Clarett Ruled Eligible For Draft

[Ksyrup]

No story as yet on ESPN.com, just a blurb.

[Sun Tzu]

I think Mooch will take a shot at him over in Barryland.

[rkmsuf]

I guess it depends on the specific ruling but this is probably not good for the NFL...

[Sun Tzu]

IMO it was only a matter of time before under-under classmen were going to become eligible for the draft. The NFL is the last surviving professional league that has any kind of restrictions on this type of thing.

[Ksyrup]

I guess it depends on the specific ruling but this is probably not good for the NFL...
I haven't checked for an article recently, but the blurb suggested that the league's age policy violated the antitrust laws, so it's potentially a broad ruling.

[Ksyrup]

Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Suspended Ohio State running back Maurice Clarett was ruled eligible for the NFL draft Thursday by a federal judge who concluded that the league's rule violates antitrust laws.

U.S. District Judge Shira A. Scheindlin ordered the NFL to let Clarett enter April's draft.

Clarett played just one season at Ohio State, leading the Buckeyes to the 2002 national championship. He was barred from playing in the 2003 season for accepting improper benefits from a family friend and then lying about it to investigators.

Clarett sued the NFL last summer to challenge the league rule that a player must be out of high school three years for draft eligibility. Thursday's ruling, if not successfully appealed, could allow teenage football stars to take advantage of the marketing and business opportunities available to young athletes in other sports.

The league had argued that Clarett should not be eligible because its rule resulted from a collective bargaining agreement with the players and is immune from antitrust scrutiny. The NFL also argued that its rule is reasonable and that Clarett cannot bring such a lawsuit.

"While, ordinarily, the best offense is a good defense, none of these defenses hold the line," the judge wrote in a 70-page ruling.

She said Clarett could bring the lawsuit because he was fighting a policy that excludes all players in his position from selling their services to the only viable buyer -- the NFL.

"The NFL has not justified Clarett's exclusion by demonstrating that the rule enhances competition. Indeed, Clarett has alleged the very type of injury -- a complete bar to entry into the market for this services -- that the antitrust laws are designed to prevent," she said.

[Noble_Platypus]

The only viable buyer line is bullshit. He can play in canada or arena ball. Yeah it would suck, but that removes the defense of the NFL being the only place to sell his talents. I like the age restrictions. I dont want the NFL to become the NBA and have kids out of high school try and come in.

[Airhog]

its their career, let them ruin it. Besides, how many high school players actually have the talent to go pro without going through colelge? Probably very few, if any at all.

[rkmsuf]

The only viable buyer line is bullshit. He can play in canada or arena ball. Yeah it would suck, but that removes the defense of the NFL being the only place to sell his talents. I like the age restrictions. I dont want the NFL to become the NBA and have kids out of high school try and come in.

They can try it but I suspect that most teams will avoid most of these guys. There are so many needs for a football team and with the cap I can't see teams taking flyers on kids that may turn out good.

[fantastic flying froggies]

I like the age restrictions. I dont want the NFL to become the NBA and have kids out of high school try and come in.Especially since this is NFL football we're talking about. These kids will get very injured in a hurry, believe it...

[Honolulu Blue]

its their career, let them ruin it. Besides, how many high school players actually have the talent to go pro without going through colelge? Probably very few, if any at all.

I agree 100%. Clarett has made it clear that he didn't want to be in college. Better for him to knock heads in the pros than to pretend to be loyal to OSU.

I don't think this will change much in the NFL, in the long run. Most players really want to go to college and reap the rewards that playing there can provide. I'm sure some teams will try drafting young players, but without a true minor league system, all but the most talented will find themselves either in the Arena League, NFL Europe, or the practice squad.

I think Mooch will take a shot at him over in Barryland.

Not before the third round I hope.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I agree with HB#2. I think (and hope) the effect will be minimal. There are a number of factors to consider. The most obvious is the physical difference between players. There will be some physical freaks who will be put together well enough at a young age to compete in the NFL, but it will be very, very few. This isn't the NBA or NHL. Both of those sports are physical games, but not nearly in the same way as the NFL.

The other factor to consider is money. NFL contracts, as all of us little virtual GMs know, aren't guaranteed except for the signing bonus. I can't imagine too many GM's in the league will be willing to spend first round money on an 18 or 19 year old kid. Sure, it may happen if the Lebron James of football comes around, but that will be rare. So, all of a sudden you're dropping to the second round or lower. That will be a tough decision for a kid. Does he want to put his name in the draft, knwoing that he'll get a small signing bonus and little guraunteed money. Or will he want to go to college (or stay in school) and try to improve his draft status.

Even if youngsters jumping into the NFL will be rare, it will still force NFL teams to be wary of what is going on at the highschool level and really pay close attention to underclassmen. If there is that Lebron of the NFL, teams will have to know about him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Dola.

I also agree. Not before the third round.

[Ksyrup]

How about this scenario...

Look at some of the guys who signed yesterday with colleges, straight out of high school. You've got OLmen upwards of 350 lbs. Clearly, they have the size to play in the NFL, if not the athletic ability and/or technique. What if an NFL team drafts one of these monsters, gives him a decent-sized bonus but minimum salary for each year, and gives him a 7-10 year contract over which the bonus gets spread?

This would give the kid what he wants - money up front - and would allow the NFL team to take a small cap hit each year in order to develop the kid into a legit pro player during the time he would otherwise be in school. And as a bonus, he might be a serviceable lineman getting on the job training when he would otherwise be sitting in class.

That's conceivable to me.

[cthomer5000]

I don't know how enthusiastic most teams would be about giving a multi-million dollar signing bonus to 18 year olds. My gut feeling is that most NFL teams aren't going to be happy with this ruling.

It should only take a few high schoolers going undrafted before this is a rarity.

I think the more likely impact is seeing more college players come out after their "true" sophomore seasons.

[clintl]

Obviously, the NFL is not going to be happy about this, but I really don't see where their policy was legally defensible. The judge was 100% correct in ruling the way she did.

