FOF 5.1 Free Agency Over Cap Bug Question

[Ben E Lou]

Has anyone who has seen it sent a savegame to Jim? I've yet to run into it myself.

[Cap Ologist]

I've seen it, but never thought about sending one to Jim. I'd hate him for to be able to steal all my gameplanning secrets.:p

[ozias]

The only time I've run across it is when you place bids on too many Free Agents.

I did it intentionally one year to see what everyone was talking about and put in a bid on 20 FA's, well I only had around 25 million available after the draft money is taken into effect. I needed to save around 6.5 mil for the draft.
It seems that the bids are calculated all at once instead of 1 player at a time, so in effect with the 20 FA's I was trying to spend more than the 25 mil I had available, hence Over the Cap.
That has been the only time I have run across it. If I make legitimate bids on just a few FA to fill holes I never run into the bug.

[amdaily]

The only time I've run across it is when you place bids on too many Free Agents.

I did it intentionally one year to see what everyone was talking about and put in a bid on 20 FA's, well I only had around 25 million available after the draft money is taken into effect. I needed to save around 6.5 mil for the draft.
It seems that the bids are calculated all at once instead of 1 player at a time, so in effect with the 20 FA's I was trying to spend more than the 25 mil I had available, hence Over the Cap.
That has been the only time I have run across it. If I make legitimate bids on just a few FA to fill holes I never run into the bug.
I don't know if that's it. In a couple careers, I've put in bids on well over 20 players in week 1 of the first offseason, and never ran into it.

I finally had the bug pop up yesterday when I placed bids on 8 players with $25 million of cap room. Only one of the bids was for more than $3 million. I have multiple saves and have been rerunning it at each stage to try and isolate the problem, but no luck thus far.

[strait8]

I put up the original post about the bug. I got it with just 3 or 4 offers out.

[ozias]

hmm...the only time i've seen it was when I did the example above to test it out, other than that I haven't see it yet.

Did you notice whether you lost money the previous season in your balance sheet? Not sure if that would be the culprit or not, but if your losing money from season to season then it's possible that is being taken into account on your FA bids.

[Buzzbee]

Based on what I've read it sounds like how many offers you make doesn't matter. It sounds like if the total amount of your offers (for contract year 1) is more than you have available in cap room, you hit the bug.

Example A:

$10 million in cap room. Make 1 offer to a FA where the total $'s in year one is $8 million. No problem, bug not hit.

$10 million in cap room. Make 1 offer to a FA where the total $'s in year one is $8 million. Make another offer to a FA where the total $'s in year one is $6 million. Problem. Bug hit. Game sees total 1st year offers of $14 million, but only $10 million available and withdraws all offers.


Or another possiblilty:

Example B:

$10 million in cap room. Offer to FA is for $6 million total in year one. $8 million total in year two. Game could be looking at the total value of contract rather than only the year one value. I seriously doubt this is the case, but thought I'd throw it out as a possibility.




What should happen in the first example is that the game should allow you to sign either the $8 million guy or the $6 million guy, but not both. It sounds like it is automatically eliminating both as a possible signee.


Just my $0.02.

[Buzzbee]

Dola - I'm also guessing that "available" is taking into account existing salaries as well as $'s set aside for draftees. Your "cap room" isn't just your cap minus your salaries, but your cap minus existing salaries minus what the game expects you to spend on signing draftees.

Therefore having a high 1st round pick could affect your ability to sign FA's because the game is "holding back" money to sign the draftees.

[hukarez]

Just out of curiousity...


Are these issues involving existing universes from pre-5.1 or games started from scratch? :confused:

I'm guessing it's for either or?

[Ben E Lou]

Just out of curiousity...


Are these issues involving existing universes from pre-5.1 or games started from scratch? :confused:

I'm guessing it's for either or?My career (where I haven't seen it at all, but I've never offered too many FA contracts, either) is from scratch.

[Cringer]

Ok, keep giving me info.

The Imperial League is set to have Free Agency Day 1 (first stage) on Saturday. Up until now I have been considering postponing this if there is not a patch soon. One of my questions is, does the bug make it's self apperent right away after a Day is run? If that is the case, then I am considering running Day 1 with or without a patch. If this problem pops up then I stop there and go back to the pre-Day 1 stage and wait for a patch. If no problem shows up, and I can be positive of that, then we can proceed to Day 2 on Sunday.

I just installed the Update 2 days ago on Sunday, and have not had the chance to do solo play, focusing time on the MP league. I thought it was more of a problem then this is now sounding.

