Grocery Store Strike [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

heybrad

10-13-2003, 02:11 PM

I'm curious regarding others opinions on this strike and unions in general. Maybe somebody should explain to me exactly what I'm not getting.

I had an interesting experience last night with all of this. I was coming home from my Sunday night hockey game and we needed a few groceries. Like most neighborhoods he have a few choices of stores to go to. Unfortunately, they are Vons, Albertsons and Ralphs, all of which are now on strike. Stater Bros is much further from where I live and it is way out of the way when coming home from hockey. So we decide to stop at Albertsons. We are greeted at the driveway first, where picketers are trying to block cars from entering the parking lot. I found this really interesting since the supermarket is not the only business in the parking lot. Slowly driving my car, I get past the line of people. Now its time to go into the store. I had the whole family with me. Now, keep in mind that I live near Seal Beach which has a large elderly community at a place called Leisure World and a lot of them work at this particular Albertsons. So we head for the door and we are immediately greeted by an old lady who starts yelling at my daughter (horrible choice) who is only 6 years old, "You need to tell your parents to shop at Stater Brothers." I'm guessing she chose my daughter to yell at because I'm a rather large imposing figure and maybe she figured I wouldnt react, which is funny because I really wouldnt have cared if they said anything to me. So now I'm pissed and I tell my wife to take the kids in the store. I tell this lady that I dont care what they're fighting for, but she better never yell at my kid again. Now all the strikers start heading for me. Again, it was 90% senior citizens so it wasnt a big problem, but they were yelling, calling me a "Scab" which I thought was strange. Isnt a scab the guy who takes their job during a strike? Anyway... to shorten this up, I had words with a few of them, headed inside, bought a few groceries and headed home.

Heres what I dont understand. Why go after your customers? Your fight is with management, not me. I get the simple answer that if I'm not there and the stores not selling anything they have more power. The store was fairly empty anyway, so me being there wasnt going to drastically change anything. What about the other side to this when they do go back to work? How many customers will they lose? Is bully tactics the number one tool of unions?

And dont even get me started on the fact that a grocery clerk is making close to $20 an hour to pass a can of corn over a scanner. Wheres the skilled labor in that?

The Afoci

10-13-2003, 02:20 PM

You should have went Pedro on the bitch and then had your daughter kick her in the head when she was down. Then, after you scare the mob with your vicious moves, look up, crazy like and ask, "Which one of you is bagging my fucking groceries?"

Franklinnoble

10-13-2003, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by The Afoci
You should have went Pedro on the bitch and then had your daughter kick her in the head when she was down. Then, after you scare the mob with your vicious moves, look up, crazy like and ask, "Which one of you is bagging my fucking groceries?"

Who says you have to have an excuse to do this? I'm going to try this at the grocery store on the way home, just for shits and giggles.

Drake

10-13-2003, 02:24 PM

Heh.

KWhit

10-13-2003, 02:29 PM

It is my personal opinion that labor unions have outlasted their need. There were times in the past when they were absolutely necessary, but today? Give me a break. Don't even get me started on the airline unions at United who drove the airline into bankruptcy.

The Afoci

10-13-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Who says you have to have an excuse to do this? I'm going to try this at the grocery store on the way home, just for shits and giggles.

That is a good point. That would make a great dynasty.

As I heard the 'clink, clink', I knew my first victim was drawing near. Her walker didn't help her defend my dropkick...

Airhog

10-13-2003, 02:39 PM

I think that unions could be a great tool, however they have to abide by the laws of human nature which make them less that ideal.

Case in point, I applied with a local union for an apprenticeship. I was lead on for several months, and got the impression that everyone who applied would be given a chance to get in. However, after my interview, I recieved a letter that I did not score high enough on my interview or my application to be placed on the list.

This has altered my perception in several ways. I dont like be lead on like this, and after speaking with a friend who works for the plumbers union, i further realized that unions are very selective about who they hire. You basically have to know someone who works at the union. I have decided to stay away from unions since I do not wish to do business with someone that uses those sorts of practices.

panerd

10-13-2003, 02:51 PM

One side of the coin: Unions create "status-quo" type work. This is especially true in teacher unions, which I rejoined after 5 years of "scab" teaching. A lot of NEA members don't belong in a classroom, but there are always two sides to a story...

Other side of the coin: It is really easy to group those Albertson's employees and grocery strikers in general. (Just like some have done with the NEA on this board) but I have had a completely different experience in Saint Louis. The local picketers boycott outside the shopping malls, nowhere near the store, and are very friendly to those who drive past.