I would like to see the NFL create a minor league for these players who, for one reason or another, are not really suitable for college, but need a place to develop their football talent. I'm sure there are plenty of cities around the country with no NFL team that could turn out 10,000-15,000 fans a week for a minor league team.

[John Galt]

I think the biggest reasons it won't is:

Outrageous NFL rookie contracts v. NBA rookie cap - it is much easier to draft a high school player when it is only a small portion of your salary pool, but given high slotted salaries in the NFL and limited roster space, high school picks seem unrealistic and stupid (so maybe the Cardinals will do it, but no one else will ;) ).

[Ksyrup]

I don't foresee high schoolers being drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, so my proposal above is not intended to mean that these guys would get signing bonuses of $10M+. However, I think a long-term deal with a signing bonus around $1M would provide the team with enough flexibility to at least consider the idea.

A couple of other thoughts:

1. I agree that this will likely affect the 1st and 2nd year college players the most. Which puts a whole new spin on recruiting.

2. Speaking of recruiting, the time between college signing day and the NFL draft would become much more interesting.

[SunDancer]

Doesn't the NFL have the right to set an age limit (techinally, it's a three-year high graduation requirement)?

[Draft Dodger]

I'm kind of surprised that the NFL is actually allowing ESPN to report this story, considering it makes the NFL look bad...

;)

[rkmsuf]

Would have been an interesting test this year if Mike Williams went into the draft. He'd have a shot at jumping ahead of Fitzgerald.

Most likely neither Clarett nor Williams will even get the chance due to a probable appeal...

[mckerney]

Another lawsuit by Clarrett against the NFL can't be far off after he's not taken in day one.

[cthomer5000]

Would have been an interesting test this year if Mike Williams went into the draft. He'd have a shot at jumping ahead of Fitzgerald.

Most likely neither Clarett nor Williams will even get the chance due to a probable appeal...


Exactly. Someone like Williams would have come out in a heartbeat had this ruling been in place. The guy would have been a first round lock, if not a top 5 pick.

I think it might be time to take a close look at the freshman standouts from this past year... one more big year and they'll probably be heading pro.

[rkmsuf]

Exactly. Someone like Williams would have come out in a heartbeat had this ruling been in place. The guy would have been a first round lock, if not a top 5 pick.

I think it might be time to take a close look at the freshman standouts from this past year... one more big year and they'll probably be heading pro.

Some Peterson kid out of Texas is drawing comparisons to Eric Dickerson(not his sideline reporting talents). I believe he's going to Oklahoma...

[miami_fan]

I'm kind of surprised that the NFL is actually allowing ESPN to report this story, considering it makes the NFL look bad...

;)

LOL

[Samdari]

The only viable buyer line is bullshit. He can play in canada or arena ball. Yeah it would suck, but that removes the defense of the NFL being the only place to sell his talents. I like the age restrictions. I dont want the NFL to become the NBA and have kids out of high school try and come in.

You are missing the viable part of only viable buyer. Compared to the NFL, Arena and Canadian football are not viable alternatives.

[Gallifrey]

This opens the door for all the stupid high school kids who think they are NFL ready to go out and blow it.

[cthomer5000]

You are missing the viable part of only viable buyer. Compared to the NFL, Arena and Canadian football are not viable alternatives.

I don't understand this statement. He has viable options for playing profesionally. Is he somehow entitled to the much higher salary he would receive in the NFL?

[miami_fan]

I have no problem with this ruling.For me, the question is if a guy is capable of playing in the league and the "experts" i.e. the personnel folks who are making the pick think that this person will help their football team, why put a rule in place to stop that. From what I have read, most NFL personnel folks would not have draft Clarett above the 4th round. The vast majority of the high school players coming out of high school would not be ready to make the leap. This will only become a problem for the NFL if their personnel men follow the NBA's lead in draft incompetence

[Buccaneer]

So crime does pay?

[Samdari]

I don't understand this statement. He has viable options for playing profesionally. Is he somehow entitled to the much higher salary he would receive in the NFL?

For it to be another viable buyer, that buyer should have to be able to provide a comparable price. He should be entitled to sell his services at the highest possible price, and the NFL's rule (illegally in the eyes of this judge) prevents him from doing so.

Of course, that is from the standpoint of logic, not law, but I can easily see where the lesser leagues would not be considered "viable buyers" because they do not offer comparable prices.

[clintl]

I don't understand this statement. He has viable options for playing profesionally. Is he somehow entitled to the much higher salary he would receive in the NFL?

He certainly is entitled to compete for those contracts under the law. He's not entitled to receive them, but the NFL legally needs to have a better reason than age if he has the talent to compete for them.

[Noble_Platypus]

The fact remains that there are other leagues he can play in. If a company deems I dont meet their criteria to work for them but other lower paying companies will hire me for the same job with them, can I sue that since the other places arent offering as much money that the first place has to let me in?

[Noble_Platypus]

Its also not like he is eternally not eligle to play. Plus, he is a bad seed with a questionable past to begin with. Why should the rules be changed for him?

[Ksyrup]

The fact remains that there are other leagues he can play in. If a company deems I dont meet their criteria to work for them but other lower paying companies will hire me for the same job with them, can I sue that since the other places arent offering as much money that the first place has to let me in?
The NFL is not "a company." It is a collection of companies. Hence, the violation of anti-trust laws.

[Noble_Platypus]

Regardless, I now hope nobody drafts him if he is allowed to go in.

[clintl]

Its also not like he is eternally not eligle to play. Plus, he is a bad seed with a questionable past to begin with. Why should the rules be changed for him?

It's not so much a case of whether the rules should be changed for him, but whether the rules are legal in the first place. Companies don't have the right to break the law, and the fact that the companies involved are professional sports franchises shouldn't necessarily entitle them to special status under the law.

[digamma]

Has anyone seen a link to the text of the judge's ruling yet?

[GrantDawg]

I think this good for the NFL, colleges, players, and fans.

[Fritz]

Living in the largest market without a ML sports team, I can assure you that we could not support any minor league team with 10,000 people.