[gottimd]

What Buzzbee said has happened to me pre 5.1

I had a lot of draft picks, and it wouldn't let me sign anyone b/c I wouldn't have enough room to sign the rookies.

[ozias]

I had a lot of draft picks, and it wouldn't let me sign anyone b/c I wouldn't have enough room to sign the rookies.


I can see not being able to sign FA's when needing money for the rookie draft picks.

But if you have 25 million to spend and need to save 5 million for rookies you should still be able to spend the other 20 million.

If you place offers that go over the 20 million you have than you should still be able to get some of the FA's that want to sign with you, especially since your not going to have a FA's sign with your team the exact same week.

But that is when the bug rears it's ugly head :(

Again the only time I've seen it is when I intentionally placed too many bids and knew full well I didn't have that kind of money to spend.

[Solecismic]

This theory doesn't make sense given how the game looks at the salary cap situation. There's no search of offers, just an assessment of the current offer w.r.t. players already under contract.

I'm looking into this. Still not 100% sure about the bug description, or even if there is one (not that this constitutes a denial, I'm still planning on a more thorough analysis) . Does saving and reloading make a difference at that exact time you run into this?

[amdaily]

Does saving and reloading make a difference at that exact time you run into this?
Yes. One of my saves was right after I made all my FA offers. I just replayed the 20 step process about a dozen times. Sometimes I got over caps errors on week 1, sometimes not till week 3, and this last time not at all. Also, the AI got a massive amount of overcap errors in one of the runs (10+ per day for 3 days in a row). I'll upload this file.

[amdaily]

Alright,

The zipped universe is here: http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/universe.zip

Unzipped is in this directory: http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/universe (this will need 16 more minutes to upload)

And since it doesn't play out correctly with each reload, I've uploaded screenshots (after week 1, 2, and 3) of the scenario with problems.

http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/wk1.gif - Note that I had $21.74 mil in cap space, $18.10 to use subtracting the rookie pool, and only $11.24 million in 1st year offers to the 8 players.

http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/wk2.gif - Notice that the AI teams start going over the cap as well. Check the cap room available screen to see that this should also not be possible since even the lowest team has plenty of space. Also, during the runs when I get do not get cap errors, I don't notice any for the AI either.

http://s92878788.onlinehome.us/wk3.gif - I sorted this screen by team name. Notice that Cukro is back under ATL, but not highlighted. Despite my offer being in to him, no one else bidding on him, and plenty of cap space, he won't sign with my even at the end of 20 steps.

[Cap Ologist]

I've seen this in my new 5.1 dynasty. I had about 40 million in cap room and was trying to sign 10 undrafted rookies for the league minimum. All of them ended up being over the cap and I had to wait until the free agency period was over. I reoffered and everyone accepted.

[PineTar]

Here's my exact situation as I sit in front of the game. Currently in 20 stage free agency in 2027, with $53.66MM in Cap Space / $12.81MM in Est. Draft Cap Cost, which by my math leaves me with $40.85MM in kickaround money. The team's financial status is in fine shape. We have finished in the black for seventeen consecutive seasons.

I have 3 outstanding offers to FA candidates:

FB Bill Brown

Bonus: $4.02MM
This season: $2.33MM
2028: $4.07MM

Total Lifetime of All Contract Salaries: $10.42MM

WLB Marcus Kumar

Bonus: $60k
This season: $1.45MM
2028: $2.25MM

Total Lifetime of Contract Salary: $3.76MM


SS David McGurk

Bonus: $10.80MM
This season: $5.02MM
2028: $5.16MM
2029: $5.95MM

Total Lifetime of Contract Salary: $26.93MM

Total Lifetime of All Contract Salaries: $41.11MM

With these offers on the table as of stage 6, I started getting the Over Cap messages. Wasn't sure if these related to me, as I didn't "lead" on any of these guys. McGurk is a loyal lifetime player of mine (loyalty of 94), so I figured I could underbid slightly on him. The others I was counting on play for a winner to kick in. So I've gone through a series of stages where I'd get the "Over Cap" message in each of the 3 players instances, and in each instance the player went from being colored red to black (which is especially odd in McGurk's case, since he was on my roster at season's end, and can still be seen there when looking on my roster screen). Another weird thing to note is in the "Other Offers" Box for each of these players, my last offer is still sitting there. Sorry Jim, there is no way this is anything but a bug.