What is my point? I think some union members, especailly those nearest the top, really take advantage of their union membership. But most people are hard-working and join a union to protect them when Chrysler decides to move all their factories to Mexico or the local factory decides to fire all of the people making $50,000 a year and replace them with people making $20,000. I think they are a neccessary evil who sometimes abuse their power, but for the most part are protecting their members from mass exploitation.

Drake

10-13-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Airhog
...after speaking with a friend who works for the plumbers union, i further realized that unions are very selective about who they hire. You basically have to know someone who works at the union.

Hmm. Not unlike the Freemasons.

Conspiracies abound!

albionmoonlight

10-13-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by panerd
I think they are a neccessary evil who sometimes abuse their power, but for the most part are protecting their members from mass exploitation.

I agree.

JeeberD

10-13-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by heybrad
And dont even get me started on the fact that a grocery clerk is making close to $20 an hour to pass a can of corn over a scanner. Wheres the skilled labor in that?

Huh? $20/hour?

Damn, I'm in the wrong business...

Franklinnoble

10-13-2003, 03:03 PM

I think collective bargaining is for the weak. I sure as hell don't want to have to pay dues to someone else to have them negotiate benefits for me.

Hammer755

10-13-2003, 03:07 PM

No bag boys are gonna stop Lenny from having a casual get together!!!

Draft Dodger

10-13-2003, 03:22 PM

a few years ago when I worked at a supermarket, some of our non-union stores went on strike.

I was one of a bunch of people bussed down to fill in - the union store we ended up working in was a pit; the place was just nasty dirty compared to the non-union stores up north. from talking to others at other stores, it was the same everywhere.

the consensus was that you couldn't get the union workers to do much beyond the essentials - our team scrubbed out the backrooms, and it was probably the cleanest the store had ever been (and will ever be) since it opened.

Abe Sargent

10-13-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by KWhit
It is my personal opinion that labor unions have outlasted their need. There were times in the past when they were absolutely necessary, but today? Give me a break. Don't even get me started on the airline unions at United who drove the airline into bankruptcy.

Take alook at Wal-Mart if you think that. There are some employees in need of a union.

-Anxiety

lurker

10-13-2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Hammer755
No bag boys are gonna stop Lenny from having a casual get together!!!

Heh. And from the same place that has a quote for every occasion:

"You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!"

WussGawd

10-13-2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by KWhit
It is my personal opinion that labor unions have outlasted their need. There were times in the past when they were absolutely necessary, but today? Give me a break. Don't even get me started on the airline unions at United who drove the airline into bankruptcy.

Wal-Mart employees, and employees of companies who've seen their livelihoods shipped to China would disagree with you.

Balldog

10-13-2003, 09:05 PM

UAW stands for U Ain't Workin

Buccaneer

10-13-2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by WussGawd
Wal-Mart employees, and employees of companies who've seen their livelihoods shipped to China would disagree with you.

Maybe that's one of the primary reasons why jobs went overseas (to much cheaper labor)? Unions demanded security in businesses that could not be secure.

larrymcg421

10-13-2003, 09:56 PM

Where the fuck are grocery clerks making $20 an hour?Thats at least three times as much as the average wage you'd find here in GA.

Balldog

10-13-2003, 10:42 PM

In the UAW case they have actually "sold out" their members by getting the Big 3 to agree to force suppliers to be UAW members. Essentially replacing old members with new, I find this funny because the guys I work with swear up and down by the Union. When the Union does not give a damn about them, they just want money from someone.

CamEdwards

10-13-2003, 11:01 PM

Larry,

CNN reports that Albertson's clerks can make $17.90 an hour (with time and a half on Sundays and double time on holidays) after two and a half years. Not sure what the starting salary for clerks might be.

clintl

10-13-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by larrymcg421
Where the fuck are grocery clerks making $20 an hour?Thats at least three times as much as the average wage you'd find here in GA.

Minimum wage is the average wage in Georgia?

clintl

10-13-2003, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Maybe that's one of the primary reasons why jobs went overseas (to much cheaper labor)? Unions demanded security in businesses that could not be secure.

Plenty of non-union companies (including the one I work for) are shipping jobs offshore, too. It is happening at an alarming rate in the electronics industry, which is one of the least unionized industries in the country. This is not something you can blame on the unions.

MrBug708

10-13-2003, 11:25 PM

How about the Longshore Union? Cost the economy a billion dollars a day when they were on strike.