I'm sure there are plenty of cities around the country with no NFL team that could turn out 10,000-15,000 fans a week for a minor league team.

[rkmsuf]

Living in the largest market without a ML sports team, I can assure you that we could not support any minor league team with 10,000 people.

I agree...not going to happen...

[Fritz]

or course, Clarret still can not buy a handgun or rent a minivan or hold an elected federal office, but that is A-Ok because its different.

[Samdari]

The fact remains that there are other leagues he can play in. If a company deems I dont meet their criteria to work for them but other lower paying companies will hire me for the same job with them, can I sue that since the other places arent offering as much money that the first place has to let me in?

Your example does not hold up. A company may decide that you do not meet their criteria for a certain position. But, they are, in general, not allowed to automatically exclude you because you belong to a certain group. They have to look at your individual skills to determine that. The chance to have his skills evaluated fairly and compete with others for a job is all that Clarett won today, not a spot on an NFL roster.

It is actually pointless to debate whether or not this rule was a violation of antitrust laws, since the NFL did not contest that, we can assume that it was. They fought the suit basically on two points: (1) The rule was exempt from those laws because it was collectively bargained and (2) That the rule was in place to protect players of those ages from getting hurt. The judge apparently disagreed.

[Samdari]

or course, Clarret still can not buy a handgun or rent a minivan or hold an elected federal office, but that is A-Ok because its different.

Why can he not hold an elected federal office?

[Fidatelo]

Does this ruling mean NFL teams could draft 15 year olds now?

[Fritz]

Why can he not hold an elected federal office?

age

http://www.seventy.org/electioninfo/QualificationsPublicOffice.html

but hey, thats different

[Franklinnoble]

Living in the largest market without a ML sports team, I can assure you that we could not support any minor league team with 10,000 people.

I dunno. There are plenty of markets that support that many people for *high school* games. I think the NFL could find 32 towns to put minor league organizations in. It would certainly solve a lot of problems. I mean, nobody complains about corruption in college baseball, because the athletes there actually want to go to school. If they don't, they play in the minors.

[Fidatelo]

It's not so much a case of whether the rules should be changed for him, but whether the rules are legal in the first place. Companies don't have the right to break the law, and the fact that the companies involved are professional sports franchises shouldn't necessarily entitle them to special status under the law.

If this is the case, then sports is in for a world of hurt. The entire process of a 'draft' could be challenged.

[Fritz]

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html

[sabotai]

Does this ruling mean NFL teams could draft 15 year olds now?
No, Child Labor Laws...16 year olds, I think so.

[clintl]

Well, that's the job of policy makers to decide where to draw the line. Given them enough of an exemption to antitrust laws to conduct a draft for competitive balance purposes is probably a reasonable exemption. But blatantly discriminating against legal adults based on age does not serve any legitimate competitive purpose.

[John Galt]

If this is the case, then sports is in for a world of hurt. The entire process of a 'draft' could be challenged.

That's why this case is interesting from an antitrust perspective. Whereas baseball is magically exempted from antitrust rules, the NBA and NFL have to tread carefully. There has always been talk of someone challenging the draft on antitrust grounds, but everyone has been afraid to do it because of the personal consequences for the person suing. I've always felt if someone litigated it to the end, the drafts would be struck down by the courts. I like drafts, so I would be sad, but overall I think it is the right thing to do.

We always talk about how rich and spoiled athletes are, but name another industry with offices all over the country where you have no choice where you initially work and where owners can trade your exclusive rights without your agreement. "In this weeks news, investment banker Johnny Stone was traded by Goldman Sachs in New York to a small kitchen utensil upstart in Omaha. Johnny doesn't have the cutlery skills yet, but he has real upside potential there." Athletes get a lot of perks, but they live in an industry with monopolies who have shady business practices. I'm NOT arguing that overall being a professional athelete isn't a sweet deal. I am arguing that the business practices used by owners are suspect legally and ethically. Just as the reserve clause was exploited for years in baseball to screw athletes, the draft is an impediment to a free market in sports.

I like the draft, but I fear it must go sooner or later.

Of course, collective bargaining complicates the picture a bit, but I've never been a fan of a union that bargains the rights of prospective members to their detriment (like the NBA union agreeing to a rookie salary cap which didn't hurt current members).

[clintl]

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html

What does the Arena League draw? It seems to me a decent quality minor league playing on a full field could be expected to do as well as that. If it's below 10,000, then maybe I'm wrong.

[Franklinnoble]

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html

Those are better numbers than the WNBA gets... ;)

I think it could work. If the Arena league can hang around for 10+ years, a minor league for the NFL has a pretty good shot.

The NBA should do the same thing.

[GrantDawg]

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html
apples/oranges. Your talking about less games for football which would at least increase average attendance over 10,000 (not to mention it is currently a much more popular sport). The average attendance at Arena league games last year was over 12,000.

[sooner333]

If Oklahoma City can average 9,000-10,000 for a Double-A hockey team, then I would say that they could support a minor league football team? Now, I don't want a minor league football, but it could be supported. Who knows, maybe Oklahoma City wouldn't support it because they wouldn't want to see their players (OU and OSU players) being taken into their league prematurely. Oklahoma City is still a college area first, despite CHL hockey, AAA baseball, and afl2 football (although, they do have a nice, new arena).

[rkmsuf]

What does the Arena League draw? It seems to me a decent quality minor league playing on a full field could be expected to do as well as that. If it's below 10,000, then maybe I'm wrong.

Average total Arena League attendance:

1998: 10,594
1999: 10,014
2000: 9,619
2001: 9,176
2002: 9,958
2003: 11,397

NBC seemed to help in 2003...

[cthomer5000]

I think it's worth noting that Arena also plays a different style of football. I don't know if a "NFL rules" minor league would do as well. Especially since it would now basically have to go head-to-head with Arena football.

[Ksyrup]

Here's a link to excerpts from the ruling:

hxxp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/05/sports1235EST0344.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/05/sports1235EST0344.DTL)

[Easy Mac]

No, Child Labor Laws...16 year olds, I think so.
Freddy Adu

Seeing as how he couldn't even last 3 weeks in college without crying that he's injured (which he did every day), how does Clarett expect to make it through a 16 game schedule.