I tried something out... I withdrew from Kumar, thinking that if my Total Lifetime of All Contract Salaries was lowered to a point under my $40.85MM in current year "available" cap space, the bug would go away. No dice. Still seeing it even with active bids on just Brown and McGurk. Went ahead and played out the remaining stages without reacting to yet another "Over Cap" status. In the end, at the close of stage 20, there is approximately 100 players (including Brown, Kumar and McGurk) who are still "pending". This is new with the 5.1 install. Guys with offers always signed in stage 20 before.

If someone wants to give me EXACT instructions on what needs to be sent to Jim, I can push my save his way.

[Solecismic]

I have what I need right now, thanks. I've been waiting to work on this in hopes that more people would be playing 5.1.

If a lot of people have been holding off playing 5.1 because of this (and it's fairly minor, though it needs fixing and could have some impact on MP leagues) that's a shame, because 5.1 was pretty huge and this may be your only chance to get more minor items fixed.

[Franklinnoble]

I have what I need right now, thanks. I've been waiting to work on this in hopes that more people would be playing 5.1.

If a lot of people have been holding off playing 5.1 because of this (and it's fairly minor, though it needs fixing and could have some impact on MP leagues) that's a shame, because 5.1 was pretty huge and this may be your only chance to get more minor items fixed.

I just haven't had time to kick off a 5.1 career yet... I'm getting to it, though... I wasn't holding out because of any minor bugs or anything... for what that's worth.

[Cringer]

If a lot of people have been holding off playing 5.1 because of this (and it's fairly minor, though it needs fixing and could have some impact on MP leagues) that's a shame, because 5.1 was pretty huge and this may be your only chance to get more minor items fixed.

I will say on Saturday if it has an impact for the Imperial League, that is when we sim Day 1 of the 20 Stage Free Agency period.

[amdaily]

I have what I need right now, thanks. I've been waiting to work on this in hopes that more people would be playing 5.1.

If a lot of people have been holding off playing 5.1 because of this (and it's fairly minor, though it needs fixing and could have some impact on MP leagues) that's a shame, because 5.1 was pretty huge and this may be your only chance to get more minor items fixed. The only other issue I have a problem with is injury distribution. If I recall correctly 5.0c shifted some of the injuries from players marked as prone to those that are not. Although I haven't looked up the numbers to back this up, I feel this still needs shifted more. To many of the same players are going down with season ending injuries year in and year out (especially older players) while others never even miss a play over an entire career.

I did look up the number of missed games per year and the FOF stats fall perfectly in line. To be clear, my criticism is that in FOF the same set of players will be missing those games every year.

But other then that, I don't have any complaints with 5.1.

[Solecismic]

The only other issue I have a problem with is injury distribution. If I recall correctly 5.0c shifted some of the injuries from players marked as prone to those that are not. Although I haven't looked up the numbers to back this up, I feel this still needs shifted more. To many of the same players are going down with season ending injuries year in and year out (especially older players) while others never even miss a play over an entire career.

I did look up the number of missed games per year and the FOF stats fall perfectly in line. To be clear, my criticism is that in FOF the same set of players will be missing those games every year.

But other then that, I don't have any complaints with 5.1.

Okay. Probably tomorrow, then. It's done, but I have to wait for ViaTech to update the executable. Edit. I don't know their vacation schedule. Might have to wait a few days, might not.

Here's the list:

1) Refix the attendance fix.
2) Add formation data to expanded game logs.
3) Fix coach of the year selection in MP. Now it goes to Ann Arbor every year.
4) Less going for 2pc before end-game.
5) Lower the injury penalty for prone players.
6) Fix improper over-cap signal when real cause for rejection was finicky player, who, for the reason of careless programming, then decided every offer sucked. And I had streamlined hundreds of lines of code with that one, too. I'm amazed it wasn't crashing all over the place, which I would have caught before release.
7) Add one to secondary positions of rookies higher than MLB in base player file (this will get Deangelo Hall and his friends into the right places, though my guess is that your list isn't quite the same due to some minor real-life changes for long-time veterans).
8) Change penalty for being over the cap to a loss of a first-round pick and spotting the opposing team a field goal at the beginning of each game.

Just kidding about 8.

[jbmagic]

Thanks Jim

game is alot of fun...


peopel have concern here at this thread too for 5.1

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?t=32334

thanks

[Cringer]

Beautiful Jim, thanks for the fast work. Now my Thanksgiving day can be spent praying that ViaTech will be up and running tomorrow or Friday, and the Imperial League is set for Saturday.

