football section) if Vick doesn't get the headline someone else from another sport is more likely to get them, not any/many of those QB's with whatever better stat than Vick.

Not to pick on anybody but just to take an example at random: Mark Brunell isn't exactly the most interesting, most compelling, most headline-grabbing guy in the world. Bledsoe is pretty much too old to be extremely marketable at this point & there's only so much you can do with Peyton's kid brother right now.
Sounds like the Tiger Woods story but at least he has earned the privilege of being the most marketable, if that makes any sense (which probably doesn't).

[Ben E Lou]

I don't blame you for preferring some quality gaming time over the discussion, so I'll try to be brief & won't be anticipating any response any time soon, but ... when you referenced this previously, and now that you've expanded on it a little, I'm just a little surprised.

We seem to be on a similar wavelength about a goodly number of things when it comes to how stuff is percieved racially, but this time ... wow. I see where you're coming from but for the past couple of years I've thought of Vick as far & away the most "race-neutral" athlete in Atlanta/Georgia history. Outside of a few amateur bloggers who hit the ajc.com site, this guy is about as universally popular around here as any athlete I can remember since at least Herschel Walker. Young black dudes love Vick, middle-aged white guys love Vick, heck even dried up old white women seem to like to watch the guy play.
And I don't think (given the white guy reaction to stuff like the street-ball NBA) he's being perceived by them as one of the "blackest" players in the league, not by a long shot.

It brings up an interesting point about how he's been marketed though -- is he perhaps a case where he's perceived very differently by different demographics & yet by & large they all still have a favorable perception. That's not an easy trick to pull off (ask McDonald's, among others, over the past couple of years) but I'm starting to think that may be the case with Vick.
Maybe people see him how they want to see him & retain only what suits their wants & needs?That's an interesting take. I'll chew on that one and get back to you. My first thought is that I think the two co-exist, actually.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sounds like the Tiger Woods story but at least he has earned the privilege of being the most marketable, if that makes any sense (which probably doesn't).

I get what you're saying, so I guess it must have made some sort of sense.

But I'm not sure that I'd necessarily call it a "privilege" in some ways. Some stuff in life just "is". Think of it kinda like Brittney Spears or something, there's more than pure talent or even productivity that goes into what people enjoy seeing.

[Buccaneer]

I get what you're saying, so I guess it must have made some sort of sense.

But I'm not sure that I'd necessarily call it a "privilege" in some ways. Some stuff in life just "is". Think of it kinda like Brittney Spears or something, there's more than pure talent or even productivity that goes into what people enjoy seeing.
This has been obvious in music where talent is more subjective but I wouldn't have thought it would be equated to sports where performance and results are quite objective and knowable.

I recall the backlash against LeBron and the Nike contract to where many wanted him to prove something first. That he has is besides the point but the goal of sports had been about winning and performance with entertainment being secondary. Will it come a time that sports will be more about getting entertainers than producing winners? I believe that would be the wishes of TV executives but would sports fans accept that in the long run?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I believe that would be the wishes of TV executives but would sports fans accept that in the long run?

You actually think sports fans are still driving the bus?
What a quaint notion ;)

[rkmsuf]

Brunell got hosed. He should be the #3 guy. Big deal, so Vick rushes for 40 yards a game. Whoopie.

[KWhit]

Brunell is passing for under 200 yds per game, so it's not like he's lighting it up.

When you include rushing yards and TDs, Vick is right up there and should be in the discussion for #3 QB in the NFC. I can see the argument for him, Manning, Bledsoe, and Brunell. I think all four of those guys are equally mediocre and could be considered for the #3 guy.

[Ragone]

Need to add throwing up wounded ducks to the micheal vick experience ride!

To give you a very bad example.. i've had micheal vick and eli manning as my 2 ffl qb's all year.. i'm terrified to start either one of them

[rkmsuf]

Brunell is passing for under 200 yds per game, so it's not like he's lighting it up.

When you include rushing yards and TDs, Vick is right up there and should be in the discussion for #3 QB in the NFC. I can see the argument for him, Manning, Bledsoe, and Brunell. I think all four of those guys are equally mediocre and could be considered for the #3 guy.


add Vick's rushing and passing and he's still not there.

maybe it's the incredible intangibles and leadership he brings to the team.

[Superman=#54]

Where's Rex Grossman?!

[KWhit]

add Vick's rushing and passing and he's still not there.

maybe it's the incredible intangibles and leadership he brings to the team.
What do you mean by "not there?"

If you look at passing, rushing, and sack yardage, Brunell averages 192 ypg. Vick averages 194 ypg.

Total TDs: Vick=1.46 per game. Brunell=1.42 per game.

And Brunell has lost 6 fumbles this year, Vick has lost 4.

It all depends on the stats you look at. If you are only looking at passing numbers, you're ignoring half of Vick's game. And I didn't say that he should be a Pro-Bowler. I said that he deserved the third spot as much as any of the other guys in the NFC.

[GrantDawg]

Vick shouldn't have made it. I was surprised when I read he did. What a sham of an honor.

[Bee]

What do you mean by "not there?"

If you look at passing, rushing, and sack yardage, Brunell averages 192 ypg. Vick averages 194 ypg.

Total TDs: Vick=1.46 per game. Brunell=1.42 per game.

And Brunell has lost 6 fumbles this year, Vick has lost 4.

It all depends on the stats you look at. If you are only looking at passing numbers, you're ignoring half of Vick's game. And I didn't say that he should be a Pro-Bowler. I said that he deserved the third spot as much as any of the other guys in the NFC.

Don't know where you got the ypg for Brunell, but they don't match what I have. I have 199.8 ypg passing and 206.5 ypg when you add in his rushing (like you have for Vick). If you want to compare TD per game, then you should compare turnover per game instead of just giving total fumbles. That would be Brunell = 1.0 TO/game, Vick = 1.2 TO/game. The TD/TO ratio (including rushing TDs and fumbles) would then be Brunell = 1.43 TD/TO and Vick = 1.19 TD/TO.

While Vick's numbers puts him in the conversation, I think Brunell is more deserving, but I don't disagree that Vick isn't much behind anyone else for the third spot. It's a popularity contest anyway.

edit:

Just checked Bledsoe and Eli Manning. When adding in rushing stats/fumbles, Bledsoe has 231.3 ypg and a TD/TO ratio of 1.28. Manning has 241.64 ypg and a TD/TO ratio of 1.44. Even throwing in Vicks rushing numbers, statistically he's still behind the others IMO. Looking just at stats, Eli Manning seems to be the guy that's getting the short end of the stick IMO.

[Joe]

Apparently Olin Kruetz was mad at Minnesota's Pat Williams (regarded by many experts as the NFC's biggest oversight) and conspired to see that no Bears players voted for him, likely costing him a spot.

When it's a teammate who's known to beat up fellow teammates and keep them out of games, I guess I'd listen too. Still, doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the Pro Bowl.

[LionsFan10]

C'mon, who here honestly believes that if Donovan McNabb & Daunte Culpepper weren't down for the season, that the starting NFC Pro Bowl QB's would be ...

1. McNabb
2. Culpepper
3. Vick

Hasselbeck, because of his teams performance this season would probably make it onto this list somewhere MAYBE. And look at how mediocre (at best) Culpepper and McNabb were performing this season before they got hurt. But beyond that does anybody really believe that these three wouldn't be in Hawaii come February?