[Ksyrup]

Lame:

"This case has progressed rapidly, virtually rushing toward the goal line because of the imminence of the 2004 draft."
"While, ordinarily, the best offense is a good defense, none of these defenses hold the line."

[rkmsuf]

Lame:

"This case has progressed rapidly, virtually rushing toward the goal line because of the imminence of the 2004 draft."
"While, ordinarily, the best offense is a good defense, none of these defenses hold the line."

That judge is a regular John Madden...

[GrantDawg]

I finally found the final number for last year’s league. It was 11,397, which was up 15% over the previous year (which had risen 8.8% over the year before).

Looks to me like teams filled more directly by the NFL with better talent would beat those numbers.

[rkmsuf]

I finally found the final number for last year’s league. It was 11,397, which was up 15% over the previous year (which had risen 8.8% over the year before).

Looks to me like teams filled more directly by the NFL with better talent would beat those numbers.


Could have saved yourself the trouble and just read my post 6 prior...

[Fritz]

Arena football is apples/orages to minor league football as well.

1.) they play indoors
2.) they play offseason from the pros
3.) it is a completely different game

Of course, the 10,000 figure clint threw out means nothing. I think he was just saying that minor league football could be viable. I think it would have a hard time doing so, at least as a fall sport.

[Ksyrup]

Seeing as how he couldn't even last 3 weeks in college without crying that he's injured (which he did every day), how does Clarett expect to make it through a 16 game schedule.That's for the NFL's scouting braintrusts to decide. The point is, he should be able to make himself available, and if they say no thanks, then too bad for him.

If this ulitmately is upheld, I wonder if the NCAA, desperate to keep talent in the game, will allow guys who declare themelves eligible for the draft, but who get drafted in low rounds or not at all, to come back to school. I believe in basketball, once you declare, you're done right? But in baeball, the rule is different, isn't it (I recall Mark Prior being drafted by the Yankees, but he obviously went to school)? I could see then treating football differently, since it's the cash cow. Especially for the first few years, when nno one will really know how the NFL teams will react to a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds entering the draft.

[GrantDawg]

Could have saved yourself the trouble and just read my post 6 prior...
I was in the proccess of posting when you posted. :)

[rkmsuf]

I was in the proccess of posting when you posted. :)

I'm sensitive about my stats...;)

[Ksyrup]

I think he was just saying that minor league football could be viable. I think it would have a hard time doing so, at least as a fall sport.
I completely agree, as far as playing in the fall. But a spring league in the southeast - I could see that fly.

[GrantDawg]

I completely agree, as far as playing in the fall. But a spring league in the southeast - I could see that fly.
Especially with the financial power of the NFL to back it.

[rkmsuf]

Especially with the financial power of the NFL to back it.



Isn't that what NFL Europe is with the added benefit of expanding the game internationally?

[GrantDawg]

Isn't that what NFL Europe is with the added benefit of expanding the game internationally?
Nope. It is too limited in the number of players that can be sent and the talent level of the play. Many players will not go, and the number of American players are severaly limited. It is helpful, but no where near what a true state-side minor league could do.

[rkmsuf]

Nope. It is too limited in the number of players that can be sent and the talent level of the play. Many players will not go, and the number of American players are severaly limited. It is helpful, but no where near what a true state-side minor league could do.

Actually I think the reverse is true. NFL Europe teams are required to carry a minumun # of international players to offset the mostly American roster.

Either way I don't think the talent pool is big enough overall to support much of a minor league system. Football is very different as it has the shortest player lifespan. Guys who make it their life aren't going to toil in the "minors" for long as a rule. That and the fact you need so many guys to field a football team make it a daunting task if you want to put out a quality product.

[Fritz]

That's for the NFL's scouting braintrusts to decide. The point is, he should be able to make himself available, and if they say no thanks, then too bad for him.


I guess what I flirt with earlier in this thread is that an adult's age is considered an acceptable criteria for a number of things. One of those things happens to be elected office, which one could argue is employment.

[Easy Mac]

They do have a minor league, its college.

And whoever said guys want to go to college to play are kidding themselves... those players would jump at the chance to play in the NFL rather than go to college.

[Ksyrup]

There have been guys in the AFL for years. I think guys who would otherwise spend 5-7 years in the AFL would jump at the chance to play in an NFL minor league, on the off-chance they could get intvited to training camp. In fact, I think the AFL would be the biggest loser - although a different game, they'd lose a large chunk of talent to an NFL minor league.

[rkmsuf]

There have been guys in the AFL for years. I think guys who would otherwise spend 5-7 years in the AFL would jump at the chance to play in an NFL minor league, on the off-chance they could get intvited to training camp. In fact, I think the AFL would be the biggest loser - although a different game, they'd lose a large chunk of talent to an NFL minor league.

You can play in the AFL for years since it's a much different game. I'm sure guys would jump at it but I'm not sure the sum of those guys translates into interesting football.

Most of those guys do get a shot at training camp at some point and most haven't made it for a reason. Sure you'll get the occasional Tommy Maddox or something but it's way different than baseball...

[Ksyrup]

I guess what I flirt with earlier in this thread is that an adult's age is considered an acceptable criteria for a number of things. One of those things happens to be elected office, which one could argue is employment.
But elected office is employment by the federal government. To my knowledge, the federal government is not subject to anti-trust laws. The NFL is a collective of private organizations which seeks to enforce certain barriers to entry into its business by prospective employees. So, I don't see the comparison.

[General Mike]

That's for the NFL's scouting braintrusts to decide. The point is, he should be able to make himself available, and if they say no thanks, then too bad for him.

If this ulitmately is upheld, I wonder if the NCAA, desperate to keep talent in the game, will allow guys who declare themelves eligible for the draft, but who get drafted in low rounds or not at all, to come back to school. I believe in basketball, once you declare, you're done right? But in baeball, the rule is different, isn't it (I recall Mark Prior being drafted by the Yankees, but he obviously went to school)? I could see then treating football differently, since it's the cash cow. Especially for the first few years, when nno one will really know how the NFL teams will react to a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds entering the draft.