Abe Sargent

10-13-2003, 11:28 PM

I'm UAW at a closed shop (University). I have a masters degree, I run a three building complex, I teach a political science course, yet for some f'ed up reason, I have to pay dues to the f'in AUTO WORKERS.

-Anxiety

daedalus

10-13-2003, 11:29 PM

Apparently, the "start" wages are in the $12-14 range and the "top" casher makes around $18. At least, this is according to the local newspaper.

I'm getting kind of annoyed that I can't seem to find the "whole picture" (what the stores are offering and what the unions want) so that, y'know, I can decide on my own which side I hate more. Only bits and pieces and the local paper (Long Beach Press-Telegram) seems to be doling out details in bits and pieces. I guess the other big part that annoys me is that I don't feel like I'm getting both sides of the story.

So far as I can tell from what I can glean from P-T . . .

The Stores haven't asked the aforementioned wages to be cut. Though, I guess they aren't offering much for raises. The Union are wanting 50 cents raises after sometimes or something.

The Stores want the employees to pay for part of the benefits, according to P-T, something along the line of $5 per week for individuals. The Union wants status quo (which would be no pay).

The Stores want the plan to be changed to include a part where the individual is responsible for the first $75 (with the plan covering the rest) for something in the medical plan. The Union also wants status quo here.

Does anybody else know more information?

daedalus

10-13-2003, 11:35 PM

This is the [ article (http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~21474~1694629,00.html) ] that's in the Press Telegram today that I got the information above from.

McSweeny

10-13-2003, 11:36 PM

shit? 12 bucks to start as a cashier? not too shabby

daedalus

10-13-2003, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by KWhit
Don't even get me started on the airline unions at United who drove the airline into bankruptcy.Sorry, not trying to start an argument or disagree with you . . . I just really don't know. I was under the impression that the 3 employee unions had agree to the cuts that would've kept the company afloat until they found out about the executives voting themselves big bonuses of all sort. Was that the wrong information?

daedalus

10-13-2003, 11:43 PM

The $12 would be awesome. The fact that they get benefits is what has me majorly envious.

SunDancer

10-14-2003, 12:44 AM

Now, do you like unions generally? Are businesses pro-union or non-union.

Ragone

10-14-2003, 06:04 AM

You all are forgetting... the cost of living in California is like double what it is in other parts of the U.S.. To give you a example.. Cashier Manager at a local grocery store tops out at 14$ a hour after 3-4 years here in Kc area price chopper (non union).. and thats a Management level posistion.. no idea on checkers.. but i'd imagine its 8 a hour to start

Unions serve their purpose.. and without them.. big business would exploit skilled/unskilled labor and make them work in shitty/dangerous conditions without any say, lay them off at any time.. and pay shit poverty line wages.

That being said.. Some unions do go to far.. some people in unions exploit the union to their benefit.. unions do protect some shitty employee's who really don't deserve to be protected.. but everyone is entitled to protection since they pay the same dues.

Subby

10-14-2003, 07:05 AM

Working in a grocery store 40 hours per week is a lot harder than what most of you sitting-on-your-ass-surfing-the-net-all-day schlubs do for a living.

Everyone on this board should take a 10% paycut and mail the difference to that old woman that tried to beat up Heybrad's daughter.

KWhit

10-14-2003, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by WussGawd
Wal-Mart employees, and employees of companies who've seen their livelihoods shipped to China would disagree with you.

I don't know what you specifically mean about Wal-Mart employees. If the job sucks, they should find another job. At some point, Wal-Mart will have to start treating their employees better in order to find quality employees.

In my way of thinking, a business should have the opportunity to do what it wants to do regarding employment (as long as they aren't breaking the labor laws on the books).

Tons of jobs are shipped overseas. The IT industry (my field) does it constantly. I don't particularly like it, but I don't buy the thought that unions are the answer. I don't even understand how unions keep this from happening. Do they? How?

If I own a business, I should be in charge. NOT THE EMPLOYEES. I hate it when a union holds a company hostage. An employee has a choice! Find other work!

panerd

10-14-2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by KWhit
I don't know what you specifically mean about Wal-Mart employees. If the job sucks, they should find another job. At some point, Wal-Mart will have to start treating their employees better in order to find quality employees.

In my way of thinking, a business should have the opportunity to do what it wants to do regarding employment (as long as they aren't breaking the labor laws on the books).

Tons of jobs are shipped overseas. The IT industry (my field) does it constantly. I don't particularly like it, but I don't buy the thought that unions are the answer. I don't even understand how unions keep this from happening. Do they? How?