[Pyser]

7) Add one to secondary positions of rookies higher than MLB in base player file (this will get Deangelo Hall and his friends into the right places, though my guess is that your list isn't quite the same due to some minor real-life changes for long-time veterans).


I'm having problems understanding this. does this mean most rookies in the secondary is a lb right now? or am i way off? (yes, ive seen the "players in wrong positions" thread) im just not sure im reading this right.

the rest looks great, jim! just one question, and this may be asking too much...is there a way to list which defender got beat on a completion, in the game log? thanks.

[Buccaneer]

Okay. Probably tomorrow, then. It's done, but I have to wait for ViaTech to update the executable. Edit. I don't know their vacation schedule. Might have to wait a few days, might not.

Here's the list:

1) Refix the attendance fix.
2) Add formation data to expanded game logs.
3) Fix coach of the year selection in MP. Now it goes to Ann Arbor every year.
4) Less going for 2pc before end-game.
5) Lower the injury penalty for prone players.
6) Fix improper over-cap signal when real cause for rejection was finicky player, who, for the reason of careless programming, then decided every offer sucked. And I had streamlined hundreds of lines of code with that one, too. I'm amazed it wasn't crashing all over the place, which I would have caught before release.
7) Add one to secondary positions of rookies higher than MLB in base player file (this will get Deangelo Hall and his friends into the right places, though my guess is that your list isn't quite the same due to some minor real-life changes for long-time veterans).
8) Change penalty for being over the cap to a loss of a first-round pick and spotting the opposing team a field goal at the beginning of each game.

Just kidding about 8.
but not 3? lol.

[Cringer]

but not 3? lol.

I don't know whats better, the coach of a team with one of the wrost records getting the award every year, or a coach on a team NOT in the league?
:rolleyes: :p

[Buccaneer]

Ann Arbor is the league, you're just not elite enough. Oh shit, now I sound like HA and that's bad, very bad. I'll go back to Pirates now....

[yabanci]

I'm having problems understanding this. does this mean most rookies in the secondary is a lb right now? or am i way off? (yes, ive seen the "players in wrong positions" thread) im just not sure im reading this right.

the rest looks great, jim! just one question, and this may be asking too much...is there a way to list which defender got beat on a completion, in the game log? thanks.

In the 5.1 default/real player file, the position numbers for rookie WLB, cornerbacks, and safties are off by one. That's why the rookie cornerbacks (Pos 24) are listed as WLB (Pos 23) and a strong safety (Pos 26) like Michael Boulware is listed as a cornerback (pos 25).

[Pyser]

In the 5.1 default/real player file, the position numbers for rookie WLB, cornerbacks, and safties are off by one. That's why the rookie cornerbacks (Pos 24) are listed as WLB (Pos 23) and a strong safety (Pos 26) like Michael Boulware is listed as a cornerback (pos 25).

makes perfect sense now. thanks.

[DaddyTorgo]

i've played a good few seasons with 5.1 and given I'm no stats-expert, but I havn't noticed anything being horribly out-of-whack.

[Ben E Lou]

Okay. Probably tomorrow, then. It's done, but I have to wait for ViaTech to update the executable. Edit. I don't know their vacation schedule. Might have to wait a few days, might not.

Here's the list:

1) Refix the attendance fix.
2) Add formation data to expanded game logs.
3) Fix coach of the year selection in MP. Now it goes to Ann Arbor every year.
4) Less going for 2pc before end-game.
5) Lower the injury penalty for prone players.
6) Fix improper over-cap signal when real cause for rejection was finicky player, who, for the reason of careless programming, then decided every offer sucked. And I had streamlined hundreds of lines of code with that one, too. I'm amazed it wasn't crashing all over the place, which I would have caught before release.
7) Add one to secondary positions of rookies higher than MLB in base player file (this will get Deangelo Hall and his friends into the right places, though my guess is that your list isn't quite the same due to some minor real-life changes for long-time veterans).
8) Change penalty for being over the cap to a loss of a first-round pick and spotting the opposing team a field goal at the beginning of each game.

Just kidding about 8.Re: numbers 1, 2 and 5.

Jim, you are the wind beneath my wings!!!

[Pyser]

oh, one more wish list thing, since we may have jims ear:

any chance for getting penalty "stats"? (who committed each penalty, within the game log? and while im thinking big, adding that as a stat for o-linemen?)

[Flasch186]

The USFL couldnt have been at a better time for all of this. Thank you Jim.