The difference with the baseball draft is that you don't formally declare for it. You either get drafted out of high school and sign, get drafted and decide to go to college, or just go to college. When you become 21, you can be redrafted. As long as you don't sign with an agent, you can go back.

IMO, the reason the NFL lost, and will lose the appeal, is because they didn't choose an age, they chose an arbitrary figure. You could be 3 years out of high school and be 19, 20, 21, 22. Baseball has a set age (21), basketball has a set age, the NFL doesn't. You know they will change the rule as soon as possible.

[Samdari]

The difference with the baseball draft is that you don't formally declare for it. You either get drafted out of high school and sign, get drafted and decide to go to college, or just go to college. When you become 21, you can be redrafted. As long as you don't sign with an agent, you can go back.

IMO, the reason the NFL lost, and will lose the appeal, is because they didn't choose an age, they chose an arbitrary figure. You could be 3 years out of high school and be 19, 20, 21, 22. Baseball has a set age (21), basketball has a set age, the NFL doesn't. You know they will change the rule as soon as possible.

Baseball gives people whose high school class has graduated the opportunity to compete for employment based on their skills before they go to college. Football does not, it automatically excludes them for three years. That is the fundamental difference between how football and baseball does things. Plus, baseball has an antitrust exemption, football does not.

Basketball does not have a set age, actually, it is merely high school class graduating. Stern wants to put a minimum age of 20 on the books, but the union is fighting it.

[henry296]

A NBA prospect did challenge the draft on anti-trust grounds in the early 1980s. I belive it was Leon Wood. He was drafted and then sued for free agency claiming anti-trust. The draft was upheld because the draft was agreed to under the Collective Bargaining process. Maybe one of our lawyer friends knows more, but I read the ruling in a sports law class I took in college.

Todd

[Easy Mac]

Basketball does not have a set age, actually, it is merely high school class graduating. Stern wants to put a minimum age of 20 on the books, but the union is fighting it.
I thought they had it set at the age of 18. There was some big thing this year because Darko wanted to play, but he wouldn't turn 18 until after the draft. Tehy made an exemption for him.

[kingfc22]

I have no problem with allowing basketball players enter early because today's NBA is purely based on athleticsm and not a lot of skill. But, football is a totally different story. Clarett hasn't played for a year and in his freshman year he was hurt numerous times. How does he expect to make a team and accept the punishment of grown men knocking him silly.

[mckerney]

I thought they had it set at the age of 18. There was some big thing this year because Darko wanted to play, but he wouldn't turn 18 until after the draft. Tehy made an exemption for him.

The situation with Darko was that he'd be 18 by the draft, but at the time he had to declare for the draft he was only 17. I believe he wound up getting the exemption was because of the fact he would be 18 by the draft.

[NoMyths]

I also wonder about the outcry that will follow the first 18-year old getting paralyzed during a game.

[General Mike]

Baseball gives people whose high school class has graduated the opportunity to compete for employment based on their skills before they go to college. Football does not, it automatically excludes them for three years. That is the fundamental difference between how football and baseball does things. Plus, baseball has an antitrust exemption, football does not.


Fine, then let some high school idiots declare for the draft. They won't get drafted.

[rexallllsc]

I dunno. There are plenty of markets that support that many people for *high school* games. I think the NFL could find 32 towns to put minor league organizations in. It would certainly solve a lot of problems. I mean, nobody complains about corruption in college baseball, because the athletes there actually want to go to school. If they don't, they play in the minors.

Then again, no one cares about College Baseball except for LSU fans.

[Samdari]

Fine, then let some high school idiots declare for the draft. They won't get drafted.

Sadly some will.

I actually think that the NFL's rule was one that was clearly violated this class of people's legal rights, but was also in their best interests. I am not happy about it, but have long felt it was an inevitability that this rule would be struck down.

I had forgotten about the NBA's 18 year old rule. They do require one's high school class to have graduated, regardless of age (i.e an 18 year old HS junior may not declare). But, I think the 18 year old thing is an issue of one not legally being able to sign a contract in this country until the age of 18.

[Fritz]

But elected office is employment by the federal government. To my knowledge, the federal government is not subject to anti-trust laws. The NFL is a collective of private organizations which seeks to enforce certain barriers to entry into its business by prospective employees. So, I don't see the comparison.

You are telling me that it is not violating any laws, which is what I was saying.

I don't know anything about anti trust laws. What I do know is that we, as a people, have established that age beyond majority matters. At some point beyond 18 you become wiser, more responsible, or more able in some manner. We feel this is such a core truth that it is clearly written into one of our most basic documents. We support the concept as evidenced in gun and alcohol laws. We allow private ventures to establish age as a criteria for goods and services. It seems a bit odd to me that on hand you can have a structure that uses age as a criteria, and on the other hand you can say that age should not be a factor.

[ISiddiqui]

It's time for some Congressmen to get on the floor and get Football an anti-trust exemption. Maybe Kerry can do it and score some votes from college football fans :D.

[HornedFrog Purple]

That and a college football playoff and I am handing out Kerry bumper stickers.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The fact remains that there are other leagues he can play in. If a company deems I dont meet their criteria to work for them but other lower paying companies will hire me for the same job with them, can I sue that since the other places arent offering as much money that the first place has to let me in?

Yeah, but imagine it's not one company, but 47 of 50 companies and they are the only ones with access to markets where you can earn a lot of money.

It's about sufficient dominance over the marketplace. Because the NFL has a huge share of the pro football market, any restrictive rules necessarily restrict competition. Clarett is the perfect example - he can't get the kind of money available in the NFL anywhere else.

Here is an example. You own a car and it's yellow (and you cannot paint it). You want to sell it for as much as it's worth. Now, every used car dealer in America gets together and AGREES that no one will buy yellow cars from people. Now assume that car dealers are the only ones who can sell used cars for big dough (this is a valid assumption because the NFL is the only one who can sell high quality football talent for huge revenue). There are other consumers out there who will buy your yellow car, but they won't pay much because the market for yellow cars is now very small and consumers can't pay nearly as much.