If I own a business, I should be in charge. NOT THE EMPLOYEES. I hate it when a union holds a company hostage. An employee has a choice! Find other work!

I take it that you are firmly opposed to the screen actor's guild?

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by clintl
Minimum wage is the average wage in Georgia?

For grocery clerks? Yup.

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Sorry, not trying to start an argument or disagree with you . . . I just really don't know. I was under the impression that the 3 employee unions had agree to the cuts that would've kept the company afloat until they found out about the executives voting themselves big bonuses of all sort. Was that the wrong information?

A better example would be Eastern Air. They were put under by thier Union.

KWhit

10-14-2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by panerd
I take it that you are firmly opposed to the screen actor's guild?

You are correct. As I stated in the acting thread, 80% of its dues-paying membership make less than $5000 per year from acting.

My wife pays dues - she is an actor in the unions, but she gets little to nothing out of it.

Subby

10-14-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
For grocery clerks? Yup. Every single grocery store clerk in Georgia makes minimum wage?

Can I please see your supporting research?

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Subby
Every single grocery store clerk in Georgia makes minimum wage?

Can I please see your supporting research?

That's not what was said. The average starting salary for a grocery clerk is right at minimum wage.

Glengoyne

10-14-2003, 11:45 AM

When the farm laborers union strike grapes every once in a while, I make a point of going to where ever I see them stirking, and visit that store. I walk in, and buy grapes. I then walk out of the store, popping them in my mouth as I walk through their lines. I usually have to go back to buy a paper or something, so I cross their lines multiple times. I haven't had a striker say as much as Boo to me. It would really piss me off if one of them did. Hell it would really piss me off if they blocked the driveway too.

I think Unions can serve some good, and I think they do serve a good purpose. I believe they also step way over their bounds, and do much actual harm to the companies that fill their coffers. The Longshormen strike, someone mentioned above that it cost the economy a billion dollars a day. I do not know how it was resolved, but I do know that it came about because the union didn't want to lose jobs to computers. The ports are switching to a software/hardware solution that will greatly speed the loading, unloading, and storage of containers. The solution was going to save them Millions of dollars because they could do the same work more efficiently with fewer people. The Union said NO. I am sorry but the Union shouldn't be running the show.

My sister works for the California Teachers Association, THE teachers union in CA. We have very interesting family get togethers.

CraigSca

10-14-2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Glengoyne
My sister works for the California Teachers Association, THE teachers union in CA. We have very interesting family get togethers.

Don't even start with teacher's unions :rolleyes:

Can't find the link to it now, but on cnn.com yesterday there was a link to a school teacher and teacher's aide who were literally taping their elementary schoold students to the floor. The teacher's aide was dismissed immediately when word got out. However...the teacher is (from what I remember) being "re-assigned". Gee, why is that!?

panerd

10-14-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by CraigSca
Don't even start with teacher's unions :rolleyes:

Can't find the link to it now, but on cnn.com yesterday there was a link to a school teacher and teacher's aide who were literally taping their elementary schoold students to the floor. The teacher's aide was dismissed immediately when word got out. However...the teacher is (from what I remember) being "re-assigned". Gee, why is that!?

Obviously this one teacher is characteristic of all teachers in the union. :rolleyes: So one can clearly see why teacher unions are so bad for this country. As I stated earlier in this thread it seems like we are making a lot of mass generalizations and blaming organizations for the actions of a few. (Like the lady who came after Heybrad's kid, or the idiot teacher who taped her kid to the floor, or entire Boston community for Pedro beating up an old man :D )

Chief Rum

10-14-2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
That's not what was said. The average starting salary for a grocery clerk is right at minimum wage.

Actually, since wages can't go below the minimum wage, for the average clerk's salary to be minimum wage, every clerk's wage would have to be that level. If any were higher, the average would no longer be minimum wage, but higher.

So, although I think he did incorrectly challenge you on your point before, he actually has a point. :)

I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other, though. Just pointing that out.

CR

Chief Rum

10-14-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by CraigSca
Can't find the link to it now, but on cnn.com yesterday there was a link to a school teacher and teacher's aide who were literally taping their elementary schoold students to the floor. The teacher's aide was dismissed immediately when word got out. However...the teacher is (from what I remember) being "re-assigned". Gee, why is that!?

Hey, I don't have kids, so maybe this wouldn't strike me this way if I did, but did anyone else laugh at the image of an unruly kid being taped to the floor?

"Stay in your seat, Bobby, or I'll tape you to the floor! That's right...I'll put you underneath the pencil sharpener."