[gstelmack]

I just upgraded our office league to 5.1 in time for the draft (the minor tweak to the scouting algorithm brought some interesting reactions; 12-year veteran Adam Vinateri suddenly gained 6 points of potential...) This will be an interesting testbed as we have 8 human owners and 24 AI owners.

I've waited for #2 for a LONG time, I think gameplanning is about to get much more interesting. Anyone check to see if 3ric's viewer handles the new game logs right?

[sovereignstar]

I did a test run the other day with a multiplayer league where all 32 teams were computer-controlled. I just went through a couple of rounds of the draft before I dropped the experiment. It was funny to see a kicker taking with the third overall pick. The guy with the highest adj. bureau ranking (who was a QB) ended up getting picked in the teens. Pretty disappointing results overall.

[Solecismic]

I was thinking I'd try and squeeze a 3D match engine in there while I'm at it. Should only take a few minutes to code up.

For MP leagues waiting for this patch. There is no reason not to go ahead with any stage other than a free agency stage. While the FA bug doesn't do anything terminal to the data file, it simply does not interpret FA offers fairly, and I'm not confident players will go to the correct teams from competitive bidding. I did so much work in this area, there were bound to be problems. Hopefully this does it until whenever I'm back in the code by design. I'd like to take some time off now.

Meanwhile, I hope people like what I've done with the receiver targets page (www.solecismic.com/targetdata.php). I spent most of the weekend rewriting that. It's now a pretty significant script.

[cthomer5000]

I dunno if it's too late for this patch, but a few other issues are mentioned in this thread:

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?p=625543

[VPI97]

Meanwhile, I hope people like what I've done with the receiver targets page (www.solecismic.com/targetdata.php (http://www.solecismic.com/targetdata.php)). I spent most of the weekend rewriting that. It's now a pretty significant script.Show-off.



:)

[Eaglesfan27]

Does anyone else think this new script that Jim has produced in the link above would be a great addition to the next version of FOF? :)

[Solecismic]

I dunno if it's too late for this patch, but a few other issues are mentioned in this thread:

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?p=625543


After six years, first complaint I've seen about fumble location. You're right, of course, but that's the type of work that would add risk to the engine, and would be more appropriate for a new release.

Given everything that could happen with a fumble (out of bounds, into your own or the opponent's end zone, the multiple places in the code where fumbles are handled), I'd estimate that as about three solid days of work alone. Well beyond the scope of an update more than a year past the original release date.

[jbmagic]

Jim

on this new patch that coming...will it have updated playerfile and will there be a realnflplayerfile out too for players position and updated salary that was incorrect?

thanks

[Franklinnoble]

Any chance at adding "multiple universe" support, so that I don't have to write a batch file for each MP and SP game I'm in?

I know, I'm nitpicking...

[hukarez]

Jim

on this new patch that coming...will it have updated playerfile and will there be a realnflplayerfile out too for players position and updated salary that was incorrect?

thanks
From the website...

Are real NFL players included with Front Office Football? No. This is a career-play game, with careers lasting hundreds of years, if you have the disk space and the desire. Since almost all "real" players would be gone within 12 seasons, we saw no need to use "real" names, though the players in the default player file are loosely based on people you may be familiar with. In the retail version of the game, you can edit the player file. It's also likely that edited player files with "real" names intact will be easily obtained online, though for obvious reasons, we can't point you in any direction.

[yabanci]

Jim

on this new patch that coming...will it have updated playerfile and will there be a realnflplayerfile out too for players position and updated salary that was incorrect?

thanks

#7 on the fix list would answer that question. In the past, Primelord has leaked a new real player file when Jim releases a new default player file.

[Flasch186]

I guess I got llost in all of the dialogue.....the new update that is coming when Viatech gets back in will fix the over cap problem right?

[Cringer]

I guess I got llost in all of the dialogue.....the new update that is coming when Viatech gets back in will fix the over cap problem right?

That is correct, sir.

6) Fix improper over-cap signal when real cause for rejection was finicky player, who, for the reason of careless programming, then decided every offer sucked. And I had streamlined hundreds of lines of code with that one, too. I'm amazed it wasn't crashing all over the place, which I would have caught before release.

[MizzouRah]

In the 5.1 default/real player file, the position numbers for rookie WLB, cornerbacks, and safties are off by one. That's why the rookie cornerbacks (Pos 24) are listed as WLB (Pos 23) and a strong safety (Pos 26) like Michael Boulware is listed as a cornerback (pos 25).

When this is fixed, will it fix my in progress dynasty? I'm thinking no, but thought I would ask.

If not, is it that much of a problem that I should restart?


Thanks,

Todd