Now is the rule against buying yellow cars fair to you now that you basically get nothing for your yellow car?? And what about all the other yellow car owners??

It is amazing how many people think allowing Clarett to play in the NFL is horribly bad and a rule preventing it should stay when none of us would stand for such a rule in other fields, and especially in the very field you work in. Suppose you are a computer expert and were told "well, there are a number of big computer companies out there waiting to pay you millions of dollars but you can't go work for them for at least 3 years; because we think it would be bad for your brain." Most people would be like "thanks, I think I can make my own decisions on what is bad or good for me, I am an adult by the way."

I am sure there are better analogies out there, but that is all I could come up with for now.

I think it is bad mostly for college football because the players who truly are good enough to play in the NFL right away will not be playing in college.

[The_herd]

USA Today polled the High School players at the All-American game and there were some interesting results. I don't have the paper anymore, but when players were asked whether or not they could picture themselves in the NFL next season instead of college, there several (as in about 10) that replied they could and that they were watching the Clarett case closely. However, when all the players were asked whether they were pulling for Clarett to win, I think around 75% were against him.

So there is a number of players that would have strongly considered going pro from high school this season, but the majority seem to realize they don't belong in the NFL yet.

[Leonidas]

I wouldn't count Clarett in the NFL just yet. I suspect the NFL might know a thing or two about this whole gambling deal that hasn't been revealed yet. How did ESPN even know to make this investigation. I wouldn't put it past the NFL to have already done a thorough investigation of Clarett's links to gambling and to have tipped ESPN off. If there is more to that story then the NFL may be holding on to a sizeable trump card to keep him out of the league.

[sooner333]

Suppose you are a computer expert and were told "well, there are a number of big computer companies out there waiting to pay you millions of dollars but you can't go work for them for at least 3 years; because we think it would be bad for your brain." Most people would be like "thanks, I think I can make my own decisions on what is bad or good for me, I am an adult by the way."

Of course, a computer company offering me millions of dollars would laugh in my face when I said I didn't have a college diploma. I know there are self-made non-high school grads, but come on, we're comparing two different things. But, I don't think it will matter all that much, except maybe some true sophomores coming out of the draft. Or the occassional true freshman.

[Ksyrup]

I wouldn't count Clarett in the NFL just yet. I suspect the NFL might know a thing or two about this whole gambling deal that hasn't been revealed yet. How did ESPN even know to make this investigation. I wouldn't put it past the NFL to have already done a thorough investigation of Clarett's links to gambling and to have tipped ESPN off. If there is more to that story then the NFL may be holding on to a sizeable trump card to keep him out of the league.
Won't stop the rest of them...


Thursday, February 5, 2004
Stay of order likely won't come in time

<HR width="100%" noShade SIZE=1>By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com

Given the potential timeframe for ongoing legal maneuvers, former Ohio State tailback Maurice Clarett almost certainly will be included in the 2004 NFL draft pool, NFL executive vice president and chief in-house counsel Jeff Pash acknowledged Thursday afternoon.


And he could potentially be joined by dozens of other underclass players who might feel they are ready for the leap from the college game to the NFL.


About the only way to preclude Clarett from being eligible, Pash explained, is for the original court in the case or an appeals court to issue a stay on the ruling made Thursday by Judge Shira A. Scheindlin of the U.S. District Court in New York. Pash said he was not yet certain the league will even seek a stay -- an option that is being discussed by top NFL officials -- but that a determination will be made quickly.


Pash did reiterate that the NFL definitely will appeal Scheindlin's landmark ruling "fairly soon." But an appeals court probably would not address Scheindlin's order to include Clarett in the 2004 draft until after the April 24-25 lottery is conducted.


"It is unlikely we would get a decision from an appeals court between now and (the 2004) draft," Pash conceded. "If there is not a stay ... he would be likely to be in the draft."


Pash said the NFL will now have to re-open the application period -- during which players can petition for inclusion in the 2004 draft -- to comply with Scheindlin's ruling. A deadline for that has not been determined but, in theory, the NFL could now face a veritable flood of applications from players who were not eligible under existing league guidelines.


Pash also believes that the annual predraft combine, which commences in Indianapolis on Feb. 19, is prepared to include Clarett among its invitees. The combine is not officially a league function and instead is administered by the two scouting groups to which most NFL teams subscribe.


Asked if he felt teams might conspire to ignore Clarett, or to treat him differently than the more conventional candidates, Pash said he doesn't believe that will be the case. "I have not the slightest doubt he will be treated like any other player," Pash said. "If he can play, he will be on the field every weekend."


Pash allowed he was "pretty surprised" by the 71-page opinion Scheindlin handed down. He said that there is "such a substantial body of law" upholding antitrust exemptions for sports leagues, particularly in the New York courts, that he felt the NFL was on very solid ground in its arguments to Clarett's petition. He said the league contends Scheindlin was "erroneous" in ruling the NFL's draft rules are not the product of collective bargaining.


As noted several times by ESPN.com in recent months, the NFL draft guidelines are not explicitly addressed in the current collective bargaining agreement. Pash held, however, that the NFL Players Association accepted the league's constitution and bylaws in 1993, as an adjunct part of the collective bargaining agreement.


Pash insisted that the NFL will ultimately prevail in the appeals process. But he also pointed out that, unless the NFL can reverse the events of Thursday, there will be some players who apply for the draft who clearly don't belong in the league and who will be substantially harmed by their naivete.


He noted that there will be some players who, erroneously feeling prepared for a jump to the NFL, will lose scholarships and "their only opportunity" for a college education.


"We will not be the big losers here," Pash said. "It's not a good thing for us. But there are people who will be affected more than us and in a more adverse way."


Len Pasquarelli is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[yabanci]

Has anyone seen a link to the text of the judge's ruling yet?

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nfl/clarettnfl20504opn.pdf

[Craptacular]

This really sucks. I am a big believer in allowing professional sports leagues to set their own rules for competition.