CR

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Actually, since wages can't go below the minimum wage, for the average clerk's salary to be minimum wage, every clerk's wage would have to be that level. If any were higher, the average would no longer be minimum wage, but higher.

So, although I think he did incorrectly challenge you on your point before, he actually has a point. :)

I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other, though. Just pointing that out.

CR

I was making a vast generalization and not a precise written thesis on the subject. I know that it could not possibly be that the average would be exactly minimum wage, but I dare say that 50%+ of grocery clerk jobs here start at minimum wage, as much as 75% of fast food jobs do. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who is a department manager at a local grocery store with ten years experience. He is making $12 an hour, the average starting pay listed above for these stores.

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 02:29 PM

By the way, I actually did go and research. The actual median salary for a retail cashier (which would include more than groceries) was 7.00 an hour. Not exactly minium wage, but very close to the three times less than the $20 dollar an hour mentioned above.

Glengoyne

10-14-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by panerd
Obviously this one teacher is characteristic of all teachers in the union. :rolleyes: So one can clearly see why teacher unions are so bad for this country. As I stated earlier in this thread it seems like we are making a lot of mass generalizations and blaming organizations for the actions of a few. (Like the lady who came after Heybrad's kid, or the idiot teacher who taped her kid to the floor, or entire Boston community for Pedro beating up an old man :D )

I don't think you have to go after specific individual cases regarding teachers unions. I think they have established a pretty good track record of being political organizations with an agenda. Eventhough that agenda is always protrayed as being "all about the children", it is really mostly about protecting political and financial turf.

clintl

10-14-2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I don't think you have to go after specific individual cases regarding teachers unions. I think they have established a pretty good track record of being political organizations with an agenda. Eventhough that agenda is always protrayed as being "all about the children", it is really mostly about protecting political and financial turf.

And how is this different from other organizations? Unions exist to promote and protect the interests of their members. That is their purpose. To expect them to act otherwise is not realistic, nor is it something they should be condemned for doing. There are thousands of organizations other than unions that do exactly the same thing for their members without the controversy.

Samdari

10-14-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
That's not what was said. The average starting salary for a grocery clerk is right at minimum wage.

Math alert: That is impossible unless everyone starts at the minimum. Since clerks don't make tips, I would assume noone makes less than the minimum.

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Samdari
Math alert: That is impossible unless everyone starts at the minimum. Since clerks don't make tips, I would assume noone makes less than the minimum.

Please read the rest of the thread beforte responding. You know, it is amazing there are at least 3 huge generalization in this thread besides this one, yet I have been attacked by three different people. I WASN"T BEING PRECISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GrantDawg

10-14-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by GrantDawg
By the way, I actually did go and research. The actual median salary for a retail cashier (which would include more than groceries) was 7.00 an hour. Not exactly minium wage, but very close to the three times less than the $20 dollar an hour mentioned above.

Glengoyne

10-14-2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by clintl
And how is this different from other organizations? Unions exist to promote and protect the interests of their members. That is their purpose. To expect them to act otherwise is not realistic, nor is it something they should be condemned for doing. There are thousands of organizations other than unions that do exactly the same thing for their members without the controversy.

True, but other organizations don't usually hold up the front that their actions are for the benefit of the children. They zealously pursue courses of action that benefit themselves(The union and their members), and claim to be doing so to "benefit the children". Really what they are doing is benefiting themselves or furthering a political agenda without any real regard for the impact on the children. I can hold up a few examples of this. Classroom size, Bilingual education, and School Choice are examples.

There have been studies that show that the legislated reduced classrom sizes in California haven't made any difference in how well the children learn. But it does provide for hiring more teachers, and less work load for those said teachers. The benefits of a Smaller classroom size seem like they should be obvious, but have yet to be illustraded in practice.

Bilingual ed...This is an example of furthering a political agenda. Teaching students in their own language is not as beneficial as teaching them english, and then "mainstreaming" them into a regular curiculum. The union here in California dismissed any notion that this might be true, and instead chose to call the move away from bilingual ed racism. They pandered to the hispanic vote, just like Gray Davis did recently with his license law.

School Choice. Here the Union claims to want to protect underprivileged children who want to attend private schools. Nevermind that those underprivileged families want their children to attend private institutions, because those private schools are superior to the public schools the union wants to shove down the parents and the childrens throats. Here the Unions move to protect their own piece of the pie, at the expense of the children.

The unions aren't, by any stretch of the imagination, the biggest problem with public education today, but they do move to protect that system because they have a vested interest in it's continued existence.