[SunDancer]

So if a league sets a age limit, then they can be successfully sued.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Of course, a computer company offering me millions of dollars would laugh in my face when I said I didn't have a college diploma. I know there are self-made non-high school grads, but come on, we're comparing two different things. But, I don't think it will matter all that much, except maybe some true sophomores coming out of the draft. Or the occassional true freshman.

I am not sure I understand your counterpoint. Of course, my analogy assumes you actually are a qualified computer expert for whatever reason, because that is why the companies are waiting to pay you millions.

Now if you saying simply Clarett is not that good and won't get that much money, fine; but one day there will be a guy with enough talent after 1 year of college to play in the NFL and make millions but would have been prevented from doing so. That is why the rule was illegal.

[mckerney]

Asked if he felt teams might conspire to ignore Clarett, or to treat him differently than the more conventional candidates, Pash said he doesn't believe that will be the case. "I have not the slightest doubt he will be treated like any other player," Pash said. "If he can play, he will be on the field every weekend."

I doubt there will be any conspiring, but I'm sure he will see it this way when he doesn't get picked high. If Onterrio Smith dropped to the 4th round based on character and injury concerns, Clarrett could end up waiting a very long time to get drafted.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Damn. First the Fat Boys break up, and now this.

[Taur]

Count me as one of the minority who thinks Clarret will take the NFL by storm, and if Allowed will blow the scouts away at the combine. After putting up monster numbers in his workouts He will go in the top 15.

Now, will the NFL invite him to their Combine?

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Count me as one of the minority who thinks Clarret will take the NFL by storm, and if Allowed will blow the scouts away at the combine. After putting up monster numbers in his workouts He will go in the top 15.

Now, will the NFL invite him to their Combine?
How did you like Lawrence Phillips?

[stkelly52]

I don't don't think that he will fall all that far in the draft. I would guess late first or early second round. The team that I think is most likly to take a gamble on him would be New England. They have a coupld of firsts and a couple of second round picks. WIth that mny early picks they can afford to take a chance and pick him up a bit earlier than others. And if he is able to succeed at the NFL level it will be a steal.

[yabanci]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Raiders pick him up.

[mckerney]

Now, will the NFL invite him to their Combine?

The NFL doesn't run the combine, so they don't have the choice of whether or not to invite him. Chances are he will be going to the combine though.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I don't don't think that he will fall all that far in the draft. I would guess late first or early second round. The team that I think is most likly to take a gamble on him would be New England. They have a coupld of firsts and a couple of second round picks. WIth that mny early picks they can afford to take a chance and pick him up a bit earlier than others. And if he is able to succeed at the NFL level it will be a steal.

The Pats wouldn't touch him. They are only interested in character guys (no matter what the skill), and from what I have seen so far, he ain't one of him. Belichick already cleared house of the bad guys (see Terry Glenn) and I doubt they intend to risk going down that path again (especially wasting a first rounder). I'll settle for an RB down in the 4th round somewhere and use the high picks somewhere else or trade 'em for better picks in 2005.

Look, RBs are hard enough to judge after 3-4 years in college (see Ron Dane, Willam Green, etc. and the list goes on). Using a 1st or even a 2nd on a guy who played only part of one year in college is just plain stupid. Maybe he works out, but using a foresight alone, a high pick on him just doesn't make sense.

[rkmsuf]

I don't don't think that he will fall all that far in the draft. I would guess late first or early second round. The team that I think is most likly to take a gamble on him would be New England. They have a coupld of firsts and a couple of second round picks. WIth that mny early picks they can afford to take a chance and pick him up a bit earlier than others. And if he is able to succeed at the NFL level it will be a steal.

You haven't been following the Pats closely at all...

[Fido]

Count me as one of the minority who thinks Clarret will take the NFL by storm, and if Allowed will blow the scouts away at the combine. After putting up monster numbers in his workouts He will go in the top 15.

Now, will the NFL invite him to their Combine?
Well, Mel is projecting him a second rounder. He's been away from the game for a year, and that is really going to hurt him. Combine that with his inabliity to play a full college season, and I don't think you'll see many teams ready to take him as a feature back.

That said, though, a team that wants to run, but is incapable of it so they develop a short passing game that is as effective as a running game....Say a team with two first round and two second round picks this year...I like the Pats taking a chance on him with one of their first round picks.

[rkmsuf]

Well, Mel is projecting him a second rounder. He's been away from the game for a year, and that is really going to hurt him. Combine that with his inabliity to play a full college season, and I don't think you'll see many teams ready to take him as a feature back.

That said, though, a team that wants to run, but is incapable of it so they develop a short passing game that is as effective as a running game....Say a team with two first round and two second round picks this year...I like the Pats taking a chance on him with one of their first round picks.

Will never happen...

[Taur]

If, he is drafted by the Pat he will run for over a 1,000 yards next year and have a good chance at rookie of the year honors. I wonder what the NFL will have to say about there age policy then. Won't alowing players to enter the NFL early extend their careers?

Clarret is bigger, faster, strong, and is not 100% healthy after spending the last 6 months in a gym with his personal trainer. Sorry Charlie, but I am not buying this whole bad boy routine.

[rkmsuf]

If, he is drafted by the Pat he will run for over a 1,000 yards next year and have a good chance at rookie of the year honors. I wonder what the NFL will have to say about there age policy then. Won't alowing players to enter the NFL early extend their careers?

Clarret is bigger, faster, strong, and is not 100% healthy after spending the last 6 months in a gym with his personal trainer. Sorry Charlie, but I am not buying this whole bad boy routine.

Highlty doubtful it would extend their careers in a meaningful way. They could be hangers on sure but look at backs when they hit 30. What is that going to be 28 now?

My opinion of Clarett is that he is highly, highly overrated at this point. He had a good freshman season at OS but it wasn't like he was Ricky Williams or Barry Sanders out there.

Throw in the other 'stuff'(say whatever you want about bad boy image, you don't get suspended from the team for going to church) and you have a risky proposition. Maybe he'll do good, maybe he won't. I'd look for other backs that have similar talent all things considered.

If Belichick and the Pats bring him in then I would conclude that you are correct and that the bad boy stuff is overblown. That remains to be seen and I wouldn't bet on it...

[Fritz]

the success or failure of one person proves nothing about a system

[Buccaneer]

Doesn't character and integrity amount to anything these days?

[Fritz]

Bucc- a late round pick

[clintl]

Doesn't character and integrity amount to anything these days?

I think most people agree that Clarett is not the most sympathetic character in the world - he is certainly no Curt Flood.

However, focusing on Clarett's character misses the whole point about whether the NFL's policy is legal and fair. I don't for a second believe that their policy has anything to do with concern for the welfare of the athletes or for the quality of competition. It's all about preserving what amounts to a free player development system for the NFL by discriminating against a certain group solely on the basis of age, and that, to me, is a far more serious breach of character and integrity by the NFL than anything Clarett has done or been accused of.

If players aren't ready to play right out of high school, don't draft them. If they are, and they would prefer playing in the NFL to college, I don't see where the NFL has any legal right to deny them that opportunity, and if they do get drafted, that means at least one NFL team thinks they're ready to play. They should have that opportunity.

[Desnudo]

Doesn't character and integrity amount to anything these days?

I think it does to some teams, but talent is easier to quantify, so people fall back on it. If someone turns out to be a good guy it seems like it's considered a bonus by the media. Plus who is to say that some of the owners and staff of NFL teams have any more character and integrity than a Clarett does? Someone without their own sense of integrity won't have any trouble drafting someone with the same qualities.

But I don't think this is really a new phenomenon.

[Fritz]

as I look around, I find a number of jobs with age requirements

[Desnudo]

Don't you have to be 35 to be President?

[yabanci]

there's a big difference between a constitutional requirement and a group of businesses conspiring to exclude qualified players to protect their free minor league system.

[Samdari]

Count me as one of the minority who thinks Clarret will take the NFL by storm, and if Allowed will blow the scouts away at the combine. After putting up monster numbers in his workouts He will go in the top 15.

Now, will the NFL invite him to their Combine?

He will most definitely NOT put up monster numbers at the combine. He did not have "college breakaway speed" so he most definitely does not have "NFL breakaway speed" That, more than anything, will prevent him from moving up into the first round.

I would like to second mckerney's point about Onterrio Smith. Clarett in his most optimistic talent evaluation is nowhere near where Smith's was, and went in the fourth round. Without character concerns, Clarett is a second round talent, Smith was a first.

I also agree with clintl that Clarett's character not being an issue for the judge. Scumbags have the same legal rights as fine, upstanding individuals such as myself (ignore the fact that I am stealing all of your money to post here). Being a convicted felon does not affect what rights you have in civil court, nor should it. You may be less credible, but since this was a point of law, not a disagreement about the facts, his credibility was irrelevant.

And as for the mysterious "gambling connection" that is actually way overblown, not underreported. He knows a guy. This guy sometimes bets on sports on the internet. Wait, that applies to me. I would venture to bet (err, bad choice of words) that every division I athlete associates with someone who has placed internet bets. This is a complete non story.

[ISiddiqui]

It's all about preserving what amounts to a free player development system for the NFL by discriminating against a certain group solely on the basis of age

It's also to protect the players currently there. What do you think is going to happen if teams start drafting high school players and then develop them and put them on the inactive list.. the veterans get cut.

[BishopMVP]

Overall, I think this could lead to a declining product as the NBA has had happen with roster spots being taken up based on potential rather than current talent, so I hope the NFL doesn't start going down that road.

I also hope the Patriots don't draft Clarett.

[General Mike]

The guy who wrote the following article is clueless.

http://www.cfbnews.com/2004/Draft/Underclassmen_Pro_Prospects.htm

[Taur]

My opinion of Clarett is that he is highly, highly overrated at this point. He had a good freshman season at OS but it wasn't like he was Ricky Williams or Barry Sanders out there.Alright I will bite....What the hell are you talking about?


Clarett 2002 Freshman 1,237yds 16tds 5.6avg
Williams 1995 Freshman 0.0yds 0tds 0.0avg (RedShirt)
Sanders 1986 Freshman 325yds 2tds 4.4avg



Your logic escapes me???

[Easy Mac]

Man, too bad they didn't change the rule for Andy Katzenmoyer... got to love those smart OSU players.

[Vegas Vic]

Alright I will bite....What the hell are you talking about?


Clarett 2002 Freshman 1,237yds 16tds 5.6avg
Williams 1995 Freshman 0.0yds 0tds 0.0avg (RedShirt)
Sanders 1986 Freshman 325yds 2tds 4.4avg



Your logic escapes me???

I understand where you're coming from, but I believe that he was probably talking about talent rather than raw statistics. Also, keep in mind, during Barry Sanders freshman season at OSU he played behind a pretty decent guy named Thurman Thomas. Ricky Willams was redshirted his freshman year, playing behind a capable back by the name of Priest Holmes.

[Leonidas]

And as for the mysterious "gambling connection" that is actually way overblown, not underreported. He knows a guy. This guy sometimes bets on sports on the internet. Wait, that applies to me. I would venture to bet (err, bad choice of words) that every division I athlete associates with someone who has placed internet bets. This is a complete non story.

The gambling thing may or may not be overblown. However this is more than him knowing a guy who gambles. This guy who gambles also was a main part of Clarett's suspension. This guy gave Clarett a lot of freebies and even put him up in his house. This guy also happened to have much of his gambling action right after direct contact with Clarett right before games when Clarett's playing status was publicly in doubt. Seems highly likely CLarett tolds his close friend how he was feeling that day. Maybe just a coincidence, but a very interesting one to say the least. Like baseball, the NFL does not play when it comes to gambling connections.

[tucker342]

They can try it but I suspect that most teams will avoid most of these guys. There are so many needs for a football team and with the cap I can't see teams taking flyers on kids that may turn out good.


That's a very good point.

Even though it will probably have little effect on the league, I still hate to see the age restriction be taken away.